Wikipedia Mediation Cabal | |
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Article | Falklands War |
Status | Closed |
Request date | 22:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC) |
Requesting party | Wee Curry Monster talk |
Parties involved | User:Ranger Steve, User:Sturmvogel 66, User:ALR, User:Wee Curry Monster |
Mediator(s) | ItsZippy, Jeffw |
The dispute is over the means to best represent the way the Falklands War was led by its political masters in the UK in the infobox.
The list of the users involved.
The UK has a system of cabinet government, where decisions are taken collectively rather than by individuals. On the one side, it is suggested that there needs to be reference to the War Cabinet taking collective decisions. The counter argument is that Margaret Thatcher is the only person of note to be mentioned. The counter counter argument is this is misleading as it implies Thatcher made decisions in a presidential rather than collective manner.
The two edits are:
A)
Prime Minister
Margaret Thatcher
B)
War Cabinet
[1] chaired by
Prime Minister
Margaret Thatcher
The dispute has descended into rather foolish and petty bickering, which is making reasonable discussion impossible. Rather than discussing content, it has devolved into blame wars.
Talk:Falklands War#Margaret Thatcher
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Falklands and request for input on the use of the infobox (I actually think this was counter productive).
Just about everything you can see on wikipedia to make a dispute unnecessarily protracted:
I would hope a cooler and uninvolved head can structure the discussion better.
Do you realise that mediation requires an open mind, collaborating together in an environment of camaraderie and mutual respect, with the understanding that to reach a solution, compromise is required?
Hi there, I am please to offer myself as mediator of this case. If you accept me, I hope we can bring this case to a resolution. I shall lay out certain grounds rules as to how negotiations should be conducted and then try to bring this dispute to a resolution. Please remember that mediation invariably involves compromise but should allow closure on the issue. If you would accept my mediation of this case, please indicate your acceptance below. I will give 72 hours for all involved parties to comment - if no-one rejects my offer of mediation, I shall assume acceptance and begin mediation. If any party rejects this offer, I shall withdraw my offer of mediation and allow another to take my place. Thank you. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 20:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
As two parties have signified acceptance and none have opposed my offer of mediation, I shall continue with the case. I would first like to establish some ground rules by which this mediation process will run. Once we've done that, we can establish the issues which need resolving and a get going. Please could all parties signify their acceptance of the ground rules below. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 17:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, we've had no response from Ranger Steve, and his talk pages says that he is not very active at the moment. To enable progression, we'll carry on this mediation without him; if you have a problem with this, please let me know, otherwise I'll assume it it ok. I'd like to get moving with the mediation now, and to establish the key issues. Therefore, I would request that each party please provide an opening statement, outlining what they think the issues which need to be discussed are. Please keep them brief and focussed on what the issues are. Please post them in the section below. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 15:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the opening statements. This seems to me like quite a simple issue, but has caused controversy. There is agreement on the actual facts of the matter - the nature of the British government during the Falklands War; the main problem seems to be how such information should be presented in the infobox. Although the issue itself is simple, there is not that much in the way of a 'middle ground'. Nevertheless, I think we should under way with discussion. Before we start, I would like to make a few brief notes. I will also post a mediation timetable below, which will guide this process. a) The conduct of users has become an issue in this dispute. If we are to have a discussion, I will request that all previous conduct issues from the past are dropped and forgotten. Moreover, I will insist that we assume good faith, assuming that we all want to improve the article and no one is intending to deceive. b) Certain areas of policy have been mentioned; we are here to discuss the matter at hand. Any off topic comments about wider Wikipedia policy should be avoided. c) Relevant policy will be important in this dispute, especially WP:IBX. I suggest that this is read and understood by all parties. The discussion should centre around the best interpretation of the policy. d) Remember, we're not out to win a debate. Rather, we want to find the very best possible solution - this may be your idea, someone else's idea or something in between. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 20:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Heya. I'm going to join in as another mediator. -- J (t) 04:12, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
We have had little activity here for a while, and most parties seem not to be taking part. If we do not get any substantial contributions from the other parties by the weekend, I will close this case. If that happens, I would recommend that discussions resume at the relevant talk pages. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 19:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I am closing this case for the reasons outlined above. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 21:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Please sign just your username below, as well as Agree or Disagree, with four tildes (~~~~) to indicate your agreement or disagreement with the ground rules and your participation in the case. These shouldn't be taken lightly. If you agree to these it is expected you will abide by them. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 17:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Participants, please indicate your acceptance of the ground rules in this section. Thank you.
