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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. and Moving to Killing of Samantha Woll. I realize that this is a judgment call but this is how I read the rough consensus of this discussion. As time passes (and I mean months and years from now, not days or a week), it might be worth reevaluating this article to see if coverage is sustained. Liz Read! Talk! 01:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Samantha Woll

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Samantha Woll (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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A non-notable person who was murdered, and her murder is being reported against the backdrop of a current conflict. Textbook example of WP:BLP1E, and her article should be redirected to that of her synagogue. Step hen 22:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Judaism, and Michigan. Step hen 22:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:26, 22 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep fails mandatory criteria 2 of WP:BLP1E in that she was not a low profile individual. Woll was co-chair of the American Jewish Committee's ACCESS Detroit Young Leadership Program and founder of the Muslim-Jewish Forum of Detroit. In 2017 she was selected by the Detroit Jewish News as one of their "36 under 36". From 2019 to 2021, she worked as deputy district director on the political campaign of Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin. She also worked on the re-election campaign of Attorney General Dana Nessel. that's not low profile. I think BLP1E is more to prevent victimization of people who are just average everyday low profile people. —DIYeditor ( talk) 22:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    The "American Jewish Committee's ACCESS Detroit Young Leadership Program and founder of the Muslim-Jewish Forum of Detroit" MIGHT get you an article, working on various election campaign's doesn't. Oaktree b ( talk) 23:26, 22 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    • Comment: Anything regarding a Program run by AJC is ZERO notability on its own. Ditto regarding the Muslim-Jewish Forum of Detroit. So, not even a "might". 2607:F470:E:22:F00C:616:C1E6:62E7 ( talk) 17:50, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Merge with Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue: President of a synagogue is basically an office job; they wouldn't get an article had they not died. Notability is only in context of the place of worship. Oaktree b ( talk) 23:28, 22 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep or Move to "Killing of Samantha Woll". The killing is what is really notable here. The individual would likely not have merited a Wikipedia page prior to their murder. Loksmythe ( talk) 17:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    Comment I would agree that if there is not sufficient consensus to keep the article, the incident of her death is clearly notable. Panther999 ( talk) 15:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Merge with Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue. Coverage has been insignificant after the fact, aside from to say the police have found no evidence of it being a result of a hate crime. [1] Nonovix ( talk) 13:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep in some manner. Durindaljb ( talk) 02:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep or Merge to Killing of. There's continued national and international reporting about her killing, beyond initial expositionary reporting, that suggests her killing meets WP:GNG: [1] [2] [3]. Longhornsg ( talk) 00:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ Tareen, Sophia. "Police find no evidence of a hate crime in murder of Detroit synagogue leader". PBS News Hour. PBS. Retrieved 23 October 2023.
  • Merge to Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue. I hate to say "routine crime", but now that the killing has found not to be terrorism or a hate crime, it isn't notable enough for a stand-alone article. There is certainly material that could be usefully inserted at the synagogue article, though. Black Kite (talk) 06:50, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
Comment. I don't think the killing's been "found not to be terrorism or a hate crime". As I read the reports, police just don't know. Dsp13 ( talk) 09:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
What dsp13 ( talk · contribs) said. The investigation is still active, and DPD says to expect an update today. 68.42.97.120 ( talk) 13:32, 23 October 2023 (UTC) (oops, forgot to log in) -- Alison (Crazytales) ( talk;  edits) 13:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete unless at some later date proved connected to some other notable then revive. As of right now sounds just like any other unnotable memorial. 2600:8800:FF0E:300:F91F:EEA6:4E6C:2A7B ( talk) 08:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Not a low profile individual. Woll was co-chair of the American Jewish Committee's ACCESS Detroit Young Leadership Program and founder of the Muslim-Jewish Forum of Detroit. In 2017 she was selected by the Detroit Jewish News as one of their "36 under 36". Yamfri ( talk) 14:18, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Not notable. Her death is mentioned at Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue#History and that is sufficient. Wylie pedia @ 14:58, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep This woman's death has been the lead story in Southeast Michigan and the Michigan Attorney general was commenting on it before the cause of death was publicly available. That, alone, doesn't establish notability but articles about her from reliable secondary sources may come out in the near future, as the story develops. At such point she would likely meet GNG. While this happened against the backdrop of an ongoing conflict, the police have indicated that they have no evidence that the murder is was motivated by her religious or political activities. If a redirect is in order, it should point toward an article on the incident, since the incident is certainly receiving significant coverage from reliable secondary sources.-- Panther999 ( talk) 15:19, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
