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Category:Bohemian people by city or town
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Nominator's rationale:delete, we usually do not categorize (modern) people by historical region but rather by contemporary administrative division.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:38, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete If this was people self-identifying as a Bohemian ethnicity that would be different but it's not. Delete per nom. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 02:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Czech writers by period
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Category:Commonwealth Games coaches
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Category:Transport hazards
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Category:Bohemian people by period
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NARROWCAT. All centuries except the 16th, 17th and 18th century are "medieval", and these aren't found directly in
Category:Bohemian people by period, so this redundant layer obstructs rather than aids navigation. Same goes for
Category:People of medieval Bohemia, which contains exactly the same stuff as
Category:Bohemian people by century minus the 16th, 17th and 18th. (We could also upmerge Medieval Bohemian fooers while we're at it, but I don't want to rush things, as these are probably part of more complicated "medieval" trees).
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:53, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose this way,
Category:People of medieval Bohemia does not only contain people by century, but also people by occupation and women and saints, for which the target is not a good fit.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:43, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Support alt merge (not surprisingly as it was my own suggestion), it is a redundant category layer with only two subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 14:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Alt Merge as documented above by Nederlandse Leeuw. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:17, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Medieval bishops in the Holy Roman Empire
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Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Other countries in Western Christianity do not have a similar duplication.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak Support It's a coherent tree structure. I note also that
Category:16th-century bishops in the Holy Roman Empire contains Protestant bishops. Theoretically, these nominations could contain Orthodox bishops, but until such are created as articles, I'll let it go.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 14:52, 4 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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European people by country
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Nominator's rationale: I created all these categories. There is no such thing as "European people". It's not an ethnicity or a nationality. It is a geo-political space.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 13:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't understand. Who did the de-populating? I can see it wasn't you; you actually created a new subcategory for it today after it was nommed for speedy delete yesterday. Perhaps someone else yesterday emptied it out of process?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:06, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Oh wait I see the discussion on your talk page now...
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok so it was Mason who did it. Liz hasn't dropped him a note yet as LL recommended; Faye did without tagging, but Mason still seems unaware that he ECOOPed.
Ok, I'll do it: @
Smasongarrison: Hi, please do not
empty categories out of process (ECOOP). As Faye said on his talk page, please take a category here to CFD before you empty it of its last subcategory or item, otherwise it hinders the categorisation process. It looks like you made an unintentional mistake, that can happen. Hopefully you can prevent it next time.
Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:32, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Ahh, yep, I seem to have been the one to accidentally depopulate. My apologies that wasn't my intent. I'll do my best to remember to check that I didn't gut the old category in the future.
Mason (
talk) 14:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support. Regardless, I support the nominated rename for what's its worth as it's helpful with navigating the distinction between where folks are born versus where folks are serving.
Mason (
talk) 18:40, 29 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes. I should probably have linked to that discussion. I too leaped to the same erroneous conclusion. And yes, it will be nice for Monarchs to have a proper home 'in' Europe.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 14:36, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Yeah, this is how I can imagine just how frustrating it must be for Liz and anyone else who wants to check who did the ECOOPing, because the category history doesn't show which items were removed from it by whom and when. You just kinda have to look for patterns everywhere. I ran into you, Faye, Mason and I just couldn't tell who was responsible for emptying. Maybe we should have some kind of public log for category membership? It shouldn't take me a bloody half hour to find out who emptied it. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
That's a really good idea. I don't have the skills to build it though.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 14:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I asked a Wikimedia friend of mine. She said she wouldn't know either. "Categories are filled because an item refers to that category. It takes a fair amount of computing power to keep track of whether there are changes to that. It is quite reasonable that that is not already done for everything. It's not free." I get that.
Maybe we should ask Liz how she keeps track of who emptied categories?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
This script does it, for changes in the last month or so.
Oculi (
talk) 17:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I tested it today, it appears to work, thanks!