[1% ]Garner party agreement to ground rules. Done
[5%] Obtain opening statements from all involved parties. Done
[50%] Initiate discussion on the major issue of the presentation of information in the infobox. Discuss issues, changes that may need to be made, and compromises that need to be formulated, in order for the issue to come to an amicable solution. Discuss the potential use of outside opinions, such as RFC's, to help determine community consensus. Mediators to implement solution when one is achieved.
[60%] Re-assess the status of the mediation. Allow the raising of further issues which may have arisen in relation to the issue at hand.
[75%] Discuss any further issues raised by the involved parties. Discuss issues, changes that may need to be made, and compromises that need to be formulated, in order for the issue to come to an amicable solution. Discuss the potential use of outside opinions, such as RFC's, to help determine community consensus. Mediators to implement solution when one is achieved.
[85%] Re-visit the initial issue, discussing alternative solutions, if required.
[90%] Discuss the articles with parties, offering advice as to how to better manage disputes in future
[95%] Discuss long term options to help keep the article stable, for example agreement to abide by certain rules when editing these articles.
[100%] Seek resolution of dispute through party agreement, then close mediation.
Personally I would prefer to omit political leadership from the infobox. The Falklands War was lead by the military with broad campaign guidelines and RoE defined by the politicians who did not exercuise leadership of the operation beyond this. Others disagree on this point and suggest Margaret Thatcher should be included as Prime Minister.
If political leaders are to be included, the information even when summarised should be accurate and not misleading. Listing only Margaret Thatcher as a leader does mislead. It implies a presidential style of Government, with Margaret Thatcher taking decisions alone. This didn't happen. Britain has a cabinet style of Government, with decisions taken collectively. In the case of the Falklands War, early on a War Cabinet was formed to provide political oversight of the campaign. Hence, I suggest as a minium we should wikilink the War Cabinet for the Falklands, or if others wish to see Margaret Thatcher there it be noted that she chaired the War Cabinet. The difference between the two edits is minimal and it provides far more information. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I think there are a number of issues related to this discussion that are pertinent; the content dispute itself, individual behaviour and two aspects of policy. I wouldn't intend to discuss behaviour in this case but it may be germane.
With respect to the content dispute, for a long time the article in question has been stable without including political leadership. An effort was made to include Margaret Thatcher that led to a discussion following which the majority decision was that she should be included, on the basis that it's consistent with style elsewhere. Personally I would disagree that she should be included, but the majority take an alternative view.
We then move on to the proposition that it is inappropriate to include the individual, given the collective nature of political shenanigans in the UK. I wouldn't say that the resultant discussion was particularly dignified but the majority decision was that the individual, Prime Minister, is the most appropriate representation. Again that's consistent with elsewhere in Wikipedia. Personally I'm ambivalent on that point as I'd prefer that political vermin weren't included at all.
We then move to a slightly more abstract issue of policy that is probably not going to be addressed, either here or elsewhere but I think it worth articulating as it is germane. In both these issues we're discussing a binary position, so consensus is not achievable. We have a majority decision and the fallacy of consensus doesn't lend itself to achieving closure within the collaboration. It would take a sea change in leadership in Wikipedia and a reduction in zealotry and near religious fervour to modify a core, albeit fundamentally flawed, policy.
The other policy issue that applies relates to the use of sources and our treatment of expertise is an obstacle to development of an adequate quality of product. Our policies don't allow for the nuance that expertise brings, given that all sources are perceived as equal and only sources, not the understanding of them, being important. There are significant weaknesses in Wikipedias ability to deal with nuance and subtlety that have become quite strongly exhibited in this case.
ALR ( talk) 17:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
My attention was brought to this affair by a post on the MilHist talk page and I moved to bring the infobox inline with the other military conflict infoboxes where either only the head of gov't is mentioned, along with the military leadership, or only the military leadership is mentioned. WCM vociferiously and insultingly disagreed, blowing a mistake of mine in an edit summary where I deleted the names of the Junta and War Cabinet from the infobox and that my reference to the infobox used on the Vietnam War as an example demonstrated an ignorance of the differences between the US and UK types of gov't. Let me say that I don't dispute any of WCM's arguments about who actually ran the war at the political level for both sides, but I believe that that info is best presented in the main body, not the infobox. I will point out that I have made no changes at all to the main body because WCM is correct in his facts. However, WP:IBX states that the purpose of an infobox is "to summarize key facts in the article in which it appears. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." and I feel that WCM's version violated that principle of brevity. In fact, I'd argue that the current version with its four bullet points on the result of the war is still too long and should be limited to "decisive British victory" and "return of the status quo ante bellum" as the collapse of the Galtieri gov't and consolidation of power by the Conservatives in the UK are second-order effects and should be covered in the main body.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 15:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Hello there, unfortunately some developments off wiki mean that I haven’t been around for the last few weeks, and won’t be for the next couple of weeks to come. However, having read this MedCab I will take 20 minutes to give my thoughts.
