-
Category:Towns in Na h-Eileanan Siar to
Category:Towns in the Outer Hebrides – C2C and C2D per
Category:Outer Hebrides/
Outer Hebrides, I redirected
Category:Populated places in Na h-Eileanan Siar to
Category:Populated places in the Outer Hebrides.
Crouch, Swale (
talk)
12:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose: We have categories for towns in every other Scottish local authority except the city ones (see
Category:Towns in Scotland by council area) so we ought to have this one, even though there is only one town. --
86.184.106.67 (
talk)
21:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
reply
- This is a rename not a merge so you're opposition doesn't appear appropriate, although I question if we need a category for towns in the Outer Hebrides as you say there is a category for every other council area that has any that aren't cities, Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow. Note that "Outer Hebrides" is treated as the archipelago and council area.
Crouch, Swale (
talk)
06:12, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
reply
- A rename would be inappropriate, as it would change the meaning. Outer Hebrides and Na h-Eileanan Siar are not the same thing, though Wikipedia tends to get them confused. Outer Hebrides is not, and never has been, any kind of council area or other political entity; it is a loosely defined term referring to the island chain ("archipelago" as Wikipedia likes to call it, though no-one in the real world ever would) stretching from Lewis in the north to Berneray in the south. Na h-Eileanan Siar is one of the 32 local government council areas of Scotland, and covers a much wider area, including also the outlying islands and groups of St Kilda, Rona, Sula Sgeir and Rockall. It seems appropriate that we should have a category for towns in the council area, but not one for towns on an island chain within it, even though in practice both categories would have the same membership. --
81.154.143.15 (
talk)
10:30, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
reply
-
Na h-Eileanan Siar/
Category:Na h-Eileanan Siar redirect to
Outer Hebrides/
Category:Outer Hebrides. Only
Category:Sport in Na h-Eileanan Siar,
Category:Rugby union in Na h-Eileanan Siar and
Category:Stone circles in Na h-Eileanan Siar use "Na h-Eileanan Siar". Yes St Kilda, Rona, Sula Sgeir and Rockall are in the council area but as you say the archipelago is a loosely defined term so that's probably one of the reasons why there aren't 2 separate articles/categories. In any case "Na h-Eileanan Siar" is the Scottish Gaelic name for "Outer Hebrides" rather than a name only used for the council area. The Ordnance Survey uses "Outer Hebrides" for the archipelago and "Na h-Eileanan Siar" for the council area but since the council area is a sub topic of the archipelago its logical to use the English name. Its odd to want this one to use "Na h-Eileanan Siar" anyway since the only town is on the main island anyway while some of the categories like
Category:Uninhabited islands of the Outer Hebrides do have articles (like Rockall) that aren't part of the main group.
Crouch, Swale (
talk)
18:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
reply
- As I said before, Wikipedia gets things terribly confused, but the category under discussion here is one of the few that does appear to be correct at present. Those redirects are wrong. "Na h-Eileanan Siar" is not the Gaelic name for "Outer Hebrides"; the English equivalent is "Western Isles", which used to be the name of the local authority, and is still widely used although officially no longer correct. The Ordnance Survey is not a reliable guide to naming, as its surveyors had little local knowledge. --
81.154.143.15 (
talk)
23:21, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
reply
- "Western Isles" is an alternative name for the "Outer Hebrides" even though it is/was sometimes used for the entire Hebrides. If you do want to make a distinction then you should start at the top category not one of the bottom ones.
Crouch, Swale (
talk)
08:33, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
reply
- That is not true, the terms are not equivalent. "Western Isles" was the name of the local authority area from its founding in 1975 until 1997 when it became "Na h-Eileanan Siar", although in practice you will often still hear it spoken of as (the) "Western Isles". "Outer Hebrides" has never had any well-defined meaning, and it has certainly never been a formal division of Scotland. It is a term used to attract tourists, but is rarely heard locally. It's true that the term "Western Isles" has also been used in a looser wider sense, but it is generally understood in its precise meaning. Wikipedia really ought to reflect the correct usage rather than its current state of confusion, and I agree it should apply from the top category down, but this happens to be where the issue has been raised. There seems little point in renaming this category from its currently correct form just because other categories use wrong forms. --
81.154.143.15 (
talk)
22:36, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
reply
- The terms do appear to be equivalent, souces
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5] suggest all 3 terms are for the same thing, namely "Outer Hebrides" is the English name for the archipelago, "Western Isles" is an alternative English name (that is/was occasionally used to apply to the entire Hebrides" and is sometimes the name of the council area) and "Na h-Eileanan Siar" is the name of the council area in English (and the Gaelic name of both). In any case there seem to be 2 options here (and we can put this discussion on hold), if you're suggesting that the entire article (and sub articles and category tree) should go to "Na h-Eileanan Siar" then you should file a
WP:RM at
Talk:Outer Hebrides and follow up with nominating the category tree if successful. This has previously been proposed, see the archives of that talk page. If you're suggesting that we have separate articles (and categories) with
Outer Hebrides for the main group and
Na h-Eileanan Siar for the other areas to (such as St Kilda and Rockall) then you should probably also propose that at
Talk:Outer Hebrides, see
WP:PROSPLIT. I also doubt that that would be appropriate since as noted it does seem like they mean the same thing and the council area (the council already has an article at
Comhairle nan Eilean Siar) is a sub topic of the island group so using the English name for the island group seems appropriate per
WP:USENGLISH. There is a discussion at
Commons:Commons:Categories for discussion/2019/05/Category:Na h-Eileanan Siar. Compare this to the fact for example that the OS names
Isle of Lewis "Isle of Lewis/Eilean Leтdhais" showing that the 1st is the English name while the 2nd is the Gaelic name so we go with the English name, while for
Jura it doesn't even mention the Gaelic name (Diùra) so there's no question there but for
Eilean Mòr it only uses the Gaelic name so we don't translate it to "Big Island".
Crouch, Swale (
talk)
12:58, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
reply
- Support' this one, because
Outer Hebrides clearly explains that both termes are equivalent, either for the island group or the administrative division.
Place Clichy (
talk)
14:40, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
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