Elephant population ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( restore)

This was speedy deleted out of process. The admin who performed the deletion has defended it at User talk:Pppery#Elephant population with their opinion on the merits of the redirect, and while I disagree with their opinion admins don't have the right to push the delete button because of their opinions but instead by must follow standard deletion procedures. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:07, 17 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Overturn clear mis-application of G6. Not a “technical deletion” in any way, shape, or form. It can be taken to RFD if anyone desires. Frank Anchor 23:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Background - This page was created with the text;

  It was recently confirmed by reliable source(s) that the elephant population has increased dramatically. This source says that the elephant population in Africa has tripled in the last six months and that if the population continues at this rate of increase, in two to five years the earth will be overrun by these giganic mamels. in that case, the source believes that elephant hunting will be legal soon. "it is only a matter of time," says source," Until congress will pass the law for elephant hunting and even promote this dangerous sport. Looks like my stash of ivory wont be illegal for long!" source exclaims with the sparkle of triumph in his eyes.
  
  The Kato institute reports elephant populations have indeed increased despite liberal allegations. In a study by renowned palientologist Howard Berkman it was revealed that in the last 6 months there has been a 600% increase in the rural West African Great White Tusk elephant. For more see http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

As this was clearly nonsense, it was tagged for speedy deletion. The proper procedure at the time would have been to just delete the page. However, there was instead a common (though very much 'out of process') practice of making indefinitely protected redirects, since these had the added 'benefit' of preventing recreation. As such, the page was redirected to Elephant and indefinitely protected "for now". That was clearly always meant to be a temporary solution, but got lost in the shuffle. Eighteen years later I removed the protection and deleted the page. To me, this seems like a standard G6 maintenance issue... finally implementing the proper / intended solution. Further, in the 18 years of its existence, no article on the site ever incorporated this redirect. It simply doesn't make sense to type 'Elephant population' to get to 'Elephant'. Thus, I feel the page should remain deleted... based on both 'benefit' to the encyclopedia AND process. -- CBD 00:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

Like your earlier claim that "we don't have redirects from <title> <word> to <title>", your implication that "no incoming links from articles" is a reason to delete is simply untrue. Close to two thirds of mainspace redirects have no incoming links, and this argument is explicitly called out at WP:RFD#KEEP #2. — Cryptic 00:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Overturn, and optionally List - Even if this had been done six months after the redirection, it would not have been a non-controversial maintenance deletion. The existence of a concept of non-controversial maintenance implies that there is also controversial maintenance, and this is controversial maintenance, and can be debated at RFD if there is a nomination. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Speedy undelete and list at XfD, which should be immediately done on any reasonable request by and user in good standing. If there is anything to debate, the forum for the debate is XfD. If the allegation is that an admin is repeatedly misusing speedy deletion, that’s another matter. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 13:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Overturn The cited text is fictitious and ludicrous, but because it can clearly be understood by a reasonable person to be exactly that... it's not nonsense. But nor does G6 apply. Great candidate for a non-speedy process. Jclemens ( talk) 13:37, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Close with no action. What exactly is the remedy sought by the appellant here? I agree that G6 was incorrectly applied. But what do we gain by overturning it? A wiki search for "Elephant population" gives Elephant as the sixth result. This isn't a plausible typo, although after 18 years, it's clearly not a recently created one to fall under R3. Yes, it shouldn't have been summarily deleted out of process, and no, we don't need that redirect back just to be re-deleted at RfD. At most, I'd go for a half-hearted TROUTing of the deleting admin, along with a quiet Thank you for trying to save us the trouble of a pointless XfD, and get back to more important matters. Owen× ☎ 16:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  The remedy sought is it to overturn the deletion, undelete the page, and allow anyone who wishes it nominate it at RfD to do so. I would have thought that was obvious. And I am not convinced this would have been deleted at RfD in the first place. This ends-justify-the-means reasoning is contrary to deletion policy, and you can't IAR around it either per WP:IARUNCOMMON since this logic appears to apply just as well to anything any admin personally thinks would likely be deleted at a deletion discussion, which is a common scenario. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  Undelete and list at XfD puts the situation back on the track it should have been on, and provides a clear example to observers, and gives re-education to the admin misapplying G6. SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  In Victor Hugo's last novel, Ninety-Three, a sailor risks his life to secure a loose cannon on deck, the cannon that he himself failed to secure earlier. The captain awards him a medal for his bravery, and then proceeds to execute him for dereliction of duty. My question is, must we revive this redirect just to kill it again? The G6 was wrong, and IAR doesn't apply here, but DRV is a content forum, not a disciplinary one. It seems pointless to retrace our steps just to end up where we started, and we're not here to educate anyone. We don't know what a future RfD would decide, but we don't need to leave this for RfD. Policy gives DRV the authority to adjudicate the matter, not just to relist it. Just because a useless redirect has been in place for 18 years is no reason to keep it, and certainly no reason to resurrect it. Owen× ☎ 02:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  DRV is not XfD. The merits of the redirect are out of scope for DRV. The automatic links, tools, logging, etc, are set up to work from XfD. We are only still here because an admin is obstinately sticking by their bad G6. The purpose of this DRV is to establish consensus that the G6 was wrong and the redirect if it must be deleted must go through xfd. SmokeyJoe ( talk) 03:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  The authority to delete is spelled out by our deletion policy, not by Twinkle or some template. DRV may overturn an XfD or a speedy to any other outcome. Specifically, it may overturn an incorrect speedy deletion to a consensus Delete. RfD doesn't provide any automatic links; we have all the information we need to decide this here and now, without listing it, and we don't need XFD Participation tool to voice our opinion, nor XFDcloser to carry out the result. I agree with you that CBDunkerson could have--and by this point should have--saved us from continuing this debate by undoing his G6. But he didn't, and now we have the choice between undoing it here and keeping the redir, undoing and sending to RfD, or leaving the page deleted while acknowledging G6 was a mistake. If you don't wish to adjudicate on the redir itself, it's certainly your prerogative to !vote "Overturn and list", but it's also the prerogative of those who don't see the need for the extra wonkery to !vote "Overturn to delete", which is basically no action beyond an implied finger wag at the out-of-process speedy. Owen× ☎ 06:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  I don’t wish to adjudicate on the redir itself, not here and now.

