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Merge per nom. The category of Georgia (country) may also be merged to Asia (the whole country is on the continent borderline), while the category of Turkey should be merged to Asia only (because the fires were specifically in the Asian part of the country).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Procedural relist, as the categories were not tagged. Five of the nominated categories were deleted in a duplicate CfD at
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_May_13#Wildfires. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 23:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Criminals
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The result of the discussion was:keep. There seems to be agreement, at least, that amcient and medieval criminals cannot always be classified with certainty as convicted, and with the other categories such as
Category:Suspected criminals.
(non-admin closure) –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 17:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This would bring things into line with the
Category:People by criminal conviction. Also, there's the argument for the use of person-first language. I.e, we have a category called '
Category:People with schizophrenia', not 'Category:Schizophrenics'. I've been brought to this parent category after seeing a 'criminal' category at
Jack Charles, who was indeed convicted of many crimes, but was famous for what he accomplished out of prison. Secondly, this category may be factually inaccurate in countries that operate a
spent conviction scheme, where a person is no longer considered to have a criminal record after certain period of time, as would be the case with
David Kang. Here is an example of a person who was indeed convicted of a crime, though is clearly not a career criminal, and no longer even has a criminal record, as the category would suggest.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 04:01, 20 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose It narrows the scope of the category significantly. Things like
Category:Works about criminals would no longer fit in the category's new scope. I should also note that your comparison is flawed; there is a
Category:Schizophrenia that is similar to this one.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 05:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Renaming does not help in this case. With or without renaming, they are simply not people convicted of crime as you propose the parent category to become. 08:26, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining; that makes sense. I'm sure we could just relocate it to
Category:Crime then.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 08:45, 20 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I know I'm somewhat splitting hairs here, but by definition, if they weren't given a trial or convicted, they weren't a 'criminal' in a legal sense at least. There aren't many articles in Ancient criminals. Picking the first one at random,
Nasra of Tao-Klarjeti, shows the categories
Category:Medieval murderers and
Category:9th-century criminals. I don't see why we couldn't change 'Category:9th-century criminals' to 'Category:9th-century murderers', which is more specific and helpful anyway.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 02:05, 21 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Renaming to murderers does not help (besides
Fatima bint Al-Aswad was a thief in the 7th century), the point is that information about a trial is sometimes lacking, and/or a trial was deemed unnecessary.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:26, 21 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm not seeing how renaming to murderers does not help, or your point with Fatima; just give her 'Category:7th-century thiefs' then instead of murderers. Lots of people throughout history have been executed without trial; that doesn't mean they were automatically guilty of whatever they were accused of.
I've come across issues in the past on Wikipedia where events in the ancient world don't fit in nicely with modern categorisation. This should not be surprising, and it wouldn't be hard to find a work-around, but it's clear this nomination isn't going to pass at this time, so I'm happy to drop the issue for now.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 02:01, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Zxcvbnm: I think it is your comparison that is flawed.
Category:Schizophrenia is not remotely similar to
Category:Criminals. Most articles in Category:Criminals are of individual people, whereas articles are in :Category:Schizophrenia are about health and treatment. Individual people within the parent category are instead located within
Category:People with schizophrenia.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 06:35, 20 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Well, beyond that,
WP:CONCISE is a thing and would prevent it from being renamed.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 06:47, 20 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't see how WP:CONCISE automatically overrules this. Being concise should not overrule being factually accurate, or being respectful. There are currently people in
Category:Criminals that do not have a criminal record, and I personally would strongly oppose changing
Category:People with schizophrenia to Category:Schizophrenics just because it's shorter.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 07:00, 20 April 2023 (UTC)reply
OpposeConvictions are non-defining. Descriptions of the specific crimes should have more relevance.
Dimadick (
talk) 19:50, 20 April 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Dimadick: I am assuming good faith. Can you please explain how :Category:Criminals, what I'm asking to replace, is more specific than :Category:People convicted of crime? Descriptions of specific crimes should have more relevance, but that's neither here nor there as far as I can see since neither what we already have, nor what I'm asking to replace it with, specifies the crime committed.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 01:58, 21 April 2023 (UTC)reply
We have plenty of articles on known assassins and would-be assassins who were never put on trial. And several articles on members of
organized crime who got away with murders.
Big Jim Colosimo is famous for being a
crime boss and founding a "criminal empire", but was never convicted of any crime or imprisoned. Based on your proposal, Colosimo would not qualify for the category
Category:People convicted of crime.
Dimadick (
talk) 10:21, 21 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't see a problem with that. One definition of a criminal is a person convicted of a crime; that doesn't mean we have to blanketly insinuate everyone who has committed a crime is a career criminal, when we could instead use person-first language. Every person on the planet has violated a law at some point that they weren't caught for, even if that's just littering or going slightly over the speed limit. Besides, no matter whether we leave it as it is, or change to what I'm proposing, it's never going to fit perfectly with every imaginable article. As I've mentioned, we currently have people in
Category:Criminals who are labelled as a 'criminal' as their identity as a person, even though they were convicted of an offence that did not even result in imprisonment, and who no longer even have a criminal record due to
spent convictions.