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom (i.e. not an ethnicity or nationality). I don't think the precedent of monarchs weighs heavily because for monarchs it was specifically relevant to distinguish where they were born versus where they reigned.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I support the target names rather than the current names, and renaming could have gone ahead instantly under
WP:C2E. However, now that the categories have been nominated for a full discussion, we should be asking what is the benefit of having them? Is
Monarchs in Europe is sub-catted by century, so I will add those.
19th-century diplomats and
20th-century diplomats have multiple subcats by destination country, but not enough to subcat Europe on its own, and no others in
Diplomats by century currently show potential for such navigation. Sportspeople is currently the other profession with many expatriates, but the surviving subcats of
Category:Sportspeople by century are by nationality rather by country, so there is nothing there to be added. If we will have only bishops and monarchs, I suggest deleting the nominated set as not useful for navigation. –
FayenaticLondon 09:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)reply
In the sportspeople tree structure, a lot of things have been moved from "by country" trees to "by nationality" trees. So little wonder that the structure looks sparse. There are many people whose professional life means that they operate outside of the country of their birth. Expatriates, missionaries, explorers, geographers, linguists, diplomats, political prisoners detained by foreign governments etc are all useful members of "by country" tree structures. Or they would be if they were not being consistently, and IMHO, erroneously shifted to "by nationality" trees.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 09:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Bishops are already divided by country and century – that hierarchy is not being attacked or debated – the question is what other occupations could be added to the nominated hierarchy after bishops and monarchs. Missionary articles are generally in small numbers by country in Europe, which would not bear subdivision into intersection categories by century; apparently very few exceptions have larger numbers e.g. Mormon missionaries in UK or Germany. Explorers of Canada would bear division, but is irrelevant to this nomination as
Category:Explorers by country has no explorers of countries in Europe. Expatriates strikes me as too generic to sub-cat by century; e.g.
Category:Expatriates in Austria is currently sub-catted by occupation and by origin (nationality), and I don't see
Category:20th-century expatriates in Austria taking off as a useful hierarchy. Ambassadors has potential in theory, but what use would it be to build e.g.
Category:20th-century ambassadors to Germany? So I think bishops and monarchs are the only contents here. They have their own hierarchies, and do not need a "People in Europe" parent to bracket them together. –
FayenaticLondon 11:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete as not useful to navigate only between bishops and monarchs. –
FayenaticLondon 11:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 15:39, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Question/Oppose for now does "people in Europe" include people who are there for short periods of time, or less than a year, or one year, or a few years? "European people" means people who have citizenship in a European country to me. Or, if it is not clear that there was a status such as citizenship, someone for whom we would say "So-and-so was a German so-and-so".
—DIYeditor (
talk) 04:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)reply
@
DIYeditor: neither is the case. "People in Europe" is meant for people who exercised their occupation in a (part of a) European country: kings of a country, bishops of a diocese. While I think of it, governors of provinces might be added, if the category is kept. "European people" is broader than citizenship, first of all because citizenship is a modern concept and we apply this sort of categories throughout the entire human history. Second, even with modern people, when they move from one country to another, we often do not know if they changed citizenship and still put them in a nationality category of their new country. I have argued in the past that the two category trees might just as well be merged but there was insufficient consensus for that.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:29, 4 August 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle: then might a merger to those existing categories be the better change than this alternative wording that still keeps them separate?
—DIYeditor (
talk) 09:09, 4 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename for now. I'm sympathtetic to the side conversation about broader mergers from DIYeditor and Marcocapelle above. But, in the mean time, the proposed category names are clearer than the current ones. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films about cryogenics
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 15:32, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Languages used in Google Translate
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Nominator's rationale: Not defining.
Nardog (
talk) 14:20, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Support: It seems to me like any use a reader might have for this category would be more neatly served by a list of languages at
Google Translate. Support by any given software or service is a peripheral fact about a language, & proliferation of categories that are unlikely to aid Wikipedia readers makes sorting thru the other categories listed for a given page harder.