If this debate was simply about the matter described above by WCM, then not only would this MedCab be excessive, it would also instantly fail the prerequisites for listing. The suggestion of including the War Cabinet in the form shown above was barely 24 hours old when this MedCab was filed, and I see no other attempts at mediation made by the person who made the listing.
In actual fact, this listing has been fairly misrepresented above. It isn’t as simple as the two edits shown, nor as simple as the two ‘sides’ alluded to. The initial debate was whether or not to include Thatcher in the article’s infobox (note there is no disagreement that she should be in the article). WCM disagreed that she should be, citing rules that prohibited her inclusion. I became involved after a request for input was made at the Milhist talk page. I felt that per the standard use of an infobox, she should be included. After WCMs argument that rules prohibited the inclusion was proved false and a considerable majority of editors agreed that she should be included, WCM insisted it was only acceptable if every member of the War Cabinet of the government was included (for the sake of completeness I should also point out that WCM denies ‘insisting’ on their inclusion, despite the long arguments made, refusal to accept the consensus, repeated edits made to include the cabinet, and of course, this mediation procedure. This is insistent behaviour. He denies that he has ‘demanded’ their inclusion – which is true, nowhere has he said “I demand…”, but of course ‘insist’ is a verb that can be demonstrated through actions). This suggestion was also rejected by the majority of editors, as being too much information. Note once again that there is no disagreement that the cabinet should be in the article.
Finally, at the eleventh hour, WCM changed his stance to the option B above. It’s still against the vast majority of other editor’s opinions and consensus established by other articles. Barely a day or so after taking this stance, WCM filed this MedCab. The filing above makes it appear that only 4 editors are involved, despite the dozen or so usernames to be found in the discussion. It also makes it appear that the discussion has only been about the two options presented above which, as I’ve just explained, it isn’t.
No steps have been taken by WCM to resolve the dispute until this MedCab (the discussion on the milhist take page was instigated by myself), and so the case still seems to fail the Mediation Cabal Case prerequisites. The filing is incomplete and not all editors who have an interest have been informed.
Unfortunately, WCM also decided to make this debate personal by making regular bad faith accusations, misrepresentation of other peoples comments and, most recently, accusing myself and other editors of bullying him and making indirect suggestions of canvassing. These are in no way either a) my style, or b) evident in the discussions – if they were I’m sure WCM would have gone to ANI or wp:civil. As it is, had I been active at the time I might have gone there myself. I don’t take kindly to such ridiculous false and bad faith allegations.
With regards to the content dispute, WCM doesn’t seem to want to understand that my stance has always included compromise. I have repeatedly said, right from my first comment, that this might be a subject that warrants further discussion on a broader level. Not only would that get a wider range of opinions, but it would make sure that any decision applied here was relevant and consistent across the board of conflict infoboxes. WCM has refused to do so, as he believes the Falklands War is a unique example. This misses three points. One, it isn’t unique – there are dozens of other instances where it might be deemed relevant to include a political entity based on its contribution to a war. Should we include the Japanese war cabinet in WWII? Hirohito certainly made very few (if any) strategic decisions and there’s a whole can of worms about whether he should be listed at all. Given that a cabinet made most decisions and merely sought divine agreement from Hirohito, shouldn’t they be included? What about all the other wars Japan was involved in since the Meiji revolution? What about the UNSC in just about any conflict it’s been involved in? Secondly, there is already a very obvious consensus in such articles to include individuals and not organisations in the commander’s field. Thirdly, and most importantly, although the infobox is meant to be a summary of the article content, it is not a summary of the chain of command. The commander’s field is there to show personalities, not a legal list of who commanded what.
I am more than happy to have a wider discussion about this, but I don’t think an RFC limited to this one article is the way forward. For the reasons I’ve outlined above, I think that it would be better to discuss this issue with relevance to all infoboxes where it might be appropriate to include an organisation/political body in this way. Milhist or the infobox talk page would seem most appropriate place, as I’ve already said (quite a bit) in this debate. My previous comment at Milhist (the one that “poisoned the well”, which is here) was not designed to instigate such a debate. By then it was just a request for input in a case of tendentious editing after a straightforward majority consensus had already been reached twice.
