- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Modussiccandi ( talk) 07:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Archduke Leopold Franz of Austria
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Same issue as in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Archduke Sigismund of Austria (born 1966) (the son of this article's subject): An ordinary person who apparently has an article because he holds a long-extinct (indeed, by now fictitious) title of nobility. Such titles do not confer notability, see WP:MONARCH. The contents of the article are entirely genealogical, see WP:NOTGENEALOGY. Nothing in the article suggests notability per WP:BIO, and a Google News search for his German title and name (Erzherzog Leopold Franz) reveals nothing. It's also worth noting that he has no article in the German-language Wikipedia. Sandstein 08:38, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Royalty and nobility-related deletion discussions. Sandstein 08:38, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Austria and Germany. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 09:18, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nom, only genealogical information, no indication of notability (and I couldn't find anything in-depth by searching). Not by itself a reason for deletion, but the article doesn't seem to include his legal name and title in Austria (probably something like Mr Leopold Franz Habsburg?) —
Kusma (
talk) 13:57, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to deleting this biographical article on Archduke Leopold Franz of Austria, as it has interest for those interested in the history of the House of Hapsburg, and the Hapsburg Empire.....M.C. O'Connor
76.24.137.110 (
talk) 22:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see any connection to the Habsburg empire. —
Kusma (
talk) 07:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- For those of us interested in the history of the Empire, it provides a connection between Medieval times with the present-day....M.C.O'Connor
76.24.137.110 (
talk) 11:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- They might apply for the head of the house, but he was at best, a head of a junior branch. 2600:387:8:F:0:0:0:B5 ( talk) 23:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- For those of us interested in the history of the Empire, it provides a connection between Medieval times with the present-day....M.C.O'Connor
76.24.137.110 (
talk) 11:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see any connection to the Habsburg empire. —
Kusma (
talk) 07:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Why would the article include information about his legal name in Austria? He was born in Germany, lived in Uruguay and the United States, and claimed to be the head of a grand ducal house in Italy. Noel S McFerran ( talk) 00:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to deleting this biographical article on Archduke Leopold Franz of Austria, as it has interest for those interested in the history of the House of Hapsburg, and the Hapsburg Empire.....M.C. O'Connor
76.24.137.110 (
talk) 22:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Delete more deposed monarchy cruft. He was born well after the monarchy ended.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 13:44, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Deposed Monarchy information is a link between the past and the present, and continues to be of historical interest and relevance.....M.C.O'Connor 76.24.137.110 ( talk) 15:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Retain this article needs to be improved, not deleted. Archduke Leopold Franz was head of his house, and was referred to as such in reference books on the topic. The fact that some people don't like the topic and think that all material on that topic should be removed from Wikipedia is not an argument that should be considered.
Noel S McFerran (
talk) 16:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have any reliable sources about Mr Habsburg that would confirm he meets the
WP:GNG? —
Kusma (
talk) 16:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- I've added the citation for an obituary (not the paid type) in La Nazione (as well as several other sources). Noel S McFerran ( talk) 00:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have any reliable sources about Mr Habsburg that would confirm he meets the
WP:GNG? —
Kusma (
talk) 16:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Delete consists purely of genealogical/family information sourced to a directory of European royal families (
WP:NOT#DIR) and a website which doesn't look like a
reliable source. It's also at least a little dubious for the article to refer to him as "Archduke Leopold Franz of Austria" since it admits that Austria hasn't recognised any such thing for over a hundred years.
Hut 8.5 16:44, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Then modify the article to omit the 'Archduke' and 'Austria' references, and make it simply 'Leopold Franz of Hapsburg', because it still has historical validity, for those interested in the current state of the House of Hapsburg.
Windemere2 (
talk) 17:47, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- This historical validity here being
that he is a descendant of notable people?
JBL (
talk) 18:39, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, and notable himself as well, as a representative of the historic House of Hapsburg.
Windemere2 (
talk) 19:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- He is deceased, so he doesn't represent the current state.
2600:387:8:F:0:0:0:67 (
talk) 18:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Being deceased doesn't mean he no longer represents the House of Hapsburg. Look at all the deceased individuals who have biographies on Wikipedia, and represent the institutions that they were once part of. This is reminiscent of the difference between nationality and ethnicity. Nationality represents the current citizenship of an individual. Ethnicity represents their biological and historical descent for as far back as it's traceable, and down to the present. Both are of interest and relevant to their contemporary descendants. Look at all the google references from the public asking "Are there any current descendants of the Hapsburgs ?" or " Is the House of Hapsbburg extinct ?" There is quite a bit of public interest in the current state of the House.
Windemere2 (
talk) 21:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a genealogical database, not even for descendants of defunct royal families. If it is not possible to write an encyclopedic biography of someone, then there shouldn't be a Wikipedia article about them, regardless of who googles what. -- JBL ( talk) 22:42, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- The argument that he represents the current state of the house, seems like a stretch as the current state would refer to its living members, of whom he is not one, so if anything, he would represent a former state of the house. 2600:387:8:F:0:0:0:B5 ( talk) 23:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Being deceased doesn't mean he no longer represents the House of Hapsburg. Look at all the deceased individuals who have biographies on Wikipedia, and represent the institutions that they were once part of. This is reminiscent of the difference between nationality and ethnicity. Nationality represents the current citizenship of an individual. Ethnicity represents their biological and historical descent for as far back as it's traceable, and down to the present. Both are of interest and relevant to their contemporary descendants. Look at all the google references from the public asking "Are there any current descendants of the Hapsburgs ?" or " Is the House of Hapsbburg extinct ?" There is quite a bit of public interest in the current state of the House.
