Case Opened on 01:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Case Closed on 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Case amended by motion on 02:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
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When I first saw the dispute on talk page, going around the question, whether Latvia was occupied by the USSR or not, I thought it wasn't a real content dispute. A couple of users, me included, have removed the POV-title tag and non-compliant tag added by some users, and even reported admin noticeboards, believing Irpen's, Grafikm fr's & others' acts would qualify as improper use of dispute tags. That's so because the side who doesn't accept the claim, that the USSR occupied Latvia, has not provided any verifiable sources, that would undermine the accepted opinion. Also, it has not been clearly explained, in what way is the article non-compliant. However, this seems to qualify as content dispute, not abuse.
In my view
PS. Some users have claimed, as if this were a pure content dispute. However, one should note that a content dispute requires grounded opinions by both disputing sides, i.e verifiable sources must be cited by both sides. As it is, those who claim Latvia was not occupied, have NOT found ANY sources, they merely add tags, which they 'motivate' with their own inventions. I think this is WP:OR or soapboxing. Constanz - Talk 09:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC) Could someone please explain me, how can a dispute be resolved, if one side refuses to recognise WP:V and WP:NPOV (e.g majority POV)? Constanz - Talk 09:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Purely a content dispute. The article is a mess, a textbook example of WP:TE. Its composition is a set of loosely related events arbitrary pasted together to create this article in its current shape thus making the history look even more tendentiously presented. Article's title is purposefully inflammatory. Article is full of original research and is unimprovable. The well explained tags are there to warn the reader about the article's problem. I would have AfDed that stuff but from experience AfD is usually decided based on the general validity of topic ignoring the article's having nothing to do with that. Article RfC was filed and the casual onlookers also offered changes, including the title change [4] [5] and compared the article's guardians' approach to Holocaust denial. None of the suggestions were implemented. So, every reason to keep the warning tags are there since the changes that would have made an article more compliant were fiercely opposed. That the uninvolved users saw the article's deficiencies proves that the tag was well justified.
If arbcom is to insert itself into this purely content dispute, its attention to the matter would be welcome, at least from me. Suggestions and objections at the talk are given in detail and arbcom members are invited to join the discussion. Maybe it's time for arbcom to change its traditional stance on refusal get into the content disputes. If so, I have a dozen of much more important irreconcilable articles and I will be happy to bring them to the ArbCom's attention. -- Irpen 14:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Some members are committing tag abuse to vandalise the article because in their personal opinion the title is purposefully inflammatory. By tagging the title POV they are effectively pushing their own POV that occupation did not occur and are giving undue weight to their own POV. They offer no verifiable references to support this alternative POV, just opinion and speculation. Many other contributors have provided references that Latvia was indeed occupied, including mainstream encyclopedias such as Britannica and Encarta. The article is not an arbitrary collection of loosely related events, but a tightly related sequence of occupations that occurred during WW2, in any case this point is not a POV-title issue but one of editorial style. Only one section is claimed to be OR not the whole article, so a section level OR tag is more appropriate. The article level tags are usually placed with no explanation or without sufficient explanation and certainly no verifiable references to an alternative POV are given. Some members have admitted their preference to AfD the article, but given difficulty in this approach, have resorted to vandalising the article via POV-title tagging. The article is a mess because of this continuing ongoing focus upon the title, which is probably the intent of this POV-title tagging, to stall progress in developing this article. Martintg 21:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This is beyond a mere content dispute. The issue concerns the abuse of the spirit of WP:NPOV, the intent of which is to reflect views held in common usage, by certain individuals who apply POV-title tags to promote a particular political view point that is not widely held. They offer no published source to support their implied alternative POV, which would be constructive in forming a consensus. Disinterested comment in Third Opinion and the rfcs agree that title is NPOV. Exhaustive discussion has been made on talk page regarding the term "occupation". There seems to be a core group of three individuals who seem to be immune to all evidence and third opinion and seem intent on persuing a dogmatic position. Application of article level POV tags is meant to be constructive, however in this particular case it is being used destructively because the one applying the tag has indicated a preference that the article be deleted entirely, so I don't think they are approaching this issue in good faith. Martintg 23:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
As one of the authors, having combined two prior articles. I have already responded at length to Irpen's objections regarding the structure being a mess, I have clearly stated it is still a work in progress that has only thoroughly dealt with the first year of Soviet occupation. (There has also been discussion, since there is an article on the Nazi Occupation, that this would be devoted to the Soviet occupation alone for improved clarity.) I have also apologized for having to put in "why an occupation" because of all those who insist "occupation" is a POV term while providing not one single shred of evidence to support that position. I have posted requests on all three Baltic States discussion pages (where this sort of dispute has also occurred) inviting ANYONE with ANY evidence to the contrary that has ANY basis in fact to present it for discussion. There has been ZERO response.
