- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 22:13, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Masked Mystery Villain
Note: This article has been moved since the beginning of the deletion discussion from Masked Mystery Villain to Mystery villain as a more appropriate title of the topic.
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Masked Mystery Villain ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article has been unsourced since 2006. Notability of topic is in question. Coin945 ( talk) 05:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Arts-related deletion discussions. Coin945 ( talk) 05:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 09:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- Speedy keep, the nominator does not propose a valid
WP:DEL-REASON. The nominator does not say which notability guideline this article fails to meet.
SailingInABathTub (
talk) 10:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
-
SailingInABathTub, Please familiarize yourself with our policies. The rationale is completely fine - the ops, I mean, yours is wrong.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 05:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Please familiarise yourself with WP:BEFORE. Block nominating articles without doing this is WP:DE. SailingInABathTub ( talk) 11:07, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
-
SailingInABathTub, Please familiarize yourself with our policies. The rationale is completely fine - the ops, I mean, yours is wrong.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 05:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Wikipedia does not have a grandfather clause. We need sources for everything. Unless someone can put forth sources we need to delete this. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Delete.WP:OR about an fictional archeotype. Which could be notable, but no sources are given, nor did my BEFORE find any. The term exists outside Wikipedia but unless someone shows it has been defined and received WP:SIGCOV, well, there's not much we can do. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC) PS. Sources found by Daranios seem to indicate potential for saving this. I am not yet convinced enough to vote keep, but I am no longer confident voting delete either. Looking forward to seeing more sources, preferably in the improved article itself. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:51, 17 April 2021 (UTC)- Keep. Article has been moved to a more suitable title, which is substantiated by sources: the term "Masked Mystery Villain" returns virtually nothing apart from this article, which to me indicates a good deal of OR went into its title, but the concept of masked villains as a genuine stock character in serials and horror films is backed up by at least two sources I was able to find with minimal effort. It is no longer unreferenced, which was the sole complaint in the nomination.
jp×
g 08:25, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
-
JPxG, Per my comment below, the title is not substantiated by sources. The ones added to the article fail SIGCOV by a longshot.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 03:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @
Piotrus: I exhort you to read further: that book source mentions it in a good bit further depth. There's the abstract on p. 145, but there's also, for example, this from p. 146-147:
The Exploits of Elaine’s combination of a fictional detective, a murder plot, a masked master villain, and gunslinging action seem to prefigure elements that were to become generic to later film serials, especially in the 1920s and 1930s
and on p. 150 we haveThis narrative strategy entails a large number of close-ups of objects, which enables the film’s viewers to trace the villain’s steps before the arrival of the detective
. jp× g 04:29, 15 April 2021 (UTC)- And then there's also pp. 170-171, where it is discussed what consequences the use of a masked villain has for the filmmaker, use of camera, and engagement of the viewer.
Daranios (
talk) 07:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
-
Daranios, Would you mind providing the most relevant quote, or a link to the page view?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 01:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @
Piotrus: "The surveillant camera perspective occasionally poses a problem for a narrative that continuously promises but serially defers the identification of its cloaked master villain. The camera depicts the villain and his actions from the beginning and thus always threatens to prematurely reveal his identity. ... allowing the villain and the camera to engage playfully with notions of masking and unmasking. ... highlights its dialectic of surveillance and concealment ... foregrounds the camera angle and the serial’s visual technique of hiding the villain in plain sight. .. Such scenes tease the viewers, foster their interest in the villain’s identity ... and underline the filmmaker’s capacity to decide when to reveal the villain’s face. ...remind viewers that an image of the villain’s face would be informative indeed." Hope that was not too long for copyright reasons. The whole story can be seen at
the link you already provided, if you'd like to scroll down to pp. 170-171. To show that such analysis is not specific to the series that source focusses on, compare
Film Sequels p. 56: "...defines a particularly engaging spectatorial activity because of the repeated concept of a masked villain who hides..."