WP:NOTFORUM/ WP:SOAP. Please stick to how this article is or isn’t necessary on WP policy grounds. The Kip 17:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Keep The murderous attack on this woman is likely part of the ongoing surge of attacks on Jews, by Muslims, that began during the start of the Biden (Democratic Party) presidency (an example of "liberal" racism and extremism). It is also relevant in the backdrop of the biggest mass murder of people by Islamic terrorists (on previous victims of mass murders, Jewish people, in this case) since the murderous Islamic terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001. Commenter856 ( talk) 16:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC) — Commenter856 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
  • Keep or Merge per above. Borderline notability in life, certainly notable in death and comparable to the Killing of Wadea Al-Fayoume. I can see arguments for both, and I personally slightly lean keep, but the bottom line is that deletion would be the wrong move. The Kip 17:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    The killing of Al-Fayoume is a hate crime. Detroit police (so far) are saying there is no evidence that the killing of Woll was a hate crime. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 01:18, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Move to "Killing of" or Delete. Very clear violation of BLP1E. It is possible an article about Woll's death could clear on notability, though I would lean delete at this point given the lack of coverage thereof within the article. DarkSide830 ( talk) 19:25, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep & then move to Killing of Samantha Woll. Even if she probably wouldn't pass WP:GNG prior to her death, she is notable for her death. Nonetheless, given that she had a very weak claim to notability prior to her death, keeping the article separate (as a WP:1E) and having a short bio on her in said article (as is done for many others) is the best solution here. estar8806 ( talk) ★ 00:02, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Case of BIO1E that no longer meets notability for own article following the official investigation, and subject's death is duly covered in the Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue article. sixtynine • whaddya want? • 00:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Merge to the synagogue article, I'm not seeing notability at this point. Oaktree b ( talk) 00:47, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ Oaktree b: looks like you've voted twice Longhornsg ( talk) 16:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    Oops, I'll strike one. Oaktree b ( talk) 16:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete as failing WP:BLP1E/ WP:BIO1E and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. She was not notable for her life prior to her death and while her killing has gotten coverage, it does not demonstrate WP:LASTING notability at this point. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 01:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    • Muboshgu, I disagree. Her killing got an international coverage because she was notable; an average Joan Doe would not be mentioned by Independent, BBC, Aljazeera, The Guardian, Daily Beast, Daily Mail and all U.S. national media. To have been a Jewish community leader and at the same time be called "a friend" by Israel hater Rashida Tlaib - that in itself is notable. Yamfri ( talk) 03:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC) reply
      It was heavily covered only because it was initially believed to be a hate crime, which we now know was not the case. sixtynine • whaddya want? • 03:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC) reply
      Strongly disagree that two people who worked in politics together in the same US state for the same party being friends tells us anything about notability. Innisfree987 ( talk) 04:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Merge to synagogue article. Police are now saying they believe it likely wasn’t a hate crime [4]. This makes it less likely to meet the threshold of notability. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:2B9A ( talk) 04:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue per WP:NOTMEMORIAL. I tried to find coverage prior to her death to help expand this article and establish notability, but what’s available doesn’t meet the biography notability criteria (almost all of it being from a single local source) and tho it had seemed like the coverage of her death would merit an article about that, info seems so limited that it’s adequately covered at the page for her synagogue. If that changes, I would suggest expanding the section at the synagogue page until such point as it requires a content fork. (Meanwhile, I am not really sure why so many people have said merge as opposed to redirect, as her death is already mentioned at the target page and I’m not clear on what other content would be relevant to the entry for the synagogue.) Innisfree987 ( talk) 05:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - theres enough sourcing for a biography here, and