- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. While this should not be taken as a referendum on other tennis players, OSE and if it shouldn't,AfD is available. Star Mississippi 01:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Valentin Royer
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- Valentin Royer ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable tennis player who fails to meet WP:GNG and WP:NTENNIS. Can't find any sources that involve more than just a passing mention or his one successful tournament in Tunisia, which isn't enough to meet notability requirements. Adamtt9 ( talk) 18:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Tennis, and France. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I’ve added French-language sources that mention him more than just in passing, as well as his finals/titles on the World Tennis Tour. He’s ranked in the top 200 and just passed the first round of qualifying at Roland Garros today.
Mellamelina (
talk) 19:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to note that a lot of the references that have been added are again still just passing mentions of Royer and run-of-the-mill mentions of his tournament results. They don't go into any actual depth.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 00:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see that you created the page for
Francesco Forti, and I'm confused by why Francesco Forti is seemingly more notable than Royer? Forti's page only has one reference, and it's just his ATP profile, so it seems a bit ridiculous to me that you're dying on this hill. The first five sources on Royer's article alone go into depth about him. And yes, a lot of the other sources are his tournament results because they're included in a section summarizing his professional career, which is hardly where you'd look for a huge thinkpiece about him.
Mellamelina (
talk) 00:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Also, re: Bogdan Bobrov, a player with 7 ITF titles and a career-high ranking of 361. You created this article and only cited his ATP profile, so I'm really not understanding how you're taking issue with Royer, who has the same amount of titles and a career-high ranking of 200, well above Bobrov's 361. Mellamelina ( talk) 01:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see that you created the page for
Francesco Forti, and I'm confused by why Francesco Forti is seemingly more notable than Royer? Forti's page only has one reference, and it's just his ATP profile, so it seems a bit ridiculous to me that you're dying on this hill. The first five sources on Royer's article alone go into depth about him. And yes, a lot of the other sources are his tournament results because they're included in a section summarizing his professional career, which is hardly where you'd look for a huge thinkpiece about him.
Mellamelina (
talk) 00:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to note that a lot of the references that have been added are again still just passing mentions of Royer and run-of-the-mill mentions of his tournament results. They don't go into any actual depth.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 00:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Delete as not notable for anything tennis related. But Mellameline has a good point @
Adamtt9:. You created Bogdan Bobrov and that player looks per the page to be even less worthy.
Fyunck(click) (
talk) 07:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mean to dogpile on @
Adamtt9, but this AfD is absurd to me. Here are the non-notable tennis articles they've created this year alone. All of these are minimally sourced.
- Zhou Yi (tennis), career-high ranking of 258, 0 ITF singles titles
- Sebastian Fanselow, career-high ranking of 273, 5 ITF singles titles
- Roy Stepanov, career-high ranking of 324, 0 ITF singles titles
- Damien Wenger, career-high ranking of 363, 12 ITF singles titles
- Alejo Lorenzo Lingua Lavallén, career-high ranking of 400, 1 Challenger singles title
- Luís Britto, career-high ranking of 1098, 0 ITF singles titles
- David Jordà Sanchis, career-high ranking of 292, 0 ITF singles titles
- Tristan Boyer, career-high ranking of 193, 1 Challenger singles title
- Rémy Bertola, career-high ranking of 309, 3 ITF singles titles
- Michael Agwi, career-high ranking of 597, 3 ITF singles titles
- Mark Wallner, career-high ranking of 1095, 0 ITF singles titles
- Jakob Schnaitter, career-high ranking of 400, 1 Challenger singles title
- George Goldhoff, career-high ranking of 686, 1 ITF singles titles
- So if we're really trying to cull tennis articles, why don't we start there, rather than the article of someone who just made a Challenger final and
passed to the second round of qualifying at a Grand Slam?
Mellamelina (
talk) 10:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Minimally sourced doesn't equate non-notable.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 11:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- So can you tell me what makes each of those players more notable than Royer? Since I don’t have any sources to refer to.
Mellamelina (
talk) 11:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Might I remind you that this all arose from you claiming that you couldn’t find any sources on Royer, and yet you don’t seem to have any firm ground to stand on in your own articles. To me, it seems like you did one simple English-language search on Royer and jumped to conclusions when you couldn’t find anything within the first 10 seconds of searching.
