The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Third Perso-Turkic War. If you would prefer a different redirect targets, such as Chorpan Tarkhan, please either start a discussion on the article talk page or take it to WP:RFD. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC) reply

Turkic invasion of Armenia (628)

Turkic invasion of Armenia (628) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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I am nominating this for deletion as highly dubious and unlikely to be accurate. The first warning sign is the “general” reference provided. This is a Google books link to some kind of treatise on musical theory. The creating editor ran a Google search and dumped whatever came up into the article apparently without noticing that what they’d found was completely unrelated to the article topic. That tells me something about regard for sources. Other than that we have a bunch of offline sources (1-5 are the same work). Lastly all the sources I can find date the invasion of Armenia to 630, not 628. Indeed we already have a longstanding article, Chorpan Tarkhan, that covers all this material, that gives the date as 630. I think this article should be deleted as unreliable, or at best redirected to Chorpan Tarkhan as an alternative to deletion. Mccapra ( talk) 04:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military, Armenia, Georgia (country), and Turkey. Mccapra ( talk) 04:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC) reply
• Delete Redirect (see below). Agreed that the cited sources are essentially useless without ISBNs or links (who knows what translation, printing, etc is being used here). The History of the Caucasian Albanians is also a tenth century text; though there are current translations I'm finding it extremely hard to find a copy. The best I've got is a text dump on archive.org ( [1]) and it references the year 628 only eight times, none of which provide it as the date for the invasion of Armenia; the closest states this:

'In the 38th year of Xosrov', i.e. 628, the Khazars sack Partaw and besiege Tiflis; at the approach of the Persian army Heraclius tells the Khazars to withdraw and to return the following year, i.e. 629

Meanwhile, the info on Chorpan Tarkhan is also uncited, though there are two general references. I was able to find Khazaria in the Ninth and Tenth Centuries ( ISBN  9789004294486), which references 630 on page 61 ( [2]). I also can't find any sources which cover the size of the relative forces or really any details at all. I'm not sure this is enough evidence to convince me the information in the article is definitely false, but it's far from enough to convince me it's accurate, and the general lack of information makes me question notability. Dylnuge ^{( Talk • Edits)} 05:23, 14 October 2022 (UTC) reply

I should add though that the years alone aren't that suspicious to me. It's not unlikely for different sources to give different years and for the exact timeframe for something like this to be vague. The Sasanian calendar used at that time differs pretty heavily from modern ones, and it's not unreasonable different scholars would interpret things like "the 38th year of Xosrov" as referring to slightly different years. And weirdly, that music theory text comes up fourth searching Google Books for "Chorpan Tarkhan;" that might just be an attempt by the editor to include an online source if their sources are purely offline. Dylnuge ^{( Talk • Edits)} 05:28, 14 October 2022 (UTC) reply

Per Srnec below, changing to Redirect to Third Perso-Turkic War. None of my rationale has changed, and the battle itself seems to lack notability, but it seems reliable that it happened and is a part of the war in question. Dylnuge ^{( Talk • Edits)} 17:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC) reply

Since the year is in question, maybe rename to Turkic invasion of Armenia and redirect? We don't have any other pages with that name, so disambiguating by year isn't necessary in the first place. Dylnuge ^{( Talk • Edits)} 20:42, 15 October 2022 (UTC) reply

• I will preface this with a (true) claim to utter ignorance on this topic. I don't really know what I'm looking at. That said, there seem to be sources that support the position in the article as it stands. This one seems to tell a similar story albeit dating to 627. I have also found a master's thesis which appears to point to this source (which frustratingly I can't look inside) D. Christian, A History of Russia, Central Asia andMongolia: Inner Eurasia from Prehistory to the Mongol Empire, Vol.Α. the sourcing is thin but it might be a thing, particularly in Armenia/Armenian where maybe the history of the period looks different to those who focus elsewhere. I think I'm going to reserve judgment until someone with better knowledge and historical skills than me chimes in. JMWt ( talk) 07:37, 14 October 2022 (UTC) reply
• Delete One of a number of highly problematic pages that follow the same MO - terrible referencing/sourcing that is as obfuscatory as possible, SYNTH/OR to create 'battles' that are, as the nominator says, deeply dubious. This example here - also currently at AfD is typical. Personally I'd nuke the lot until an editor can come along and create properly sourced, verifiable articles on historical events that actually existed and upon which respected historians have conferred the title 'battle'. Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC) reply
• Delete, in line with the arguments put forward above by Dylnuge. The nominator's concern regarding the year is of secondary importance here, we can treat this as a general discussion of notability regarding this invasion, regardless of the exact year. I had a look around for both English and Turkish-language sources, and indeed, there is nothing more regarding this conflict than passing mentions in reputable sources, and as such I don't believe the topic clears WP:GNG. -- GGT ( talk) 11:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC) reply
• Redirect to Third Perso-Turkic War. The History of the Caucasian Albanians—no text dump!—is available here. – Srnec ( talk) 02:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC) reply

  Great find! Briefly looking at the area near-ish the cited pages I'm finding a reference to this battle but nothing about the size of the forces in absolute numbers, so suspect that's unsupported by citation. Still seems to lack notability for its own page, but I support a redirect as a good alternative to outright deleting. Changing my !vote. Dylnuge ^{( Talk • Edits)} 17:51, 15 October 2022 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.