- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The proposed redirect target does not seem to exist, but no objection to redirecting this if there is another suitable target. Randykitty ( talk) 11:22, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Henderson Mill Road
- Henderson Mill Road ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Article fails to meet WP:GNG; no independent reliable sources are present to attest to the notability of this road. The recent additions about the "notoriety" of the road regarding the "McMansion"are a classic case of assuming notability by inheritance. Such content might support notability of that specific structure, but it does not make the road notable. The remainder of the content about the road can be summed up by the first sentence: "For a number of years, Henderson Mill Road was indistinguishable from the many nondescript streets of the north-eastern suburbs of metropolitan Atlanta." The attempts to distinguish it are unsourced, so that attempt fails WP:GNG as well. Imzadi 1979 → 16:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Georgia (U.S. state)-related deletion discussions. NORTH AMERICA 1000 17:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. NORTH AMERICA 1000 18:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Comment. I support that anyone who wants to test this road's notability for a Wikipedia article must focus on finding how frequently mentions of this road occur online that are not:
- Maps
- Directories
- Driving directions
- Wikipedia mirrors
- Any fifth category?? Georgia guy ( talk) 18:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Delete - Unremarkable suburban road. Dough 48 72 18:30, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- I affirm my delete vote as the information added implies the surroundings of the road are notable but not the road itself. Remember, the road itself needs to have notability in order to demonstrate it should have its own article. From the looks of this, this is an average suburban road that just happens to pass several notable landmarks. Dough 48 72 02:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
- Premature. Once the article was listed as a possible candidate for deletion, I undertook an effort to add content. Within hours of that initial effort, and before I could even complete the initial work,
Imzadi1979 posted here. The historic significance of this road (information recently added) is enough to support notability. A map and references have been added. More to come. Slow down. AGAINST
Gulbenk (
talk) 18:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Being old doesn't make something notable. My parents' house has been in the family since 1896, yet I can't write an article about it because I don't have "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" to use to cite such an article.
Notability can't be inherited, so the mill does not make the road notable, nor does the "McMansion" mentioned in the nomination statement. The information regarding the name of the mill, the troops that visited it, and the demolition of the mill pond would all establish notability, for the mill, not the road. You need "significant coverage" about the road "in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" of the road. If this road were on the National Highway System, you might be able to argue notability, but that's not the case. Imzadi 1979 → 19:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Right. And you are ignoring the road as one of a very few early commercial thoroughfares (eminating from the mill), moving people and goods and providing a route of communication, in the formative years of the county, and as a later route for conquest. Like the river highways of Colonial times, or commercial corridors of 19th century railroads, this road is significant in the context of history, and subsequent development of the area. Your parent's house didn't do that. It is shortsighted to simply dismiss it as an "unremarkable suburban road".
Gulbenk (
talk) 21:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Where are those sources for those claims? They aren't in the article, and depending on the situation, you haven't met the burden for a separate article about the road. You may have met the notability burden for mentioning the road in a history of the county, or mentioning it in the history of the mill. However, the hurdle for a separate article on the road itself is higher.
Imzadi 1979
→ 22:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- A great number of "reliable sources independent of the subject" have been added to the article, but their additions are in vain.
- The three webpages from The Historical Marker Database are not about the road itself, although the one marker tangentially mentions the road; these do not support notability under WP:GNG.
- Two webpages from the school district support details tangential to the road; no WP:GNG support here.
- A book from the University of Georgia Press is used to reference a detail about a creek along the route of the road, plus two direct quotes related to the mill; no WP:GNG support here either.
- Various news articles from publications like the North Druid Hill/Briarcliff Patch (questionable on the reliability scale); the New York Post and the Times Newsweekly (both about the notoriety of the owner of a house along the road, which doesn't translate into notability about the road); No WP:GNG support here.
- A book from the Georgia Department of Archives and History only backs information about the county, not the road; again, no WP:GNG support here
- Webpages from The City of Tucker Initiative, Tucker Historical Society, Ohio State University Department of History, City of Briarcliff Initiative (COBI) Information, LaVista Hills YES!, Trulia, and the District Attorney of Queens County, New York, have nothing to do about the road, and instead deal with history of the mill, the county or some murder case several states away that has a tangential connection to a house along the road. None of this is WP:GNG support for an article on a road.