Damien Linnane (
talk) 11:31, 21 April 2023 (UTC)reply
"Every person on the planet has violated a law at some point that they weren't caught for" Yeah, yeah. I already got the advice from my father that it is only a crime if you get caught. When I was a kid, he used it to justify several of his actions, from
shop lifting to
extramarital affairs. Former
altar boys like dad have learned some lessons about secrecy.
Dimadick (
talk) 07:46, 15 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Was the only remaining open CfD on April 20, category wasn't tagged, and there is no clear consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 22:50, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Let me just add that in principle I support the proposal, in modern times it is the conviction that makes someone a criminal. But the farther away in history the more unsure and blurry everything becomes and historians can only assess probabilities rather than certainties. That should not prevent us from categorizing, which is just providing a convenient way to navigate between related articles.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Asia Cup Qualifications
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Rename This is a clearer to me. (If there is some
WP:ENGVAR issue here, let me know.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 02:26, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: May require an RM for an associated article to sort out... Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 03:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Defer That discussion with people closer to the subject is more likely to get the right outcome. Defer to
WP:RM. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 20:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: The article was moved to
2022 Asia Cup Qualifier. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 22:24, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support as the common name, as agreed in the now closed RM.
Joseph2302 (
talk) 07:21, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Speedy Rename the outcome of the
WP:RM makes it clear this is the right title. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Categories for presently serving Indian state legislators
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Nominator's rationale: Being a
parliamentary system, the terms of Indian state legislators aren't fixed, subject to early dissolution of legislature, which may occur at any time even if the scheduled 5 years aren't over yet. Having the end year in the category name is
WP:CRYSTALBALL. —CX Zoom[he/him](
let's talk • {
C•
X}) 19:55, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: For the rest (ignoring the ones i opposed above), I take the point about CRYSTALBALL, but most of Indian state legislative terms have finished their full 5-year terms. Naming a category to "XYZ 2019–present" would need us to definitely do a rename at the beginning of the 5th year (2024 in this case) in 100% of the cases. My educated guess is that less than 10% of the legislative terms, since 2000, have been less than 5 years. Renaming the categories of only the much smaller percentage of legislatures that have attenuated terms, would involve less work. -
MPGuy2824 (
talk) 02:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Azerbaijani-speaking countries and territories
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Category:Ukrainian-speaking countries and territories
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Nominator's rationale: The Turkish language is non-defining for these towns/villages/areas as "territories", because it has no official status. All 3 items are also already in the child category or one of its grandchildren, so it's a redundant category anyway.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Tamil-speaking countries and territories
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Comment, Tamil is also "recognized as a minority language" in various forms in other countries. This is another example where "official language" seems a too strict criterion.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 19:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Persian-speaking countries and territories
Category:Somali-speaking countries and territories
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Category:Rohingya-speaking territories
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Nominator's rationale:WP:ARBITRARYCAT. There seems to be no territory where the
Rohingya language is official or co-official. The 3 territories which this cat had when I found it (
Rakhine State,
Cox's Bazar District,
Maungdaw District) just had a certain amount of Rohingya speakers which the creator apparently found to be significant, without criteria. Although I think the fate of the Rohingya people should not be ignored, this categorisation is not the way to do it. I initially moved
Cox's Bazar District to
Category:Rohingya diaspora due to the large number of Rohingya refugees there, but I'm not sure it's a good solution either, because 725,000 refugees on a 2,823,265 total population is still not a majority. This topic is much better explained at
Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh than by arbitrarily categorising this district as a "Rohingya-speaking territory".
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 16:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. No jurisdictions where Rohingya is an official language. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 04:09, 11 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:1569 establishments in Belarus
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Nominator's rationale: Misguided categories that are being used to overcategorize the
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. These aren't being used to categorize individual things (towns, organizations, etc.) that were established in the future-Belarus and future-Ukraine regions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the Commonwealth era, they're being used to categorize the Commonwealth itself, so that it's being five-catted as a "YYYY [dis]establishment in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" and a "YYYY [dis]establishment in Poland" and a "YYYY [dis]establishment in Lithuania" and a "YYYY [dis]establishment in Belarus" and a "YYYY [dis]establishment in Ukraine" all at the same time. But neither Belarus nor Ukraine existed under those names at the time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, so the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was clearly not "in" either of them: the "what was in what" relationship went the opposite way.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Public high schools in suburbs of Atlanta
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Oppose. Gentle reminder that "rcat" is an acronym for "redirect category", so this category's full name should be Category:Redirect category template documentation pages. The /doc pages found in the category are actually found on "redirect category templates'" pages, not on the "redirect template" page. The {{redirect template}} is in fact a meta template used within most redirect category (rcat) templates. So I really don't see any logical reason to make this change. If done correctly and renamed to "Category:Redirect category template documentation pages", we would just be making the category name overly precise. If the proposed name is used, then it would be not only less concise, but also incorrect. The entries in the category are not documentation pages of the redirect template, they are documentation pages of all of the redirect category (rcat) templates. P.I. Ellsworth ,
ed.put'er there 04:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, paceUser:Paine Ellsworth. I've never considered "redirect category templates" to be a helpful name. These templates go on hard redirect pages in mainspace, not on categories. Perhaps a widespread change to explain Rcats as "redirect categorization templates" would be helpful. –
FayenaticLondon 10:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Have no problem with renaming Category:Redirect categorization template documentation pages. "Rcat" could mean either. Yet, I still don't see the need to rename at all. Acronyms abound in non-article titles and are defined in the content or documentation. If such precision is needed in page titles, I'm not really averse to it. P.I. Ellsworth ,
ed.put'er there 18:18, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NONDEF. These works are not widely described by their setting if they are discussed. For example, one might read "Children of Dune, the well-known science fiction novel", but not "Children of Dune, the well-known desert novel". Sandstein 05:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. Per the Man in Question. I'd also note the other related category trees
Category:Deserts in fiction and
Category:Fiction by setting. Further critical commentary on the Dune series does widely discuss Children of Dune as being set on a desert planet as it is a central point in relation to events in the novel. That was a bad example as the cat is more than appropriate for that work.