Daranios (
talk) 07:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- JPxG, I have read the quote provided, but unfortunately, I do not see how it meets SIGCOV, it's a classic example of mention in passing. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @
Piotrus: "The surveillant camera perspective occasionally poses a problem for a narrative that continuously promises but serially defers the identification of its cloaked master villain. The camera depicts the villain and his actions from the beginning and thus always threatens to prematurely reveal his identity. ... allowing the villain and the camera to engage playfully with notions of masking and unmasking. ... highlights its dialectic of surveillance and concealment ... foregrounds the camera angle and the serial’s visual technique of hiding the villain in plain sight. .. Such scenes tease the viewers, foster their interest in the villain’s identity ... and underline the filmmaker’s capacity to decide when to reveal the villain’s face. ...remind viewers that an image of the villain’s face would be informative indeed." Hope that was not too long for copyright reasons. The whole story can be seen at
the link you already provided, if you'd like to scroll down to pp. 170-171. To show that such analysis is not specific to the series that source focusses on, compare
Film Sequels p. 56: "...defines a particularly engaging spectatorial activity because of the repeated concept of a masked villain who hides..."
Daranios (
talk) 07:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
-
Daranios, Would you mind providing the most relevant quote, or a link to the page view?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 01:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- And then there's also pp. 170-171, where it is discussed what consequences the use of a masked villain has for the filmmaker, use of camera, and engagement of the viewer.
Daranios (
talk) 07:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @
Piotrus: I exhort you to read further: that book source mentions it in a good bit further depth. There's the abstract on p. 145, but there's also, for example, this from p. 146-147:
-
JPxG, Per my comment below, the title is not substantiated by sources. The ones added to the article fail SIGCOV by a longshot.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 03:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per
JPxG, the improvements made and the secondary sources found. As
Piotrus has stated, even the original term "Masked Mystery Villain" exists, and in my opinion it would be great to present that in some form on Wikipedia, but sources were hard to come by. For "Masked Villain", two more sources the search finds are
Film Sequels: Theory and Practice from Hollywood to Bollywood and
Masks in Horror Cinema: Eyes Without Faces. The latter seems to be a book-length treatment of the
Mask#Horror film section. It is unfortunately not searchable, so the amount that refers explicitly to "Masked Villain" is not immediately clear. But this article seems the right spot to split out and expand a
Mask#Horror film section that is probably to large to fit into
Mask if that source was properly used.
Daranios (
talk) 10:55, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
-
Daranios, The first source you found may contain some discussion, but we need to confirm it first - we can't assume the coverage goes beyond one-two sentences, it may or may not. The second does not seem to use the term 'masked villain' at all as far as I can tell (it appears searchable to me)?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 03:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Piotrus In the section of Film Sequels that I can see there are indeed only two sentences, giving the basic definition of the concept, and, like "Detectives, Traces, and Repetition in The Exploits of Elaine" pp. 170-171 as described above, what avenue the trope provides for the engagement of the viewer.
- Masks in Horror Cinema: The book can tell us something about the masked villain in sections that talk about use of the mask in horror film without mentioning the term. Or in other words, where on Wikipedia would you put such information instead of here? But the previews alone give non-trivial treament including the term: "the iconography of a black clad, masked villain soon typical in both horror cinema and pulp fiction", "One of the great clichés of postmodern horror spawned from the series is the trope of the masked villain who almost always returns in the sequel, despite apparently being killed", "Masked villains as guardians of puritanical sexuality becomes a staple of the slasher subgenre..."
- Lastly, these were the first promising-looking secondary sources I could find under the new search term. Have you or the other holders of a deletion opinion already carried out a
WP:BEFORE search (which looks rather tedious here, separating trivial mentions from relevant ones) for the new term?