- An entry from a blog called Northlake Station and hosted on Blogspot is not reliable at all, so it fails all parts of the WP:GNG test except independence from the subject.
- That leaves three sources dealing with the road: Google Maps, the road classification page from the Tucker Civic Association and the FHWA National Highway System map. For a road that is not on the NHS or the state highway system, these fail to establish WP:GNG-level notability.
- Now, compare this article to
M-1 (Michigan highway) where there are actually articles about M-1 (Woodward Avenue), books written about it, and chapters or references that are directly about the road itself, and not just about something next to the road. Yes, the article discusses other things along the road, but in putting things into context as to why M-1 is a
Pure Michigan Byway and National Scenic Byway/All-American Road, designations that encompass the immediate surroundings.
Other articles on state highways may not have this level of coverage (like M-28), but those articles are necessary to have a complete coverage of the Michigan State Trunkline Highway System and its components. Imzadi 1979 → 18:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
- A great number of "reliable sources independent of the subject" have been added to the article, but their additions are in vain.
- Where are those sources for those claims? They aren't in the article, and depending on the situation, you haven't met the burden for a separate article about the road. You may have met the notability burden for mentioning the road in a history of the county, or mentioning it in the history of the mill. However, the hurdle for a separate article on the road itself is higher.
Imzadi 1979
→ 22:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Right. And you are ignoring the road as one of a very few early commercial thoroughfares (eminating from the mill), moving people and goods and providing a route of communication, in the formative years of the county, and as a later route for conquest. Like the river highways of Colonial times, or commercial corridors of 19th century railroads, this road is significant in the context of history, and subsequent development of the area. Your parent's house didn't do that. It is shortsighted to simply dismiss it as an "unremarkable suburban road".
Gulbenk (
talk) 21:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
- Being old doesn't make something notable. My parents' house has been in the family since 1896, yet I can't write an article about it because I don't have "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" to use to cite such an article.
- Delete I don't see anything that makes the road itself notable. As Imzadi1979 said, a lot of this would be better suited for a history of the surrounding area. T C N7JM 19:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I think we have a good sampling of the WikiProject U.S. Streets opinion here. Coming from the WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state) point of view, I believe that the subject matter, the road, is the only way to present the disparate subjects (mill, people, commerce, communication, history, transportation, politics) in a coherent manner. There doesn't seem to be any disagreement that those separate elements are notable. Yet, as presented, each is tied directly to the road, and the road to them. Would WikiProject U.S. Streets have objection to this article if the road was designated as (currently) important to the nation's economy, defense, and mobility? Likely not. I have demonstrated that this road was important to the area's economy, defense, and mobility during the formative years of the 19th century. That historical significance is notable, and notability is not transient. Whatever this forum may think of the road, today, historic notabilty endures. But it seems that the majority of opinions expressed here are based on a different metric. I'll accept that as the way you think. I only ask, that several days from now when an administrator makes the final review, that arbiter not have any ties to either WikiProject U.S. Streets or WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state). Gulbenk ( talk) 00:40, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
- There's a big difference in your analogy: the National Highway System is the "network of roads that are important to the nation's economy, defense, and mobility", while you're talking about a road that was important to a local area over a century and a half ago. Assuming said level of notability is permanent, you're talking the difference between nation and area, and that doesn't equate to surpassing the notability threshold. Imzadi 1979 → 18:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
- Delete, the road itself isn't notable. I'm sorry, because the article seems to be a labor of love, but still. Bishonen | talk 21:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC).
Any chance this article could be maintained, with a change of title, such as History of Henderson Mill Road? That would take it out of the domain of roads, per se. Gulbenk ( talk) 22:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- Redirect. Since there seems to be a lot of information about the mill, we could redirect this page to just Henderson Mill. Hope this would work. Martin4647 ( talk) 23:25, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.