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February 26

Hip hop song stubs

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename both from 'single' to 'song'. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 ( talk) 16:20, 29 March 2019 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: For stub-sorting purposes, I don't see much of a need to distinguish between song stubs and single stubs, unless there is a significant difference between the number of songs that aren't released as singles and songs that are. For the most part, I would think most hip hop songs from the 2000s and 2010s are going to be singles but the more logical initial diffusion from Category:Hip hop song stubs would be by decade with the same parameter ("song" rather than "single"). For example, Category:2000s rock song stubs was created a year before Category:2000s rock single stubs (and I'm not sure there's really much difference between how those are being used). Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars Talk to me 23:26, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply
I found one of the original discussions on the singles/songs stubs distinction (here), and also there's this note on the Category:Singles (music): "Articles about music singles. Individual songs should not be listed here, nor should they get categorized by categories of the types "Singles by [artist]" or "[Artist] singles". Instead, songs should all go under subcategories of Category:Songs by artist." Just FYI. Her Pegship ( speak) 01:02, 1 March 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Support - Support per Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 18:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Support : The distinction between song and single is irrelevant in this context. I was just looking up this category so I could add the appropriate stub to an article, and I was searching using the term "song." Jmertel23 ( talk) 13:19, 21 March 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Support Comment - Many songs with articles are singles. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 13:40, 21 March 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Support: the infobox template {{ Infobox single}} has been deprecated and song articles all use {{ Infobox song}} now, regardless of whether they are a single or not... likewise, there's no need to specify that a song is a single, for stub sorting – the article is about a song, period. Richard3120 ( talk) 17:20, 28 March 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Jewish activists

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep ( non-admin closure). For the record, a discussion in 2016 about this category was also closed as keep. Marcocapelle ( talk) 07:05, 6 March 2019 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: The term "activist" is so vague and the category so broad that it is neither meaningful, nor helpful to anyone. Many of the more narrow sub-categories are fine. Jayjg (talk) 23:11, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Saturday Night Live players

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: has already been deleted ( non-admin closure). Marcocapelle ( talk) 07:09, 6 March 2019 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:PERFCAT. Has been deleted before. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 23:10, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1962 Border Conference football season

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete ( non-admin closure). Marcocapelle ( talk) 07:11, 6 March 2019 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: empty category; the Border Conference folded before the 1962 football season, so this is a non-existent entity. Jweiss11 ( talk) 18:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Social problem films

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Films about social issues. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 00:57, 10 March 2019 (UTC) reply

Nominator's rationale: Awfully vague... — swpb T •  go beyond •  bad idea 17:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Islamic dress

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename all. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 01:00, 10 March 2019 (UTC) reply

Nominator's rationale: Per the main article, Islamic clothing, which was moved to the present title following a move discussion. This was previously declined at speedy, so I am bringing it here. -- Black Falcon ( talk) 20:05, 18 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Marcocapelle ( talk) 06:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Relisting comment, the subcategories have been added to the nomination. Marcocapelle ( talk) 06:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Support - per nom. Oculi ( talk) 10:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Christian denominations active in Germany

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 03:35, 10 March 2019 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: upmerge per WP:OVERLAPCAT, the scope of this category largely overlaps with its parent category. Marcocapelle ( talk) 18:39, 4 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Upmerge per nom. Brandmeister talk 20:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete both I just do not see a justification of categorizing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by every country it has a presence in. This is the type of thing that can be handled by a list, but not an article. Even more so because categories always apply. So for example The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article would have to be put in categories where it once operated but does not currently. This is just a headache causing mess as a category, but manageable and doable with by country list articles, that can specify things like times of operation, number and percentage of adherents, number of congregations and related useful statistics. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 08:07, 5 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Presumably you mean further upmerge, don't you? Without merging, all subcategories become orphaned, and that is probably not the intention. Marcocapelle ( talk) 11:59, 5 January 2019 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There is consensus this category shouldn't remain, but no clear consensus on where it should be merged.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Rob13 Talk 05:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Merge per nom for now. The question of merging both to something else ought to be left for a separate discussion. One of these has a LDS article. While I have no time for their beliefs, I see no reason why the article should not exist and be in the category. Peterkingiron ( talk) 16:48, 27 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Merge. Invertedly, perhaps a "Defunct" category could be added, as is the case for some dioceses etc. PPEMES ( talk) 22:18, 7 March 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:African-American football quarterbacks

