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Category:Glinka family
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Nominator's rationale: Small cat (n<3 ) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family
Mason (
talk) 20:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Can you show me the rule that say: categories with less than 3 items should be deleted?
Marcelus (
talk) 20:58, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia:SMALLCAT combined with the fact that when you have two people, it seems like an overcategorization because you can just link them on the page. I think that @
Marcocapelle described the core of the issue in
this quote "Wow, what a massive amount of overcategorization. Especially with few articles per family, all articles will link to each other directly (unless a very distant relationship) and a category does not add anything." The quotes from another larger bundle of family categories
Mason (
talk) 21:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I definitely wasn't me. And SMALLCAT doesn't say anything about items treshold, also it clearly says: Note also that this criterion does not preclude all small categories; a category which does have realistic potential for growth; Russian equivalent of the category has 20 items, Polish 6, so there is a clearly room for growth. And the category is actually quite useful because this family had two branches: Polish and Russian, both were quite significant.
Marcelus (
talk) 21:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
(apologies about the ping, I saw the first few letters and thought oh how convenient it found Marcocapelle without them needing to be in the conversation)
Mason (
talk) 21:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Can you expand upon what you mean by "Russian equivalent of the category has 20 items, Polish 6"? Are their supposed to be child categories? And yes, I know that small cat has the "realistic potential " piece
Mason (
talk) 21:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Check interlanguage wikilinks. Since you know about it, why you keep insisting on deleting the cat?
Marcelus (
talk) 21:34, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for clarifying about the interlanguage wiki, it didn't occur to me to look there. Regardless, I don't know why you're characterizing this conversation as me "insisting on deleting the cat". I'm asking questions to try to understand what you mean. I was also digging a little deeper to see if there were more potential pages to add. Because if there is a realistic potential for growth, I'd be happy to withdraw the nom.
Mason (
talk) 21:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
What I've done is temporarily added all the linked categories from the polish and russian categories. I'm trying to now go through to determine if they are actually related to the family category in question.
Mason (
talk) 22:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
FYI: there is no indication that
Elizaveta Glinka belongs to the noble family of Glinka, I think it's just a similarity of surnames
Marcelus (
talk) 22:04, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
That was my conclusion as well. She's in the Russian language category. And I think that illustrates a challenging point, that we can't really use the non-english language categories as showing "clearly room for growth".
Mason (
talk) 22:08, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
No, Dmitry was part of the Russian branch of the Glinka family; I just found an article about
Konstantin Glinka (
[1]) which says: He came from the great and widespread historical Glinka family, which included many famous scholars and people and the arts. Among them are: M. Glinka - composer, G. Glinka - slavophile, S. Glinka - professor of mineralogy at Moscow University, D. Glinka - philosopher and diplomat, and several writers and scientists who left their marks in literature and scienceMarcelus (
talk) 09:18, 15 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm glad that you've found some evidence since I looked at the category, but at the time I wrote that statement, there wasn't any in the article.
Mason (
talk) 16:14, 15 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I think it's reasonable to use them as indication. Can you please re-add category to
Dmitry Glinka (diplomat) (I provided a source in the article).
Marcelus (
talk) 09:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Sure, it's an weak indicator, but I don't think that it shows "clearly room for growth". I've added back
Dmitry Glinka (diplomat)[2]. This exchange has resulted in a much more populated category. However, I'd encourage you to rethink how combative your approach is. I approached this exchange in good faith, tried to see your perspective, asking you questions, etc. However, I don't feel as if you accorded me that same courtesy.
Mason (
talk) 16:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I am very sorry that you felt this way. My feeling is completely the opposite, I think that our exchange of views was very fruitful for both sides, and also for the wiki because it resulted in better category content.
Marcelus (
talk) 16:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm glad that you feel respected, as that was what I was trying to do. I agree that the category is better for it. However, if you look at our exchange, you made a lot of uncharitable interpretations and you've continued to do so.
Mason (
talk) 02:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok, you really need to be more specific than that at this point.
Marcelus (
talk) 08:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:British Burma
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Category:LGBT people from Somalia
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Merge, very obvious duplicate.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 10:40, 15 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: only one family in this category
Mason (
talk) 18:35, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Dual merge (not split) per nom.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 19:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
(my apologies for using split. I'm using twinkle and that was the easiest way to add two categories)
Mason (
talk) 19:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dobbs family
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Category:Teglev family
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Nominator's rationale: Small cat (n<3 ): a corresponding eponymous article about the family and one family member
Mason (
talk) 18:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Irons family
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Category:Lanigan-O'Keeffe family
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Category:Tremayne family
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Category:Tilney family
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Category:Stradling family
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Category:Bramall family
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Category:Restaurants serving Eastern European cuisine
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Nominator's rationale:delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Merging is not necessary because the subcategory is already in the tree of
Category:People from the Carolingian Empire.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:52, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete as redundant per nom. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 16:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 17:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Expatriates from the Dutch Republic in the Dutch East Indies
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Well, the Dutch... in... Dutch part would be a reason to question if an expatriate category is worth at all, a question which does not apply to all other categories. Also, it seems that the rate at which these categories are created is just higher that the rate at which we manage to discuss them (by that I mean hand-picked past political regimes).
Place Clichy (
talk) 01:09, 15 October 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Liz:, What @
Place Clichy is delicately alluding to is that the creator of the categories @
Johnpacklambert can't or won't engage with the issue. They just keep creating more categories that have the same problem of small underpopulated categories that intersect with regime with occupation and nationality.
