- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. You are in a twisty maze of D&D AfDs, all alike. Merge, maybe? But for now, makes its saving throw against deletion. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Vampire (Dungeons & Dragons)
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Totally non-notable article that fails WP:GNG and WP:GAMEGUIDE. Sourced almost entirely to WP:PRIMARY sources. Vampires in the context of a single game are not encyclopedic enough for a standalone article. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 01:04, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 01:04, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 01:04, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 01:04, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep and improve, or, barring that,
movemerge to Vampires in games and refactor to parallel Vampire films and Vampire literature. There is substantial coverage, at least, in the independent source, Keith Ammann, The Monsters Know What They're Doing: Combat Tactics for Dungeon Masters (Simon & Schuster, 2019), p. 294–303. There is an entire CBR article on one specific D&D vampire, with a meta-commentary on D&D vampires generally ("It didn't make sense to him why a creature like a vampire was just sitting around in a random dungeon with oozes, goblins, and zombies. So he and his wife set out to create a vampire villain with fleshed-out motivations and history"), and mentions in other pieces too numerous to list. BD2412 T 01:47, 22 March 2020 (UTC) Light Merge andRedirect toVampire#GamesVampires in games- The current article is comprised entirely of in-universe game information, with nearly all citations being game books. The few non-game books being used are extremely trivial mentions. As far as the two sources mentioned by BD2412 above, The Monsters Know What They're Doing is simply a game guide, and the coverage of vampires within is just an explanation of the rules involving them. There is no actual coverage of the creature outside of pure in-game terms that would establish notability. As for the lengthy article on the one, specific D&D vampire, he actually already has an independent article that would be far more appropriate to cover the information from that article. There are plenty of trivial mentions of the D&D versions of vampires in various sources, but nothing that actually establishes any kind of real-world notability. There is enough that a brief discussion in the appropriate section of the main article on Vampires in games would probably be warranted, however. Rorshacma ( talk) 02:36, 22 March 2020 (UTC)- Please direct me to the section of Wikipedia:Reliable sources that distinguishes third party publications for being "simply a game guide". Otherwise, the source is as satisfactory for the WP:GNG as any other book in print. I should also add, I disagree with the assessment of this source as merely explaining the rules involved. The entire premise of this book is that the rules provided by the game do not provide sufficient guidance for the psychology of how the identified creatures should behave from a tactical standpoint. BD2412 T 03:26, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep or merge to Vampire per above comments since there are WP:RS to retain, per WP:PRESERVE and WP:ATD. BOZ ( talk) 04:10, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete and Redirect to Vampire#Games.This is game guide information only. There is no notability for this subject outside of the game. Fails WP:GNG. -- Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 08:42, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Vampires in games, the secondary sources provided either contribute notability onto a specific character instead of D&D vampires in general, or merely provide rules and tactical information that fails WP:GAMEGUIDE. A mention of the fact that Vampires exist in Dungeons and Dragons has been added to the main Vampire article, and this article can provide nothing else that should be merged. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 12:16, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect - I'm unconvinced anything really needs to be retained. For items not unique to D&D, they do not need that much weight, certainly not the whole article just restructured into something else. If anything at all, one or two sentences is sufficient for items that do not have major cultural impact. TTN ( talk) 17:59, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep or merge: There is treatment in several secondary sources as already discussed. For all disagreement about the weight of certain sources, all criticism saying there is not even anything to merge has ignored the creative origin presented in the solid secondary sources The Ashgate Encyclopedia of Literary and Cinematic Monsters. Daranios ( talk) 21:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: since we seem to have a complete failure of imagination with respect to the topic of vampires in games generally, I have gone ahead and created Vampires in games, which is instantly a much better merge topic than the main Vampire article. You're welcome. BD2412 T 22:23, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- Merge for now to Vampires in games. That is way better than creating articles on individual game manifestation. Whether it is worth having as a seperate article can be discussed in other contexts. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 15:17, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. Extensive discussion in Vampires: The Myths, Legends, and Lore. This reveals that they are a small part of the wider topic of vampires in fiction and in roleplaying games (there's lots of scholarly and popular literature on vampires, so that's not surprising). They're also an important part of the Ravenloft campaign setting, so no doubt people with access to the various magazines that will have talked about Ravenloft will be able to find more sources. Lots of modules focus on vampires (e.g., Palace of the Vampire Queen, Curse of Strahd, Ravenloft) and there are D&D novels focusing on Vampires, so reviews of these works will no doubt be valuable sources. Josh Milburn ( talk) 15:31, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
--it seems possible and perhaps even probable that this topic could be an appropriate topic for an encyclopedia. However, such an article would not resemble this article in the slightest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.220.13.88 ( talk) 22:28, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.