Windemere2 (
talk) 21:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- He is deceased, so he doesn't represent the current state.
2600:387:8:F:0:0:0:67 (
talk) 18:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, and notable himself as well, as a representative of the historic House of Hapsburg.
Windemere2 (
talk) 19:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- This historical validity here being
that he is a descendant of notable people?
JBL (
talk) 18:39, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Then modify the article to omit the 'Archduke' and 'Austria' references, and make it simply 'Leopold Franz of Hapsburg', because it still has historical validity, for those interested in the current state of the House of Hapsburg.
Windemere2 (
talk) 17:47, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Note I have made some updates to the article, including an obituary from La Nazione, the main newspaper in Florence. Noel S McFerran ( talk) 00:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
RetainI'm requesting that this article be retained. Windemere2 ( talk) 00:43, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Delete Very little non-genealogical content.
2600:387:8:F:0:0:0:67 (
talk) 18:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- That is factually incorrect. More than half of the content is non-genealogical. The genealogical content is appropriate for a prince who claimed (and was recognised) as Head of the House of Lorraine in Tuscany.
Noel S McFerran (
talk) 18:45, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Only one paragraph doesn't have some sort of genealogical content. In any case, it needs to be established that the page meets Wikipedia:Notability (people). 2600:387:8:F:0:0:0:B5 ( talk) 23:09, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- That is factually incorrect. More than half of the content is non-genealogical. The genealogical content is appropriate for a prince who claimed (and was recognised) as Head of the House of Lorraine in Tuscany.
Noel S McFerran (
talk) 18:45, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- He was not "recognized" as a prince, a recognized prince has a domain he controls, this person did not. Just being recognized as the top claimant to a title with no domain or power is of no meaning.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 14:17, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure what's involved by "recognition". Not all princes/archdukes control a domain. 'Prince' or 'Archduke' can also be honorifics, or courtesy titles, or indicate a position in a family line of succession.
Windemere2 (
talk) 11:46, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- The title "Archduke of Austria" is a specific, and fictitious, claim. "Indicating a position in a family line of succession" is precisely what
WP:NOTINHERITED rules out. --
JBL (
talk) 12:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Then that would speak to revising the article rather than deleting it.
76.24.137.110 (
talk) 15:45, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Moreover, 'inherited notability' isn't necessarily the sama as 'a line of succession'.
Windemere2 (
talk) 15:55, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- The family was deposed and removed from power before his birth. There is no real title to hold. It is a fictious false title. People who hold fictitious false titles are not notable for such, period. He did not actual hold a recognized title within a recognized power. the family was deposed before his birth, thus this is deposed monarchy cruft.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 16:58, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- It is a courtesy title or honorific. Windemere2 ( talk) 17:15, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- A 'courtesy title' (see Wikipedia) is a title used by custom or courtesy. It especially applies to nobility. It might be comparable to an honorary college degree, although those come by award, rather than through custom.
Windemere2 (
talk) 17:21, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be confused with a 'substantive title', which I think is the kind of title you're referring to above. However, the clarification could be added to the article that the title is 'courtesy' and not 'substantive'.
Windemere2 (
talk) 17:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- I've no objection to "Archduke" being removed from the title of the article, and the fact that it is a courtesy title rather than a substantive (real) one, could be explained in the body of the article. Windemere2 ( talk) 17:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be confused with a 'substantive title', which I think is the kind of title you're referring to above. However, the clarification could be added to the article that the title is 'courtesy' and not 'substantive'.
Windemere2 (
talk) 17:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- The family was deposed and removed from power before his birth. There is no real title to hold. It is a fictious false title. People who hold fictitious false titles are not notable for such, period. He did not actual hold a recognized title within a recognized power. the family was deposed before his birth, thus this is deposed monarchy cruft.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 16:58, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Moreover, 'inherited notability' isn't necessarily the sama as 'a line of succession'.
Windemere2 (
talk) 15:55, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Then that would speak to revising the article rather than deleting it.
76.24.137.110 (
talk) 15:45, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- In Germany, "Prinz" is not a title, just a part of the surname of some people. —
Kusma (
talk) 19:12, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- That's right."Erzherzog von Osterreich, Prinz von Toskana" are part of the surname, as shown in the article. They aren't shown as titles.
Windemere2 (
talk) 20:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Any source for that? In comparison, dewiki calls his grandfather de:Peter Ferdinand von Österreich-Toskana. — Kusma ( talk) 20:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- That's right."Erzherzog von Osterreich, Prinz von Toskana" are part of the surname, as shown in the article. They aren't shown as titles.
Windemere2 (
talk) 20:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- The title "Archduke of Austria" is a specific, and fictitious, claim. "Indicating a position in a family line of succession" is precisely what
WP:NOTINHERITED rules out. --
JBL (
talk) 12:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure what's involved by "recognition". Not all princes/archdukes control a domain. 'Prince' or 'Archduke' can also be honorifics, or courtesy titles, or indicate a position in a family line of succession.
Windemere2 (
talk) 11:46, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.