Mason (
talk) 18:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:9th-century Frankish writers
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Nominator's rationale:merge, overlapping categories, the Carolingian Empire is usually counted from 800 to 888.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:48, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 17:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Science centers
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The result of the discussion was:merge as nominated i.e. merge to the "Science museums" categories. There is consensus for this option over the "Science centres and museums" option, on the basis that it is simpler, that
Category:Science museums by country contains more categories that would be made inconsistent by the proposed alt rename, and because there would be little benefit with the alt.
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 20:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: The difference between a science "center" and a science "museum", while technically hinging on whether it presents science in a "hands-on" experiential or "hands-off" exhibitional manner, isn't always clearcut or unambiguous — even a thing that calls itself a "museum" instead of a "center" can still include at least some "hands-on" content, for example — with the result that individual institutions are frequently categorized as being both things at the same time, or only as a "museum" when "center" would also be warranted. Ultimately, the distinction really has less to do with museums and centers being different things, and more to do with some institutions branding themselves with a different word than other institutions do — but at the very least, it isn't a consistently clear-cut difference that can be reliably categorized for without dispute or debate. We could potentially also consider renaming the target category to encompass both terms, but it's not at all clear that we would need two separate category trees when even the real world doesn't consistently uphold a clear and unequivocal distinction, and even the mainspace title
science center itself is just a redirect to
science museum rather than its own separate article. Note that any upmerging of the contents should be done in a selective and partial manual fashion, as many (though not necessarily all) of the individual entries are already in an appropriate "Science museums in [Country]" subcategory, and thus should just have the "centers" category removed rather than being
duplicate categorized into the parent.
Bearcat (
talk) 15:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. What if we renamed them to "Science centers and museums"?
Mason (
talk) 16:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC)reply
That would be fine. I have no strong preference as to whether it should be "centers and museums" or "museums and centers", but I did suggest renaming the target categories as an option — however, either way, I would note that
WP:ENGVAR demands "centres" rather than "centers" for the UK and India, although I don't know whether British-English "centre" or American-English "center" would be more consistent with our practices when it comes to Taiwan. And if we do go ahead with renaming, that would also have to encompass the "Science museums in Country" categories that aren't under discussion here because those countries never had a parallel "centers/centres" category created.
Bearcat (
talk) 13:18, 12 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Good points. (Sorry I missed the rename suggestion in the text). I think the merge and rename to the broader museum + center/re is worthwhile, especially given the fuzziness. I'm ok with also broadening the parent category to museum + center/re. (I don't care about the ordering; so I'd love if someone did have opinions on that.
Mason (
talk) 02:35, 13 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Well, since (presumably), all science centres/ers are museums, but not all museums are science centres/ers, I think "museums" should be first. Also, if "science" isn't a clear adjective for museums, all museums would be added. So rename/merge to
Category:Science museums and centers. (retaining -ers per ENGVAR. The subcats will vary by local usage, per normal.) - jc37 13:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)reply
That makes sense, start with the general term first and then the narrower term second.
Bearcat (
talk) 11:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: No consensus yet on the naming convention for the merged categories. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 03:41, 23 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge as nominated (simplest solution) or else to "museums and centers" (having "museums" first, per Jc37).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge. I created these categories, but I think the proposed solution makes more sense in hindsight.--
KaraLG84 (
talk) 11:39, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Tagging the "science museums" categories that were listed as targets and are now proposed for renaming. Note that these are only a small subset of
Category:Science museums or
Category:Science museums by country. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
FayenaticLondon 10:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Listed as procedural additions to nomination. –
FayenaticLondon 10:34, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per original nomination. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 15:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Just to re-affirm from my comments above - Rename/Merge to
Category:Science museums and centers. Retaining -ers per ENGVAR. The subcats will vary by local usage, per normal, as noted by
Fayenatic london, above. - jc37 15:06, 17 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per original nomination (i.e., centers->museums; do not rename anything). I will not repeat the sound arguments above for why the status quo is undesirable. However, I disagree that these need to be renamed. All centers are museums; we would be sacrificing brevity for no gain in accuracy.
HouseBlastertalk 16:55, 23 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Pompeii (ancient city)
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Support. Unnecessary disambiguation: it seems perfectly clear that "people from Pompeii" refers to a place. Even though "Pompeii" by itself could mean more than one thing, other uses would not be worded like this. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that other uses of "Pompeii" are inappropriate for article or category names, or that unlike this category, they require disambiguation; merely that in this instance there is no ambiguity.
P Aculeius (
talk) 07:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 17:49, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 17:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
It occurs to me, it would be useful to leave a redirect.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Tenochca military leaders
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The result of the discussion was:delete without prejudice against recreation if it can be populated.
(non-admin closure)HouseBlastertalk 20:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:delete for now, currently only one article and it is questionable whether it belongs here. We apparently just know that the subject died in battle. The article is already in
Category:Tenochca nobility so there is no reason to merge.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 04:03, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 17:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from the Khanate of Khiva
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Category:People from Egbaland
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Category:Armenian Oriental Orthodox Christians
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Nominator's rationale: Although I guess it would be theoretically possible for an Armenian national to be a member of a different Oriental Orthodox church, in practice everyone in this category is a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church. I don't believe that other Oriental Orthodox churches even operate in Armenia. (
t ·
c) buidhe 01:05, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. Note that this is a downmerge, this should be implemented manually in order to preserve the proper parenting.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 03:54, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
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