- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep as renamed and improved. Further improvements to the article, removal of unsourced material, and a potential merge, are beyond the scope of this discussion. BD2412 T 06:57, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Ulucami
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The Ulucami article is currently unsourced. The changes that I proposed to scope the article to ulucami = building style, and the sources that I provided were rejected by R Prazeres , See Talk:Congregational mosque#Merger proposal. R Prazeres reverted my edits to Ulucami. In looking for sources, I was unable to find support for the current scope of the article. What I did find I tried to summarize in those edits that appear here. I was unable to convince anyone at Talk:Congregational mosque#Merger proposal of this narrower scope. However, I do believe that it is proper to have a discussion about whether to delete this article with no redirect or to redirect it to Congregational mosque. My own view after having tried to source the article, is that the two terms are not identical, nor is the usage of "grand mosque" identical with "ulucami", although it is used as a translation of the term. The relative lack of sources would suggest to me deletion. The current article is basically a translation of the unsourced article in the Turkish Wikipedia. entitled "Ulu cami" here. If nothing else, the grand mosque of a city is distinguished from other congregational mosques. The articles that I found in Google Scholar were almost entirely in Turkish. One exception was P. Hasan's "Sultanate mosques and continuity in Bengal architecture", which I cited (see above) for the definition of building type. I should also note that ulucami is used as a neighbourhood term. In summary there are not enough reliable sources, much less ones providing in-depth discussion, to support this article. A redirect would be incorrectly conflating terms. -- Bejnar ( talk) 23:12, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: Notice of this discussion has been included on the WikiProject Islam/Mosques task force talkpage. -- Bejnar ( talk) 23:39, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. -- Bejnar ( talk) 23:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. -- Bejnar ( talk) 23:47, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. -- Bejnar ( talk) 23:51, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: My attention has been called to Gür, Şengül Öymen; Durmuş, Serap . (2012). "Deconstruction as a mechanism of creativity and its reflections on Islamic architecture" (PDF). Architectoni. 1 (1): 32–45. where it says "Some innovative advances made through the ages include such types as the Court-Cloister (Revaklı), the Ulucami (flat or single hinged roofs with arbitrary small domes or no domes), the Single-domed, the Multi-domed, the 19th and the early 20th Century Eclectic (single domes), the Modern (regular and irregular plans), and the Postmodern-Eclectic (Table 1)." -- Bejnar ( talk) 00:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Keep Update: I support keeping the page in its currently renamed form. Thanks,
R Prazeres (
talk) 19:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
(Withdrawing my support, see my response further below: if not merger, DAB is better than deletion.)
R Prazeres (
talk) 04:43, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Support. While I disagree with Bejnar's interpretation of the term (as per talk discussion already linked in nom), I support the deletion proposal, as it would solve the underlying problem either way. The whole motivation for merging this article is that it duplicates the scope of
Congregational mosque (which is a scholarly term equivalent to "great mosque", "Friday mosque", etc; see sources on that page) by using a non-English term. Since we don't particularly need a redirect for every non-English name for a topic, deletion seems as valid a solution as merging. Even if something like "Ulucami" could be redefined as a new architectural topic with a very different scope (I disagree), it would require a different name anyways (preferably an
English one) to distinguish it from being merely the Turkish translation of "great/grand mosque". Thanks Bejnar for proposing this alternate solution. If the deletion proceeds, the merger I proposed will be moot and that discussion can (I assume) be closed then.
R Prazeres (
talk) 01:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: I don't think we should start another debate here parallel with the one that already took place in the merger discussion, but I'll make the additional note that multi-dome Ottoman mosques and other building types and sub-types are already discussed at Early Ottoman architecture (and in shortened form at Ottoman architecture), Seljuk-era mosque architecture is discussed at Seljuk architecture, and so on. In my view that's how it should be. There are many architectural subtypes of mosques in most regions and periods of the Islamic world, it would be impractical and messy to start splitting off new pages for each and every subtype, unless one of those types is sufficiently important and complex enough that it can't be covered adequately in the relevant overview article. As per WP:CONTENTSPLIT, this type of splitting should be considered carefully, rather than occurring by default. That's consistent with the way most architectural traditions are treated on Wikipedia so far and in other published encyclopedias. R Prazeres ( talk) 02:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Do not simply delete. The term "Ulu Cami" or "Ulucami" is used frequently in reliable sources to refer to Grand Mosque of Bursa. There are some other mosques that are also called by this name ( Ulu Cami, Adana, Ulu Cami (Birgi) etc). So even if we don't think ulucami is a notable topic, it should at least become a disambiguation page. VR talk 21:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- That's not a bad idea, I might withdraw my earlier support for that reason. There is already a list page where these mosques should be included (with a header link at Congregational mosque), but even a DAB can include a link to congregational mosque anyways, which is better than nothing and still resolves the original problem.