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to both parents, i.e. to Category:African-American players of American football and Category:American football quarterbacks .
Those favouring keep were slightly outnumbered by the delete supporters, but WP:NOTVOTE. Both sides presented arguments well-founded in policy. The keep side was boosted by impressive evidence that "African-American football quarterbacks" is recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right on which an encyclopedic head article could be written. That satisfies WP:EGRS#General.
However, those favouring removing the category pointed to WP:FINAL RUNG, which says "an ethnicity/gender/religion/sexuality/disability subcategory should never be implemented as the final rung in a category tree, unless the parent is (or will become) purely a container category". That does apply here, and my reading of WP:EGRS is that the "never" in that text applies even if the distinct-and-unique-cultural-topic test is met.
So on the balance of both numbers and of policy-based arguments, I weigh this as a weak consensus to merge.
To facilitate anyone who wants to make a list, I will list the category's contents on this day's talk page. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 04:04, 10 March 2019 (UTC) reply
List as promised is at WT:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 February 26#Category:African-American_football_quarterbacks. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 04:10, 10 March 2019 (UTC) reply

Nominator's rationale: Not a defining characteristic per WP:CATDEF; non-notable intersection of race and football position Natureium ( talk) 16:10, 3 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete the ERGS rules say avoid the lowest level intersection. This is especially true of ethnicity categories often applied more as race categories. Unless you can convince me that men like Ezekiel Ansah who never set foot in the US before college are being excluded from African-American categories I am unconvinced they are anything other than race categories. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 08:02, 5 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and make it a sub-category of Category:African-American players of American football. Aside from that category, we also have similar categories (e.g., Category:Jewish golfers, Category:Female bullfighters). I know, WP:OSE, but the quarterback position in the NFL has historically (and to this day) had very few AA players. AA QBs, and their rarity, are often discussed by reliable sources, and cited as an example of systemic racism. When an individual AA QB is written about in the media, it's often noted that they are one of the few AA QBs. I think in this case, AA QB is a notable sub-category of AA football players, per RSes. For example: [1] [2] [3] [4] Levivich ( talk) 21:28, 9 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and listify. Per WP:OCEGRS, there needs to be potential for a substantial article (not just a list) for the topic to be made an ethnic-based subcategory. I don't think it is the case here, however a list would be admissible IMHO. Place Clichy ( talk) 19:36, 22 January 2019 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There is consensus here to get rid of this category, both by numbers and by strength of argument. Further discussion should ideally focus on whether it's worth listifying this, since that possibility emerged later in the discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Rob13 Talk 05:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • The need of a separate list for quarterbacks is questionable. A more general list of African-American footballers (in which the position may also be mentioned) sounds more natural. Marcocapelle ( talk) 17:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Additional comment – I think this category is a defining characteristic, or a notable intersection of two defining characteristics, for the reasons explained in our article Racial issues faced by black quarterbacks. I added about 40 articles to Category:African-American football quarterbacks. The articles in this category all (or almost all) mention that the subject is a black quarterback (often the first black quarterback on their team). Here are some quotes:
    • There has been a mountain of heartbroken, talented would-be black quarterbacks who were “converted” to defensive backs and wide receivers. Constrained by the wrongheaded notion that brains and extraordinary athletic ability were incompatible, generations of blacks were deemed too talented, in some eyes, to play quarterback or not cerebral enough to play the position.
      —  The Undefeated

    • Over the history of the NFL, which was founded in 1920, black athletes for decades weren’t given a chance to play quarterback. Talented black college quarterbacks, especially those from historically black colleges and universities, were converted to defensive back or wide receiver. But when Doug Williams led the Washington Redskins to the championship 30 years ago and was named Super Bowl MVP, it seemed to end once and for all the odd question of whether black NFL quarterbacks could succeed.
      —  Raleigh News and Observer

