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October 2 Information
Denise Moore was probably born of British parents in Algiers when it was part of French Algeria. Does that make her British, French or Algerian? Clarityfiend ( talk) 03:13, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- In terms of qualication for a passport, French certainly, British probably, but not Algerian as she died well before independence, and was apparently not ethnically any sort of Algerian. Compare Rudyard Kipling and others. Johnbod ( talk) 03:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- To answer the question that hasn't been asked, someone with a complicated ethnic–national–citizenship tension like that shouldn't have "was a [demonym] [occupation]" anywhere in their article (as I see is already the case for
Denise Moore). That sort of language leads inevitably to acrimonious indentation levels.
Folly Mox (
talk) 04:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm actually asking because of the categories: Category:Algerian aviators and others just don't sit well with me. I think I'll just take those out. Clarityfiend ( talk) 06:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- There's probably nothing "complicated" at all, but we don't seem to know what passport(s) she held, or anything certain about her birth.
Johnbod (
talk) 04:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe I should have said "multimodal"? All I mean is if there's a sentence in the lead identifying the subject as a demonym, it's a magnet for nationality fans to alter or hyphenate. See for example Djaafar Khemdoudi and the related ANI. Folly Mox ( talk) 05:58, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
-
User:Johnbod, wouldn't her passport show her
citizenship status, not necessarily her
nationality? I realise the line between these concepts is not clear cut. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 23:43, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Modern passports have a field for nationality, they do not have a field marked "Citizenship".
DuncanHill (
talk) 00:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- I thought "surely American passports don't have a field for nationality", so I checked mine, and you're right, it does! It says "Nationality / Nationalité / Nacionalidad UNITED STATES OF AMERICA".
- I have to say that seems pretty weird. If I have a US passport, isn't it sort of obvious I have US nationality? Even American Samoans have US nationality (their US citizenship is a contested point, I think). Is there anything else that would ever go in that field? Or is it just to make it easier on foreign customs agents, who might have to deal with passports from countries that do have multiple possibilities for nationality, if there are any? --
Trovatore (
talk) 01:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think the fields are standard by international treaty, & some countries have variant possibilities. Mine says "British citizen", but there's also (still I think) "
British Overseas Citizen", "
British protected person" (some 1200 left apparently) and maybe others.
Johnbod (
talk) 02:00, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- Some British nationals are not British citizens [1]. 2A02:C7B:10C:3200:A89E:70FA:13B5:5106 ( talk) 11:41, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think the fields are standard by international treaty, & some countries have variant possibilities. Mine says "British citizen", but there's also (still I think) "
British Overseas Citizen", "
British protected person" (some 1200 left apparently) and maybe others.
Johnbod (
talk) 02:00, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- Modern passports have a field for nationality, they do not have a field marked "Citizenship".
DuncanHill (
talk) 00:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- No one has mentioned
Pied-Noir as a possible affiliation yet...
AnonMoos (
talk) 08:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Algeria had been a Department of France since 1848, so either French or British or both, depending on the whim of her parents. Alansplodge ( talk) 12:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- See French_nationality_law#19th_century, and read on. As I read it she would not have qualified for French citizenship, even after the liberalisation of 1889, as neither of her parents were born in France. DuncanHill ( talk) 14:48, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
The "Before Amelia" reference states "...born in Algeria of English parents, according to French and German sources (others claim her as American)... " -- Soman ( talk) 15:33, 2 October 2023 (UTC)