  I am curious to see the history behind the redirect. I recall the Stephen Colbert call to edit elephant from around the time, and it might be funny or interesting to read. I considered requesting a temp undeletion, but haven’t because that information has no bearing on my opinion that the G6 was improper and must be reversed. If this goes to RfD, undeleted, I will examine the history before expressing an opinion on whether it is better kept available or hidden from nonadmins.

  I am not sure that is can be justifiably asserted that there is a consensus to delete the history. SmokeyJoe ( talk) 09:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  I agree; I, too, see no consensus to delete, sadly. It seems some here are more concerned with Righting Great Wrongs, in this case, teaching that admin a lesson, than they are in giving that page the disposition I believe it deserves. I doubt any participant here would have created Elephant population as a redirect had it not existed, which means that the only reason they're now opting to restore it is that it already existed, and was deleted out of process. I don't believe that's a valid reason to keep--or restore--a page, but it seems I'm in the minority here. Owen× ☎ 13:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  Thanks. Let’s not say “Righting Great Wrongs”. I see this as filing rough edges in the cogs of deletion policy, in a place and a way that doesn’t stop anything else. G6 misuse diminishes the respect of WP:CSD, and disenfranchises the ordinary community in favour of an admin class in some aspects of the management of the community. SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  I like this analogy and agree with the post. I don't know what the heck benefit there is of this pointless bureaucratic exercise... jp× g 🗯️ 12:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Overturn. The "intended solution" was exactly what was done: removing inappropriate content and turning the page into a redirect, and that was done because it's at least a somewhat plausible redirect; someone thinking that this redirect makes some sense is the precondition to this solution. If it hadn't made at least some sense to someone, the page wouldn't have been redirected but deleted. This is a common reason redirects are created and protection isn't important; current protection practices differing from those xx years ago have nothing to do with the deletion/retention of the redirect. Today this same redirect could be created under the same circumstances, but the page would not be protected.— Alalch E. 23:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• As a non-admin, I can't tell exactly what has happened here. SportingFlyer T· C 04:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Elephant was persistently vandalized in August 2006, apparently at the behest of Stephen Colbert. When that article was protected, it inevitably spilled over into new titles. Since there's some value in this one, it was redirected to Elephant and then protected, and lived happily on for almost eighteen years when CBDunkerson "uncontroversially" deleted it. — Cryptic 05:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

    Overturn In that case, it should be overturned, even though if I agree with the spirit of the deletion. SportingFlyer T· C 22:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Overturn as an out-of-process deletion. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 18:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Overturn as an improper deletion. LEPRICAVARK ( talk) 00:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Overturn. A G6 speedy deletion has the express requirement of being non-controversial. The fact that one or more editors have seen fit to raise a challenge here indicates it is not non-controversial and therefore the deletion cannot stand. It may be sent to WP:RFD if anyone is willing to send it there, and I would be minded to support deleting it there. Stifle ( talk) 08:03, 22 May 2024 (UTC) reply

Akiko Kitamura ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( XfD| restore)