    • All these years later, he was still proud of Williams, whose name to some may be that of a half-remembered player from the past but to millions of others remains a powerful symbol of progress. It stayed with me, and it seemed that it was worth telling the story not just of Williams, but of everyone—of all those generations of players who struggled so that Russell Wilson could be, simply, a good young quarterback. So the Deadspin staff set out to find and name every single black quarterback ever to play in the NFL. ... Though black NFL quarterbacks make up one of the smallest fraternities in all of sports, no one anywhere had ever compiled an exhaustive list. No one knows the names of every black quarterback ever to play in the NFL for sure, including us.
      —  Deadspin's "Big Book of Black Quarterbacks"

    • Marlin Briscoe didn’t want to be pigeonholed simply because of stereotypes against black men. He was a star quarterback in college and he believed he had the talent, intelligence and leadership skills to be one in the pros. Fifty years ago, during an era of massive social upheaval in the United States, just getting a chance to prove it took a risky ultimatum. ... Briscoe’s groundbreaking accomplishments were somewhat lost in the shuffle during one of the most transformative years in U.S. history. ... But Briscoe’s legacy resonates among his contemporaries 50 years later, hitting on race as well as the pressures athletes face in pro sports. The Pro Football Hall of Fame calls Briscoe the first African-American starting quarterback in modern pro football history. Carolina’s Cam Newton and Seattle’s Russell Wilson have both considered Briscoe’s past as they contend for championships. Doug Williams, the first black quarterback to win a Super Bowl, counts Briscoe as one of his most important inspirations.
      —  AP News

    • It’s not a secret that the quarterback position in the NFL has historically been dominated by white players. ... Despite the lack of black starting quarterbacks in the past, there were certainly many players who paved the way for these aforementioned names. Here is a list of the best black quarterbacks of all time.
      —  Complex

    • It is no secret that in the early days of the NFL, the owners and coaches were very reluctant to give the reigns of a team to a black player. As recently as 2007, the New York Giants had never had a black quarterback throw even a single pass. In 1934, there was an informal ban on black athletes. ... Still, the abolishing of the ban did not do a whole lot to help enable blacks to play the quarterback position. ... After [Doug] Williams' selection, there was a drought for black QBs entering the league. It took five more years to see another black player drafted for the quarterback position. It wasn't until the 1980s that the black quarterback became a little more acceptable, yet still not very common. As the 80s and 90s progressed, however,  so too did the acceptance of black quarterbacks.
      —  The Sporster

And books:
  • Jordan, Billy Joe (2005). N.F.L. Black Quarterbacks Underrated. AuthorHouse. ISBN  9781420896657.
  • Martin, Wisdom T. (2003-04-01). Intentional Grounding: The History of Black Quarterbacks in the NFL. AuthorHouse. ISBN  9781403395535.
  • Rhoden, William C. (2007-01-30). Third and a Mile: The Trials and Triumph of the Black Quarterback. ESPN Books. ISBN  9781933060118.
  • Williams, Doug (1990). Quarterblack: Shattering the NFL Myth. Bonus Books. ISBN  9780929387475.
It seems to me like it should be a category and stand-alone list (there are 100+ on the Deadspin's Big Book), but if that's not the consensus, I hope there's at least consensus for keeping a list of black quarterbacks somewhere, perhaps in Racial issues faced by black quarterbacks or Black players in professional American football, or as a stand-alone list. Leviv ich 23:23, 5 March 2019 (UTC) reply
I started List of black quarterbacks. I will be adding to it. There are 100+ sourced examples out there, I think each of which already have an article here. Leviv ich 23:01, 9 March 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Most articles included, like Jacoby Brissett, have no sources that indicate the person's ethnicity. This opens up a whole host of issues, especially for living people. IMO, sorting by ethnicity is a terrible mess of BLP violations. This category in particular should be deleted per nom.-- TM 12:05, 6 March 2019 (UTC) reply
The sources supporting the addition of those articles to the black quarterback category are listed above and/or in the articles themselves. Leviv ich 02:06, 9 March 2019 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.