Pathawi (
talk) 15:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
At best, rename, but probably delete. The first thing that struck me when I came across one of these was the name. A language isn't "used in" Google Translate. Google Translate offers translations to or from the language.
More significantly, this doesn't seem like an interesting or useful intersection. It is an intersection insofar as it suggests future addition of corresponding sets of categories with entries like "Languages of Myanmar translated by ChatGPT". Also suggesting that such categories are to come is another category created by the creator of the cats already being considered here,
Category:Languages of Africa with machine translation technology, which I would like to see included in this list or made the subject of its own CFD entry. I don't know which is better, so I'm leaving that question open here.
With a single exception, I suspect that nothing in reliable sources indicates an interest in such breakdowns. (The only exception is that I can imagine, early on, somebody complaining, or suspecting, that services like Google Translates cater entirely to first-world languages, and finding it useful to know that the available languages are diverse.) So, I'm gonna go with overcategorization on this one.
Largoplazo (
talk) 19:38, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't feel as strongly about the "with machine translation technology" categories. Please nominate them separately if you think they should also be deleted.
Nardog (
talk) 05:31, 4 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. To be honest, "languages used in the
Voyager Golden Record" are more defining than the continents or countries where certain languages are "of" are used in a commercial online machine translation app (that frequently and hilariously gets things wrong).
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Just saying that without giving any reason isn't enough. --
Haoreima (
talk) 14:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep: The categories are containing only a definite number of items (articles) as Google Translate approved languages are systematically definite, neither more not less. I believe it will help readers a lot to find out which one is available in Google Translate and which one is not. --
Haoreima (
talk) 14:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
They can find that information in Google Translate itself, they do not need Wikipedia for it. See
WP:NOTDIR.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 14:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't envision anyone having a question of the nature of which languages of Myanmar are supported by Google Translate. And why would they come here instead of to Google Translate for that information? It's like creating a category "Features supported by Microsoft Word" and putting
Justification (typesetting) and
Cross-referencing and many other features in that category, perhaps even breaking them down into "Typesetting features supported by Microsoft Word" and "Linking features support by Microsoft Word". That information belongs on the vendor's website, and Wikipedia shouldn't be serving as a feature classification service for arbitrary products.
Largoplazo (
talk) 15:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
There's a list of supported languages within our page
Google Translate, which seems to me like the appropriate place for this kind of information.
Pathawi (
talk) 20:13, 6 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete No objection to listing this on a Google Translate article, but this feels like
WP:NOTCATALOG. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dhaka Platoon
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Nominator's rationale:WP:SMALLCAT, and an upmerge of the one article to parent
Category:Cricket teams in Bangladesh is inappropriate, so deletion is best course of action.
Dhaka Platoon could also be added to this category, but this isn't enough articles to warrant a separate category
Joseph2302 (
talk) 10:31, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete, the only article is about a season rather than about a team, so the category is virtually empty.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:49, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Biostasis in literature
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Nominator's rationale:rename and re-parent per
The Pathfinder series, biostasis is not a defining characteristic of these novels, the fact that they are part of a series is.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 03:34, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per actual contents; there are no non-Pathfinder works in the category. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 12:53, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:DEFA
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Category:National Highways in China
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Nominator's rationale: "National highway" isn't a generic term with the same meaning everywhere, but a specific designation that varies by jurisdiction. The primary attribute of these categories is the designation by their respective governments, not mere geographical location. The format National highways of Foo would better reflect that. (I have no opinion on whether they should be treated as proper nouns, and have proposed no changes to the capitalisation. I'd be fine with suggestions otherwise.)
Paul_012 (
talk) 04:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 15:55, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 20:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose I think location is more defining than "ownership".
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Will be listing the alt proposal shortly... Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 00:31, 3 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose alt proposal, as original nominator. By all means create Highways in Foo categories as parents, but as I have tried to point out above, national highway is a specific legal designation, often one among many, and not just any kind of highway. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 13:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)reply
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