I don't believe this closure was appropriate. I provided a legitimate argument for deletion, and this was a PROD that had been removed. None of the votes for "keep" commented on the merits of the article and instead cast aspersions on my work. I recommend this AFD be reopened. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Endorse. The AfD ran for a full week, during which not a single participant supported your call for deletion. Whether or not you did a proper WP:BEFORE search is no longer relevant. There was no consensus to delete, and no compelling reason to relist it. I can't fault other editors for being suspicious of your nominations, seeing your poor track record. The ten examples that JTtheOG provided tell a damning story. Go for quality nominations, not for quantity. Owen× ☎ 21:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Weak overturn to no consensus Endorse with no prejudice against immediate re-nomination (citing very low attendance). While there is clearly not anything close to consensus to delete, the keep !votes are attacking the nominator and do nothing to claim the subject is notable. I recommend this option rather than resisting because a potential future AFD can focus on the article rather than the nominator. If Bgsu98 wishes to renominate, I recommend this user take the advice at WP:RENOM and put together a stronger case as to why this particular article should be deleted. Frank Anchor 22:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Comment - In the past six years, there have been three ArbCom cases involving deletion discussions, and in those three cases I have proposed that ArbCom institute discretionary sanctions, now known as contentious topics, for conduct in deletion discussions. ArbCom has evidently considered and not accepted that idea. This is another illustration of behavior in deletion discussions that appears to be disruptive. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  To which behavior are you referring? Bgsu98 (Talk) 11:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Weak Endorse - There was no error by the closer. The nomination was properly listed, and at least two editors saw it, and two editors commented, opposing deletion. Relist would have been a valid action. No Consensus would not have been a valid close. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Comment - There should be a Skating list at Deletion Sorting, especially since the appellant is nominating large numbers of figure skaters for deletion. Robert McClenon ( talk) 02:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

  Y Done. Owen× ☎ 12:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Comment: there are currently 52 open AfDs in the newly created WP:DELSORT/Skating, of which 51 were nominated by Bgsu98, most using a copy-pasted nomination text. The exception was WP:Articles_for_deletion/Nordic_cross_skating, which isn't about a skater, and arguably may not be about skating at all.

Did the appellant believe their chances are better with 51 separate nominations than with one, 51-entry discussion? Either way, DRV, as a second instance forum, may aggregate all 51 into a single merged AfD, for a more meaningful discussion about WP:NSKATE and related guidelines. Leaving all 51, minimally-attended individual AfDs to the luck of who saw the AfD will result in inconsistent outcomes, encouraging more BEFORE-less nominations. Owen× ☎ 13:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply

• Endorse Bad AfD conduct as noted by the participants--too many at once, copy/paste rationale, no or inadequate BEFORE--are all rebuttals to the presumed good faith of the nominations. This is a perfectly fine reason to reject an AfD: if the nominator didn't pay the encyclopedia and community due respect, then no return consideration is necessary. Otherwise, shotgun XFD nominations would be a WP:FAIT unless specifically and carefully rebutted. Jclemens ( talk) 13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Endorse with no prejudice against immediate re-nomination This underlying discussion is not a great example of what a deletion discussion should look like. On one hand, WP:NSKATE, as part of WP:NSPORT, is largely depreciated and I believe should be seen more like WP:OUTCOMES. However, since it still is an SNG, the community still thinks there is value in NSPORT, there is no obvious error in the nominator to nominate individuals who do not meet the criteria in WP:NSKATE. That said, failing the SNG does not mean that a subject must be deleted - as the subject can still merit an article by meeting GNG, and the nominator should review the existing sources. For the subsequent comments in this deletion discussion, there was no attempt to find or provide sources to show that the subject meets GNG. Instead, the points raised were to procedurally keep the article. While quick nominations are usually frowned on by the community, entering them in quick succession is not necessarily a problem, especially if the nominator did their homework prior to the nomination. And, just because other nominated articles in the same sequence may have sources, does not necessarily mean that this nomination was in error. All of this means to me that the close should be seen as a procedural keep and any editor could re-nominate the article. -- Enos733 ( talk) 15:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Endorse and allow immediate re-nomination the reason to delete was possibly not well thought through, the reasons to keep were procedural and not policy-driven, so it's basically like the discussion didn't happen at all. No problem with a new AfD, and if nominated by the same user, clear evidence of a WP:BEFORE search would be wise. SportingFlyer T· C 04:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Endorse an editor filing ~50 related AfDs in rapid succession should expect to face criticism for flooding the process. The proper response is to learn from the experience and do better next time. This is not that. LEPRICAVARK ( talk) 00:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Advice in general, if the nom cannot be grouped (and I think in this case they could not), you should probably keep it down to 3 or 4 noms a week in a given topic area. If someone is creating bad articles at a higher rate than that in a given topic area, talk to them and get them to slow down and see the AfD outcomes if you can. But yeah, flooding the system with these is never going to go well. Just don't do it. Hobit ( talk) 18:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC) reply
• Endorse closure but with permission to renominate on a slower and more careful basis. Stifle ( talk) 08:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC) reply