I have nothing further to add – even if I were around at the moment I would refrain from having any more input here as I believe this medcab is unjust and unwarranted. The Falklands War article has a dreadful infobox this issue aside, the article is in an appalling state, there appears to be a serious problem with WP:own and I've evidently wasted enough time on it. The only thing I’d request is if you haven’t already, please read the debate on the talk page ItsZippy (not wishing to imply you hadn’t but you may have deliberately avoided doing so in order to remain as impartial as possible). I believe the RFC ALR refers to is the consensuses reached after the issue was twice raised at the Milhist talk page. Ranger Steve Talk 15:07, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank you everyone for your co-operation and patience so far in the mediation. We've agreed to the ground rules, heard opening statements and established a mediation agenda; we can now start the discussion proper. Per our agenda, the first and major issue is what information should be included in the article's infoxbox in regard to the government and leadership. We seem to have agreement on the actual facts, so discussion should be about the best representation of these facts. I would advise that the WP:IBX policy is considered, as well as any other relevant policies. Remember to keep discussion civil, to assume good faith, and remain focused on the content of the article. I will intervene in the discussion as and when I see fit. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 20:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Strurmvogel acknowledges my facts are correct, he also states that the infobox needs brevity. Well there is not much difference between A and B above, except that B contains a lot more information. Does he want to explain why B is not sufficiently succinct as to be acceptable to him.
Secondly does A not suggest that Thatcher made decisions alone? I would ask he address this please. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Based on the discussion so far, and ALR's comments above, might I suggest the use of an RfC? That would establish the consensus of the community regarding how the information should be presented. Does that sound reasonable? ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 18:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't want to go over old arguments again. This issue has gone through numerous discussions, with the same arguments being rehashed over and over. I don't want to just open another forum for discussion, as that will undoubtedly lead to the same stalemate that brought us here in the first place. Therefore, I would like to simply assess whether an RfC on the issue would be a good idea. I think that, if we are to have one, it needs to cover all military conflict infoboxes, and not just be about the Falklands War. What do people think about having an RfC on the way leadership is presented on military conflict infoboxes? ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 17:03, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
I will also insist that anyone wishing to contribute to this Mediation Cabal who has not yet done so first signs an acceptance of the ground rules set out above. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 17:13, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
We've not heard not much here in the past few days. My current interpretation of the current consensus over at the Falklands War talk page is that Margaret Thatcher should be included in the British leaders section. However, it would be good if we could come to a final agreement here about what should be done, both on the article itself and in general. I have proposed an RfC on how military history infoboxes display leadership, but would like to hear the opinion of the parties involved. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 15:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
Here's a first draft:
"How should the British leadership of the Falklands War be expressed in the infobox? Should it only name Margarent Thatcher, refer to the leadership as a 'War Cabinet', or list the political and military leaders involved in the conflict?"
How does that look? Feel free to post alternatives. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 18:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
“ | Should the political leadership of the Falklands War be included in the infobox? If so, how best should the collective responsibility of Cabinet Government be represented. Is it sufficiently descriptive to mention solely the Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher or should there be mention of the War Cabinet which made decisions collectively | ” |
Ok, this has been static for a little while, so I would like to move forwards now. So far, it seems that those who have commented do not want a wider discussion on the issue, although not many have commented, so this could change. I would now like to determine whether we think a full discussion on this specific issues is necessary, and how it should be conducted. I want to hear from as many sides as possible before launching into a full discussion again. If the consensus seems to be that a full discussion is unnecessary, then we won't try to pursue it. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 21:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I'm slightly irritated by Sturmvogel66 personalising matters, I refrained from doing so deliberately as it is counter productive - and he is certainly not without sin in escalating a minor disagreement into a dispute - including edit warring instead of following WP:BRD. Can I ask that this stop and the relevant remarks stricken. Blaming me for his error? Wee Curry Monster talk 22:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
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As I said above, this discussion must remain focused on the content, not the conduct of other users. I am going to hide the above comments and request that whatever has gone on before is forgotten. We are here to come to a resolution about the content of the article, that is all. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 18:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Since there is no qualification procedure to become a MedCab mediator and since any Wikipedia editor can volunteer in any mediation case to be a mediator, each participant in a dispute should carefully examine the background and experience of any editor who volunteers to mediate a case and should feel free to reject any mediator who they believe is not suitable. Rejection by one or more participants of a mediator or rejection of participation in the mediation for any other reason does not mean that the mediation cannot move forward with that mediator or with the remaining participants, but it may substantially lessen the possibility that consensus to settle the dispute will be achieved. (Mediation cannot, by policy, provide a binding result but can only help the parties reach consensus.) |