The Occupation of Latvia lasted from the first Soviet occupation through the entire Soviet era. The Soviet presences in Latvia were an occupation for their entire duration until the reestablishment of the Latvian Republic continuous with that established in 1918. This position is accepted by the international community except by Russia, whose declaration by Russia's Duma I have cited. There is no other discussion of the alternate viewpoint, which, though I personally vehemently disagree with, would actually be quite informative: that is, why is it exactly that Russia denies the Soviet occupation? Especially when Lavrov was negotiating during the Soviet era with the Baltic S.S.R.s for the Soviet Union to declare its presence in the Baltics an occupation? (Sadly, original research based on sources directly involved--and which I have NOT included.) And why is there no other discussion? Not because the article is a POV Great Patriotic War denier, it's because there's simply no further insight to be had, not even in my "Concise Encyclopedia of the Latvian S.S.R." So, what is the article specifically non-compliant about?
I repeat my request: anyone who has any reputable evidence to the contrary that the Soviet Union did not "occupy" Latvia, please present it. That does not change, however, that the Soviet presence in Latvia was illegal, that Latvia neither legally nor voluntarily "joined" the Soviet Union, that "annexation" does not terminate "occupation," or that the legal and sovereign government of Latvia continued to function de jure in exile until the reestablishment of said sovereign authority on Latvian territory, all of which make it the occupation of Latvia.
I fail to see how one can insist that presenting verified facts is "inflammatory." I would submit that vehement denial and constant POV tagging of facts is the true "inflammatory" action. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 07:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is a perfect example of tenditious editing edit wars waged by 2 or 3 Baltic nationalists to push their agenda on Wikipedia. Anyone who follows political news from this region closely (or even remotely) knows that there is currently a heavy return to nationalism in these three countries, bordering sometimes on Nazism and Holocaust denial, such as monuments erected to local Waffen SS troopers, desecration of WWII war monuments, and so on. Unfortunately, some people are trying to push the corresponding agenda on Wikipedia.
User:Constanz has been edit warring on this article for quite a moment now. He was blocked once for 3RR on this article, and have been accusing everyone who did not agree with him as "vandal" (see history) and dismissing their arguments as "Soviet propaganda". Obviously, asking him to read the corresponding policies would have been of little effect. He is trying to present his own opinion (since he's about the only one to contribute on the talk page) as "consensus" and apparently does not understand that while some sort of consensus is not reached, the tag has to stay as a warning for a casual reader. And by the way, content disputes are in no way vandalism.
User:Martintg is currently an obvious single purpose account ( contribs) whose only purpose it to help Constanz wage his revert wars.
As for User:Vecrumba, he did not take a part in that agenda pushing. Still, I'm surprised by his statement. If he thinks that wording like "is the most persistent fabrication of Soviet propaganda" are NPOV, he should seriously reread the corresponding WP policies. What is also interesting is the fact that he could not find pre-1991 sources calling it an occupation (check the first three refs: all of them are post-1991 material). One also has to notice that slapping together two different periods like 1940-1941 and 1941-1944, thus lowering the significance of Nazi crimes, is a form of Holocaust denial that should not be tolerated on WP.
Finally, I would like to point out that any attempt by me, Irpen, or other users like User:Grant65, were boycotted by Constanz and Martintg. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources that show to that Latvia was occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940. There are also sources that show that Latvia and Latvians voluntarily joined the Soviet Union in 1940. Until 1991 most of the worlds governments saw the incorporation of the Baltic States into the Soviet Union as legal. After 1991 this has become one of the most contested issues in international politics and modern history. Whichever of these views is more correct, the issue requires a balanced coverage in a dedicated article with a neutral point of view.
Grouping the actions of the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic together with Nazi war crimes, under a common title of "occupation", precludes any neutral writing on the subject.
The dispute here is not about whether Soviet rule in Latvia was occupation or not, but the arbitrary grouping and merging of different rules under one title of "occupation". This is a propaganda/POV pushing trick. What the creators of the article have done is like merging George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler under The Great Satan.
