Category:Members of the Council on Foreign Relations
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:do not restore Members category, and purge the parent category. I processed this as a deletion and then restored selectively as suggested by GO'F below. For the diffs, see
[1]. –
FayenaticLondon 23:59, 28 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This category was
deleted back in 2007, which was probably a mistake then but clearly seems to have grown into a mistake now, as
Category:Council on Foreign Relations is now being misused as a catch-all for the members thereof. Back in 2007, someone claimed that the manual list that existed at the CFR page (which now exists at its own page,
Members of the Council on Foreign Relations) is a better place, but I disagree. As of 2014, the CFR has almost 5,000 members, probably half or more of whom have a Wiki page. It makes little sense to maintain a list of such people manually when a category could do the work. (Note that I'm not suggesting a merge. The existing CFR category serves its own purpose.) -
Bbny-wiki-editor (
talk) 23:38, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment/question. There was a pretty strong consensus to delete the category. What would be the rationale for reversing that decision, apart from you disagreeing with it and
Category:Council on Foreign Relations being misused as a category for members?
Good Ol’factory(talk) 05:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Five votes for deletion on a site with thousands of contributors hardly constitutes a consensus, but I know others will disagree with that. It seemed like a classic case of "I don't like this" rather than a decision rooted in Wikipedia policy. It makes no sense to try to maintain a potential 2,000-person list manually when a category would do the work. Most importantly, since the current CFR category has been misused over 100 times by Wiki editors who clearly expect there to be a "Members of the Council on Foreign Relations" category, restoring this category would solve multiple problems while creating none. -
Bbny-wiki-editor (
talk) 23:14, 8 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, to be fair, there were seven votes for deletion, versus one for keeping. In my view, seven votes for deletion certainly does constitute a fairly strong consensus, especially at CFD. I don't know what site have you been editing on, but I've been closing discussions on Wikpedia for a number of years now, and if I saw that discussion, I would regard it as a strong consensus to delete. And a category doesn't "do the work" at all. Articles still have to be added to the category, just as they would have to be added to a list. I don't think it was an "IDONTLIKEIT" situation at all: basically, what the users were saying is that this is a non-defining characteristic for individuals categorized. And that is probably the most basic principle of Wikipedia categorization/overcategorization.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 08:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
It's a lot easier to add a category than it is to add to a list and then make sure it's properly alphabetized, etc. Beyond that, the idea that a 7-1 vote in favor or against anything is a "strong consensus" just shows how silly these discussions typically are, with only a tiny fraction of editors even aware of their existence. -
Bbny-wiki-editor (
talk) 00:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
No one's forced to participate. If you feel they are silly, you don't have to be here either. What I think is silly is that you think that we should be able to ignore a 7-1 decision because you disagree with it. Regarding a 7-1 decision as consensus may not be an ideal situation of community decision making, but ignoring it because one user disagrees with it would be worse.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:39, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename --FRom
Category:Council on Foreign Relations to
Category:Board Members of the Council on Foreign Relations. The article indicates that there are a significant number of Board members, all covered in articles, and no dount there have been others in the past. Categories of this kind are liable to pick up people with a marginal association with an organisation. Mere membership should not be sufficient for categorisation. Any people who never were board members shoudl be purged. I do not think it will be necessary to re-create the prsent category as
Council on Foreign Relations will make a suitable main article for a category on Board Members.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:15, 9 December 2014 (UTC)reply
The current CFR category serves a purpose, so renaming it doesn't seem to make sense. As for the "Board Members of ..." suggestion, that seems like an overly narrow category, plus it would undoubtedly require constant policing due to erroneous use. There are pages and pages of "Members of ..." categories on Wikipedia, for organizations of far less importance and prestige than the CFR and with far fewer (notable) members. It's unclear to me why this category was ever deleted. -
Bbny-wiki-editor (
talk) 03:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Do not re-create. I'm not convinced that re-creation of the category is justified. For starters, I believe that a person being a member of this group is a non-defining characteristic for that person, so the category fails the most basic principle of categorization (see
WP:DEFINING). The solution here is to purgeCategory:Council on Foreign Relations and then patrol the category and remove bio articles for people who are members. It's an unpleasant task but it beats giving up by just re-creating an unjustified category.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 08:30, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
You can't be serious. You want to delete the category for CFR? There are literally pages and pages of "Members of ..." categories on Wikipedia, and CFR probably ranks in the top 2% when it comes to membership and prestige. Are we going to delete hundreds of other categories, or is this a one-off "I don't like it" that you want to enforce? -
Bbny-wiki-editor (
talk) 00:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
I'm not clear on what you're talking about. I'm not saying anything should be deleted. I'm saying
Category:Members of the Council on Foreign Relations should stay deleted. Your proposal is to restore the category; my !vote is to oppose that action. I'm saying we should purge the members from
Category:Council on Foreign Relations, since it is not a membership category. I'm not suggesting it be deleted; it's fine to exist to contain the main article, the list article for members, and the subcategories. You keep throwing out allegations of "IDONTLIKEIT", but I've provided a guideline-based reason for agreeing with the deletion. You have not provided a guideline-based reason for restoring it. Arguing that other stuff exists that is just as bad is, well, an
WP:OTHERSTUFF argument.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:36, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Okay, in that case, I'll nominate you to perform those 100+ deletions. -
Bbny-wiki-editor (
talk) 04:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
What deletions? Do you mean removing the category from the articles? If so, I would be happy to make sure that happens.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Right. That's not an automated process, is it? I wouldn't mind editing the category as an improvement, but that sort of deletion-only housecleaning almost seems like a waste of time, especially if it's not automated. -
Bbny-wiki-editor (
talk) 05:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
It could be automated with the right bot. Alternatively, as a roundabout way of accomplishing it, we could just have the standard CFD deletion bot remove everything from the category and delete the category. Then the category could be immediately restored by an admin and populated with the few articles and subcategories that actually belong.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 06:03, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Asian medical television series
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: This proposal is to upgrade this category to four “by country” categories, as this category is not a subcategory of any category relating to Asian health or Asian television. There are already three Asian countries in the parent category.