4meter4 (
talk) 09:50, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Quazar albums
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Nominator's rationale:DELETEWP:SMALLCAT -- there can only be 1 album in this category as the founder of this band died before the album was released in 1978 and the band immediately dissolved. The band does not have an article, so the albumcat header template is pointing to the wrong article (
Quazar) as the "main" article. The sole article,
Quazar (album) can be upmerged to
Category:Funk albums by American artists and
Category:P-Funk albums --
64.229.90.172 (
talk) 05:40, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep - the band is the paramount defining characteristic of an album. Also
Category:Albums by artist states "Please note that all single-artist album articles may have subcategories here, even if it's the only album the artist has recorded."
Oculi (
talk) 10:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
It shouldn't be "Quazar" as the current title indicates (as it currently mislinks to the wrong article), as any potential article would be
Quazar (band) or further disambiguated, so if this is kept would need to be renamed
Category:Quazar (band) albums or further disambiguation.
And we delete low entry band categories, which would seem to be extremely defining (such as the missing parent for this album article isn't in the band category tree) Tree navigation from the bands/artist trees has been broken since we've been deleting low count categories from it, so no cross-link between an albumcat and their corresponding bookcat or songcat. etc. Thus this doesn't seem like it is a good exception, if we don't have the full category tree by artist, only a partial tree coming through albums.
This comment may be based on a misunderstanding. We do not need a complete tree of eponymous categories by artist at all, because the albums and songs are complete and are linking to each other. Eponymous categories usually do not add anything. See also
WP:OCEPON.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep per SMALLCAT exception. The albumcat header can be adjusted so it doesn't link to the "Quazar" article, or the category can be renamed with a disambiguator as suggested by the IP. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 15:49, 2 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Witch trials in America
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Category:Brunei Wikipedians
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Category:Governor General's Performing Arts Award winners
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Nominator's rationale: The Governor General's Performing Arts Awards are not a competitive award like the Oscars or the Junos, but are a lifetime achievement award that's essentially Canada's equivalent to the Kennedy Center Honors -- so the category is really more accurately named "recipients" or "honorees" rather than "winners", because it's not an award that has "winners" or "losers" as such.
Bearcat (
talk) 00:41, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:OCAWARD and
WP:NONDEFINING. I read through the first 5 articles, and this award is usually listed in passing with other honours that were typically earned earlier in their career: see
1,
2,
3,
4, although the
5th is an exception and lists it in the lede. Lifetime achievement awards tend to just reflect the pre-existing fame of people rather than defining them. (Alternatively, if kept, support the rename.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
It's not one iota less defining than
Category:Kennedy Center honorees. If that gets a category, this does too. I'll grant that nobody was previously arsed to write a full article that listed all of the nominees, and instead it's long made do with a redirect to a subsection in the general overview
Governor General's Awards alongside awards in five other domains, but that's going to change in about 20 minutes as soon as I'm done referencing the 2010s in sandbox.
Bearcat (
talk) 03:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument is more persuasive for countries with few English speaking people or those with less access to technology where we have to worry about systemic bias. Even though we disagree on the cat, appreciate your work to improve the article space! -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 04:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
No. The onus is on you to demonstrate a reason why the Kennedy Center Honors would be notable enough to merit a category and yet this somehow would not.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:14, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't accept that other stuff exists burden (see
WP:CFDSCOPE), but I'll reply anyway: both categories are non-defining and should be listified, and the same goes for a majority of other award recipient categories. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:33, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Grammy Award venues
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Category:Tarski lecturers
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Since 1989, the University of California Berkeley hosts the annual
Tarski Lecture on mathematical logic and this category groups people who gave the talk. It's considered an honor to be invited but the performance sure isn't treated as defining in the articles: about a third mention it in passing while about two thirds don't mention it at all. The category contents are already listed
right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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