Mellamelina (
talk) 11:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Mate I did enough of a search to not find any sources that went into depth, only passing mentions. I went through some French sources, but as I don't speak French, it was slightly difficult to figure out if they were enough to determine notability. So I sent it to AFD. You went and improved the article, so if other people agree with you that these sources are good and
WP:GNG is met, then the article will be kept and no harm is done. I'm not sure why you're being so aggressive.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 11:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I’m being “aggressive” because it’s laughable that you’re talking about the state of my sources given the state of the sources on your articles. Don’t you understand that you’re throwing stones from a glass house and it seems a bit hypocritical?
Mellamelina (
talk) 11:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I’ve done some research on the players I mentioned above that you deem notable enough for their own article, and I’m failing see how most of those, apart from one or two, could be considered more notable than Royer. None of them have even made the qualifying draw of a slam. The fact that you would put a “non-notable” AfD on this article and yet deem those players notable enough for their own articles is again, laughable. When this is over, you should definitely do a deep dive on your own work and consider whether, by your standards, they warrant an article due to notability and sources cited.
Mellamelina (
talk) 12:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just wondering, have you looked at
our guidelines on notability? For tennis related notability a player can 100 ITF events and gain nothing. Those events are filled with children and college players and are the lowest rung of making money. The Challenger level (minor leagues), making a final doesn't cut it either. You have to win a Challenger level event to warrant tennis notability at Wikipedia. Now a person may garner notability in other ways by having magazine articles or newspaper columns specifically about them. Our articles must include these facts to show notability. If you are ranked high enough to make the main draw of the WTA or ATP main tours you also gain notability, so that it is extremely likely that you'd find a good source or two. Obviously there can be an obscure case or two, but the best thing is to look at our guidelines and if a player doesn't pass that minimal litmus test, they shouldn't have an article.
Fyunck(click) (
talk) 19:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- So why exactly aren't these standards being applied evenly across articles? How does a player like Bogdan Bobrov with zero ATP main draw appearances and zero Challenger titles warrant his own article?
Mellamelina (
talk) 20:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- My bad, he has a Challenger doubles title.
Mellamelina (
talk) 20:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- And that's the difference... a minor league Challenger title whether its singles or doubles. When the guidelines gained consensus way back when, doubles and singles events were treated exactly the same. Doubles notability has fallen drastically every decade for 50 years to the point that maybe it should be re-looked at... perhaps needing a QF on the main tour to get the quick article creation. But until that happens it's the consensus we go by. There will always be borderline players and you always have to show that general notability.
Fyunck(click) (
talk) 21:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree on this point. There are many players who technically meet the
WP:NTENNIS requirements of playing in an ATP tour level match in doubles by receiving a wildcard. Even in Masters 1000 tournaments like
Jacopo Bilardo and
Giorgio Ricca in the
Rome Masters just weeks ago. But they are still red links and an article shouldn't be created, because other than that one appearance where they lost comfortably, sourcing is not going to demonstrate an ounce of notability. So both
WP:NTENNIS and
WP:GNG should be looked at to determine whether a player meets guidelines or not.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 21:22, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, that’s fair. Mellamelina ( talk) 21:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree on this point. There are many players who technically meet the
WP:NTENNIS requirements of playing in an ATP tour level match in doubles by receiving a wildcard. Even in Masters 1000 tournaments like
Jacopo Bilardo and
Giorgio Ricca in the
Rome Masters just weeks ago. But they are still red links and an article shouldn't be created, because other than that one appearance where they lost comfortably, sourcing is not going to demonstrate an ounce of notability. So both
WP:NTENNIS and
WP:GNG should be looked at to determine whether a player meets guidelines or not.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 21:22, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- And that's the difference... a minor league Challenger title whether its singles or doubles. When the guidelines gained consensus way back when, doubles and singles events were treated exactly the same. Doubles notability has fallen drastically every decade for 50 years to the point that maybe it should be re-looked at... perhaps needing a QF on the main tour to get the quick article creation. But until that happens it's the consensus we go by. There will always be borderline players and you always have to show that general notability.
Fyunck(click) (
talk) 21:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- My bad, he has a Challenger doubles title.
Mellamelina (
talk) 20:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- So why exactly aren't these standards being applied evenly across articles? How does a player like Bogdan Bobrov with zero ATP main draw appearances and zero Challenger titles warrant his own article?