Hugo999 (
talk) 22:18, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose -- The proposal is to split the category, but it only has about eight members, which means that it is not large enough to need splitting. The best solution will be to keep it, but ensure that all members are categorised in the form
Category:Singaporean television series.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:19, 9 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose per small size of current category.
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment: As 5 of the 8 are from Singapore, with 1 each from Malaysia, Taiwan and Japan (& 2 more Japanese series in the parent category. I will amend to create a category for Singapore and propose to merge the others into the parent category. As I said before, this category is not in any categories relating say to Asian health , so I can see no justification for retaining it. PS: There may be some justification for an “Asian” category for some TV shows/series eg
The Apprentice Asia but these are mainly syndicated shows (eg Masterchef, Top Model or Dancing with the Stars) or news and business shows. I don’t think it is necessary for categories like this one. And most television categories are by country only but not by continent, so any continent categories need not include country categories as subcategories.
Hugo999 (
talk) 03:28, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Youth in Armenia
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:keep. –
FayenaticLondon 23:51, 28 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Delete this as it serves no purpose. There is already one sub-category "Youth sport in Armenia" Hovhannes Karapetyan 21:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Oppose per Hugo; I have also added another subcategory and 1 more article and I am sure there are other articles which can be added or written in this topic.
Tim! (
talk) 07:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lhasa Prefecture
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge. –
FayenaticLondon 22:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Lhasa (just like Shigatse and Chamdo, which I made separate speedy nominations, but the situation with the Lhasa category hierarchy is more complex) is a prefecture-level city, and the former "non-city prefecture" does not exist as such. Therefore, to conform with actual status (as well as article title), the category should simply be "Lhasa." (I say that the situation is a bit more complex than Chamdo and Shigatse because as merged the Lhasa category should actually be a subcategory of the parent categories of the current Lhasa Prefecture category; however, that can be relatively easily fixed in the post-merger process.) --
Nlu (
talk) 15:23, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Related categories that should be renamed as part of the process:
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Category:Prefectures of Tibet
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Conceptually, there might be potentially a difference (as prefecture-level divisions include prefecture-level cities), but there is no reason I can see for there to be two categories that are effectively identical to each other as implemented. --
Nlu (
talk) 15:17, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Support Prefecture-level divisions will by design incorporate prefectures, so this is the most sensible option given the existence of something like city-prefectures.
SFB 19:31, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Howie B albums
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Oppose - if something is described as an 'album' that's good enough isn't it? Anyway, a
Category:Mixtape albums would contain, erm, albums, wouldn't it? It's in the
Category:Albums tree after all. Howie B seems to be a well established DJ with a significant back catalogue, so there's scope to populate this category.
Sionk (
talk) 12:22, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep Found a couple articles on Howie B albums, Turn the Dark Off and Down with the Dawn, which were never categorized by the artist. That should satisfy the requirement of
WP:ALBUMS. --StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 21:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Elliot Goldenthal
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete, contents are interlinked, and are insufficient to justify an eponymous category, see
WP:OCEPON. I have added category links into the article, which also has a link to the Commons category with the portraits. –
FayenaticLondon 22:13, 28 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Only two subcats and one main article--all of which are already interlinked. —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 09:59, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete, with thanks to
user:Koavf for interlinking the contents before nominating the parent. –
FayenaticLondon 18:19, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:English people of Carib descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:double upmerge. –
FayenaticLondon 22:34, 28 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Merge. Seems to be a bit premature, per
WP:SMALLCAT to resort to subcategorise
Category:British people of Carib descent when there is only one article in the entire category tree. Caribs, aka
Kalina people are a new one on me, but I guess there's a slim chance there's more than one notable Carib in the UK.
Sionk (
talk) 04:11, 7 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Though Caribs seem to be more South American than West Indian (I'd say not at all West Indian).
Sionk (
talk) 00:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Double upmerge per Fayanetic (or even plain delete) -- This is about the categorisation of a person living in England, apparetnly without a drop of English blood. Her article claims 5 descent ethnicities including Guyana.
Carib is a disambiguation page, which distinguishes
Island Carib from those of South America. In the islands, there has been so much interbreeding between the native Caribs and people of African descent, that I doubt whether there are many people who can call truly themselves Caribs. The situation is perhaps a little less stark in Guyana. We have no citation for the lady's ethnicity. How amny generations back did she have a pure Carib ancestor?
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:59, 9 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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Welsh people of Berber descent
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The result of the discussion was:merge. –
FayenaticLondon 22:38, 28 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Yes, so double upmerge is unnecessary.
Sionk (
talk) 14:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete/merge -- Thea rticle says that the one member is of Berber Moroccan origin, with a piped-link to Morocco. There are several Berber groups in the countries of the African north coast. Berber is an ethnicity; Moroccan is a nationality. Since we do not like triple intersections, the article should have a series of double ones.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:05, 9 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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