- However, we now have three different proposals across two different discussions. It might be better to propose this back at the merger discussion and I'd be happy to maybe modify the original proposal text so that editors can choose to vote for either a merge or a DAB (which I think is ok procedurally..?). R Prazeres ( talk) 04:04, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: Instead of just deleting this article how about we merge it into a separate article like already suggested on the page. But I do see your point in sourcing. SoyokoAnis - talk 04:06, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - this is a valid list of Turkish grand mosques
, though it should be renamed as such.Iskandar323 ( talk) 10:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC)- I've sort of gone on ahead and made the page into the list-format article that it always should have been. Once this discussion is closed, the page for
Ulucami (which is now a redirect) can be freely redirected to
Congregational Mosque.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 16:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- @ Bejnar: Do you still object to this page as a list with the beginnings of some sourcing? Looking around Wikipedia on the paucity of data on grand mosques, it seems rather like this material needs expanding, not contracting. There is no reason why the goal for the likes of List of congregational mosques shouldn't be something more like the comprehensive Lists of cathedrals. Iskandar323 ( talk) 17:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- I've sort of gone on ahead and made the page into the list-format article that it always should have been. Once this discussion is closed, the page for
Ulucami (which is now a redirect) can be freely redirected to
Congregational Mosque.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 16:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: Why is this in AFD? shouldn't it be a RFC instead? MartinWilder ( talk) 03:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Perfectly encyclopaedic list, especially as now renamed. Most of these buildings are notable in their own right. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:37, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting for further discussion however, this might be better for a Request for Comment.
AfD is not a place for reviewing sourcing problems. This is a place to delete or keep articles based on notability, etc.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Missvain (
talk) 18:40, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - This article has been renamed List of Turkish Grand Mosques. Missvain ( talk) 18:40, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Meets notability criteria in renamed form, good list article. Massive thanks to whoever did the rename Eggventura ( talk) 20:12, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment my only objections are (1) to the lead in the new article which is not true, and is not supported, and (2) that some of the mosques listed are not neither ulu cami or "grand mosques", for example Zagan Pasha Mosque is an historic mosque, and the biggest mosque in Balıkesir. But the reference cited while it talks lots about the mosque, it does not call it in Turkish either "ulu cami" or "ulucami". But those questions belong on its talk page. -- Bejnar ( talk) 02:42, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see any obvious problem with the lead for the page's current list form. The simpler, the better. As it is, the scope of the list currently includes all (major?) congregational mosques; certainly that is what is implied by citing this source in the lead, which explicitly equates "grand mosque" (ulucami) with "Friday mosque" (cuma camii), a.k.a. congregational mosque. That may still raise questions about the list being expanded (e.g. where are all the congregational mosques in Istanbul?) or about whether this scope is broader than what is desired. But I'd suggest that those issues should probably be discussed, if necessary, on the list's talk page, as this discussion should focus on whether to keep or delete the page. R Prazeres ( talk) 04:09, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- PS: I'll also note that the same cited source, after a description of the topic of "Ulucami", continues with a series of entries about Turkish mosques known as "Ulucami", and among these the Zagan Pasha Mosque is included, listed as "Balıkesir Ulucamii" which redirects to "Zağanos Paşa Külliyesi"; hence its inclusion is justified either way, along with others that may have different names but are considered grand mosques. R Prazeres ( talk) 04:30, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - there are definitely some ambiguous entries that need to be clarified with further research. The Turkish framework for labelling a mosque an 'Ulucami" appears itself to be somewhat flexible and not entirely consistent. However, it is also clearly a title that is expressly used for not just major, but principle mosques, much like the word cathedral, which similarly has a different nuance to simply "large, congregational church". I am personally giving the entries that are unclear or are unsourced the benefit of the doubt, pending further work. Zagan Pasha Mosque in an interesting example in that it is clearly the largest and most prominent mosque in Balikesir, so prime "Ulucami" material, but does not appear to have been formally given the "Ulucami" title. There could be any number of reasons for this being case, including the simple fact that it was so obvious that nobody bothered with a formal renaming. As @ R Prazeres notes, it is listed in Islam Ansiklopedisi (a rather invaluable tertiary source) under Ulucami [1], Iskandar323 ( talk) 07:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.