Mellamelina (
talk) 20:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just wondering, have you looked at
our guidelines on notability? For tennis related notability a player can 100 ITF events and gain nothing. Those events are filled with children and college players and are the lowest rung of making money. The Challenger level (minor leagues), making a final doesn't cut it either. You have to win a Challenger level event to warrant tennis notability at Wikipedia. Now a person may garner notability in other ways by having magazine articles or newspaper columns specifically about them. Our articles must include these facts to show notability. If you are ranked high enough to make the main draw of the WTA or ATP main tours you also gain notability, so that it is extremely likely that you'd find a good source or two. Obviously there can be an obscure case or two, but the best thing is to look at our guidelines and if a player doesn't pass that minimal litmus test, they shouldn't have an article.
Fyunck(click) (
talk) 19:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I’ve done some research on the players I mentioned above that you deem notable enough for their own article, and I’m failing see how most of those, apart from one or two, could be considered more notable than Royer. None of them have even made the qualifying draw of a slam. The fact that you would put a “non-notable” AfD on this article and yet deem those players notable enough for their own articles is again, laughable. When this is over, you should definitely do a deep dive on your own work and consider whether, by your standards, they warrant an article due to notability and sources cited.
Mellamelina (
talk) 12:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I’m being “aggressive” because it’s laughable that you’re talking about the state of my sources given the state of the sources on your articles. Don’t you understand that you’re throwing stones from a glass house and it seems a bit hypocritical?
Mellamelina (
talk) 11:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Mate I did enough of a search to not find any sources that went into depth, only passing mentions. I went through some French sources, but as I don't speak French, it was slightly difficult to figure out if they were enough to determine notability. So I sent it to AFD. You went and improved the article, so if other people agree with you that these sources are good and
WP:GNG is met, then the article will be kept and no harm is done. I'm not sure why you're being so aggressive.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 11:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Might I remind you that this all arose from you claiming that you couldn’t find any sources on Royer, and yet you don’t seem to have any firm ground to stand on in your own articles. To me, it seems like you did one simple English-language search on Royer and jumped to conclusions when you couldn’t find anything within the first 10 seconds of searching.
Mellamelina (
talk) 11:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- So can you tell me what makes each of those players more notable than Royer? Since I don’t have any sources to refer to.
Mellamelina (
talk) 11:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Minimally sourced doesn't equate non-notable.
Adamtt9 (
talk) 11:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, only GNG should be used to determine notability, as NSPORT requires GNG to be met. Winning particular titles is completely irrelevant if you haven't cited SIGCOV sources in the article. Further, to qualify towards GNG, the coverage must be of the subject's career as an adult. JoelleJay ( talk) 23:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- But tennis guidelines help determine whether an editor should start creating a draft article knowing the likelihood of GNG will be met by outside sources in English or otherwise. And then consensus will determine whether GNG has been met. What do you mean by an adult? There are countless thousands of articles of people under the age of 18 who meet GNG. What does age have to do with notability?
Fyunck(click) (
talk) 23:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per YOUNGATH, sources, especially local ones and anything interview-based, on a subject's junior achievements do not qualify as IRS SIGCOV.
JoelleJay (
talk) 23:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- But that doesn't mean you get no GNG as a youth. We have be more careful. You don't use a high school paper that says their quarterback is special. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 00:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per YOUNGATH, sources, especially local ones and anything interview-based, on a subject's junior achievements do not qualify as IRS SIGCOV.
JoelleJay (
talk) 23:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- But tennis guidelines help determine whether an editor should start creating a draft article knowing the likelihood of GNG will be met by outside sources in English or otherwise. And then consensus will determine whether GNG has been met. What do you mean by an adult? There are countless thousands of articles of people under the age of 18 who meet GNG. What does age have to do with notability?
Fyunck(click) (
talk) 23:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mean to dogpile on @
Adamtt9, but this AfD is absurd to me. Here are the non-notable tennis articles they've created this year alone. All of these are minimally sourced.
- Delete. Looking at the first 10 sources, I am not seeing enough IRS SIGCOV to meet GNG. Ping me with the three most significant pieces not listed here and I might reconsider.
Source 1, 7 (Ouest-France 1, 5): interview as a child w/ trivial indy coverage, fails YOUNGATH and SIGCOV/INDY
.
2,
4,
6 (O-F 2, 3, 4): interview with some independent sentences, but still coverage of his juniors career and not enough to be SIGCOV .
3 Dicodusport: Blog piece in first-person .
5 Le Telegramme: Interview with very little independent content .
8 (O-F 6): almost zero independent content .
9 Tennis Actu: routine match report .
10 Tennis Plaza: routine match report.
JoelleJay (
talk) 23:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.