Daranios (
talk) 07:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Another secondary source, the PhD thesis
The Cinematic Boogeyman: The Folkloric Roots of the Slasher Villain, concentrating on the Slasher film, says that a significant portion of that genre depends on a masked villain: "slasher film feature a villain who is psychologically distanced from the audience/reader: the killer ... remains unknown and unknowable (he is a gloved hand, he wears a mask, he is a silhouette), or else he is a 'maniac'" (p. 64), "often involved a masked killer" (p. 95), "the figure of Death that is manifested in the form of a masked and/or disfigured villain" (p. 187). While Masks in Horror Cinema names
Poe as one source for the trope, this thesis points to the
bogeyman as inspiration, and talks about what the implicates: "The mask is utilized extensively in filmic depictions of the Boogeyman to convey the fact that he is psychologically removed from the other characters in the narrative." (p. 195) So again, I think there would be
a lot to write about in this article if existing secondary source would be properly exploited.
Daranios (
talk) 11:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, You are likely right; I'd rather have an article on this too. For now, I've withdrawn my vote. Thanks for the source search, hopefully you'll have time to add them to the article :) --03:18, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Another secondary source, the PhD thesis
The Cinematic Boogeyman: The Folkloric Roots of the Slasher Villain, concentrating on the Slasher film, says that a significant portion of that genre depends on a masked villain: "slasher film feature a villain who is psychologically distanced from the audience/reader: the killer ... remains unknown and unknowable (he is a gloved hand, he wears a mask, he is a silhouette), or else he is a 'maniac'" (p. 64), "often involved a masked killer" (p. 95), "the figure of Death that is manifested in the form of a masked and/or disfigured villain" (p. 187). While Masks in Horror Cinema names
Poe as one source for the trope, this thesis points to the
bogeyman as inspiration, and talks about what the implicates: "The mask is utilized extensively in filmic depictions of the Boogeyman to convey the fact that he is psychologically removed from the other characters in the narrative." (p. 195) So again, I think there would be
a lot to write about in this article if existing secondary source would be properly exploited.
Daranios (
talk) 11:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
-
Daranios, The first source you found may contain some discussion, but we need to confirm it first - we can't assume the coverage goes beyond one-two sentences, it may or may not. The second does not seem to use the term 'masked villain' at all as far as I can tell (it appears searchable to me)?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 03:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep The references that JPxG added are more than suitable to denote notability. Meanderingbartender ( talk) 11:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Moving articles during an AfD discussion would seem in general to be a disruptive behavior that muddies all the discussion of the issue. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:52, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- I have added notes about the move to avoid confusion as suggested in such a case by the " You may edit the article during the discussion" guideline, which specifically allows for such a move. So I think in combination with the notes this is not disruptive behaviour. When it helps us to identify if the topic may actually meet WP:GNG after all, it is instead laudable in the spirit of improvement before deletion, as seen in Wikipedia's WP:ATD policy. Daranios ( talk) 15:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. The article has now been referenced, but the sources are very weak. The first is
a book chapter that mentions the term 'masked villain' twice in passing (once in the abstract), never defining or analyzing it. The mention in the text is a simple plot summary of some fictional work: "Kennedy and Jameson try to capture and identify the masked villain in a pursuit that covers the serial’s fourteen episodes". This is a far cry from
WP:SIGCOV. The second reference added is, likewise, another mention in passing, if in an academic work
[1]. The one and only sentence in that article that mentions the term goes "In Scream, the identity behind the masked villain is not immediately known to the audience." I am afraid that any claims that 'the article is now improved' need to do MUCH better than this. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 03:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- There's more in that reference than a passing mention; you can see my above comment for more explanation.
jp×
g 04:30, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- JPxG, I have reviewed the quote provided and so far I am sorry, but it reads like a passing mention exactly. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- There's more in that reference than a passing mention; you can see my above comment for more explanation.
jp×
g 04:30, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per @ SailingInABathTub:, @ JPxG:, @ Daranios:, and @ Meanderingbartender:. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 20:14, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per the sources demonstrated in this discussion, and by other editors who precede me. Haleth ( talk) 12:07, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Note for the closer: This article has been moved since the beginning of the deletion discussion from Masked Mystery Villain to Mystery villain as a more appropriate title of the topic.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.