I do not think there is a place for an article in Wikipedia under the present title. In its present form it only serves as a tool for ethnic POV-pushing and associated hate speech. At best it is a POV fork of material covered in other articles. The article should be deleted. Most of the material could be moved or merged to The Museum of the Occupation of Latvia [12]. The remaining material should be moved to (if not already covered in) Occupation of Latvia by Nazi Germany, Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic, Occupation of Baltic Republics (another POV title), Battle of Narva - Battle of the Tannenbergstellung (1944), Courland Pocket, etc... (The first two definitely need expansion.)
And now to my personal views: The heart of the matter here is the Nuremberg style denaturalization laws and the right of the newly independent Baltic States to deprive citizenship from their ex-soviet citizens. The view expressed in this article is the one promoted by the Museum of the Occupation of Latvia, a propaganda tool of the Latvian government. True or not, the views expressed in the article are vital for the legitimicy of Latvian policy. Given the resources of the state, there is no scarcity of printed sources supporting this views. Opponent however see the whole Latvian state as an illegal ethnocracy. I tend to agree.
I also object to the article on moral grounds. The article tries to equate the actions of the Soviet Union (and Soviet citizens in the Baltic Republics) with those of Nazi Germany. I see this as a form of Holocaust revisionism. It denies the unique nature if Nazi war crimes by equating them to real or imagined crimes of others. -- Petri Krohn 02:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
P.S. This RfA and the edit war that promted it does not seem to be about the content of the article. It is about about the POV-tags; the right of opponents of the content or name to tag the article. So far I have not contributed to the article. I have only reverted the deletion of the {{ POV-title}} tag and added a {{ Totally-disputed-section}} (which was immediately removed). This is the reason I am included in this dispute. On this tag-issue I believe repeated removal of POV-tags is vandalism. -- Petri Krohn 03:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
All numbering based on /Proposed decision (vote counts and comments are there as well)
1) All editors are expected to assume good faith in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
2) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their dealings with other users. Insulting and intimidating other users harms the community by creating a hostile environment. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
3) Neutral point of view as defined on Wikipedia contemplates inclusion of all significant perspectives that have been published by a reliable source. While majority perspectives may be favored by more detailed coverage, minority perspectives should also receive sufficient coverage. No perspective is to be presented as the "truth"; all perspectives are to be attributed to their advocates.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
4) Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. Editors adding new material should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
5) Original research is prohibited. This includes a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position; an argument is permissible only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the specific topic of the article.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
6) Where user conduct issues seem to revolve around a single articles, and where there are a large number of editors involved, and those editors are not disruptive otherwise, it may make more sense to put the article itself on probation rather than individual editors. Administrators are empowered to block or ban editors from editing the article for misconduct like edit warring, incivility, original research, or other disruption relating to the article on probation.
Passed 7 to 1 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1) The dispute revolves around the title, scope, and content of the Occupation of Latvia 1940-1945 article; these have been the subject of extensive and heated debate, which has failed to produce an outcome acceptable to all of the editors involved. Among other issues, the debate has focused around two related questions: whether the Soviet presence in Latvia was an occupation, and whether—regardless of the answer to the first question—the article's current title and scope are appropriately chosen.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
2) A number of parties—including Advocatus diaboli, Constanz, Ghirlandajo, Grafikm_fr, Petri Krohn, Lysy, Irpen, and Martintg—have engaged in a revert war over the presence of the {{ POV-title}} and {{ noncompliant}} tags on the article.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
3) A number of the parties to the dispute, including Grafikm_fr ( [14], [15]), Constanz ( [16], [17], [18], [19], [20]), Advocatus diaboli ( [21], [22]), Martintg ( [23]), Lysy ( [24]), and Petri Krohn ( [25], [26]) have aggravated it by some form of poor behavior, such as engaging in personal attacks, assuming bad faith of the other editors involved, making attacks and accusations along national lines, or soapboxing.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
1) The parties named above as having acted poorly in this dispute are admonished to avoid such behavior in the future.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Rescinded by motion |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Passed 7 to 1 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
3) The parties are strongly encouraged to enter into a mediation arrangement regarding any article content issues that may still be outstanding.
Passed 8 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Remedy 2.1 of the Occupation of Latvia case ("Article probation") is rescinded.
1) If the article is not substantially improved by continued editing the Arbitration Committee may impose editing restrictions on users whose editing is counterproductive or disruptive.
Passed 7 to 0 at 23:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Log any block, ban or extension under any remedy in this decision here. Minimum information includes name of administrator, date and time, what was done and the basis for doing it.