there are sources going back a few years about the re-opening of the synagogue. Possibly retarget to an article on her killing, but between the Muslim-Jewish Forum of Detroit, leading the only free standing synagogue in Detroit, and coverage of her murder, and hopefully eventually trial of suspect, and funeral there's enough here for an article. nableezy - 16:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Merge with the synagogue article. For now, the biography is lacking quite a bit and the murder itself likely wouldn't pass the WP:10YT, but unless more information comes out about the victim, the best course of action is to merge. Luigi7255 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:41, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • This very clearly does not qualify under WP:BLP1E for reasons already explained here by others. Agree that notability here is not the most clear-cut given the sources present, but they are sufficient for me to support keeping the article. Elli ( talk | contribs) 21:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Strongly support merging with the synagogue. Everything notable outside the 1E is associated with it, and redirecting “killing of” to it would be fine. Aaron Liu ( talk) 14:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Forgive my lack of background in coding and, yes, I understand why a nomination for deletion would have followed the determination that Samantha's death was not a hate crime. I write as the former long-time religion editor of The Detroit Free Press and now Editor of ReadTheSpirit.com weekly magazine, which covers interfaith issues. Samantha's entry should be kept because: First, her story now has circled the globe. I work with the International Association of Religion Journalists and journalists in Asia and Europe have asked about Samantha. One reason to retain this profile is that people will be searching for her name for a long time. Some journalists I've spoken with in Europe and Asia were not aware that her death was not deemed a hate crime by police. Including her profile clarifies both her identity and her case. Second, she was not a minor figure. I do agree with other Wiki editors who point out that the details of her resume on their own do not seem nationally notable. However, Samantha filled those posts in a way that she became a nationally known young Jewish activist and interfaith leader. Michigan's interfaith leadership saw her, and continues to see her, as a major interfaith figure. I know this because I cover that leadership as a journalist. Also, before long, some major projects are likely to be named in memory of Samantha and having her basic bio here is crucial for letting people know who she was. Today, for example, my successor and current religion editor for the Free Press Niraj Warikoo just reported: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/10/29/samantha-woll-left-legacy-of-interfaith-work-in-michigan/71336170007/ User:DavidCrumm 29 October 2023 — Preceding undated comment added 13:46, 29 October 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 04:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC) reply

  • Keep or Merge to Killing of Samantha Woll- Per Above 😎😎PaulGamerBoy360😎😎 ( talk) 04:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - I'm having difficulty with the nom for a very simple reason. There seems to be a flaw in proposing !delete on the basis of WP:BLP1E when the subject is, tragically not a WP:LP. In all honesty, I'm sure it sounds petty but I don't think we can use policies written about "living persons" for pages about people who are self evidently no longer living. Maybe it was relevant, now it isn't. JMWt ( talk) 06:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    The policy you linked specifically says, "WP:BLP1E should be applied only to biographies of living people, or those who have recently died". Innisfree987 ( talk) 07:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC) reply
    Yes that is true, however it is part of the WP:BLP which says at the top "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."
This whole policy is about the inclusion or otherwise of contentious material about living people which sometimes applies to the recently deceased.
Nobody here is arguing that there is contentious material about this recently deceased person which we should remove - the discussion is about notability.
If we are to refocus the discussion on the notability of a person for only one event, the correct policy to discuss is WP:1E, which I think has some relevant and wise advice.
The correct approach it seem to me is a move to Killing of Samantha Woll, which is undeniably notable and in line with WP:1E JMWt ( talk) 08:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Move to "Killing of Samantha Woll." Specifically I suggest creating an article called, the "Killing of Samantha Woll," then change Samantha Woll to a Redirect. The incident has received more coverage than she did before this tragedy.-- 23mason ( talk) 14:09, 30 October 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - and Move to Killing of Samantha Woll. clearly notable per WP:GNG. Good souring. BabbaQ ( talk) 13:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Move to "Killing of Samantha Woll"; there's been sustained coverage of the killing extending beyond the local area. Jweiss11 ( talk) 03:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as I don't see a consensus right now. There is about equal numbers of editors arguing Keep, Delete, Merge to Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue and Keep and move to Killing of Samantha Woll page title.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  • Keep Coverage in reliable sources continues two weeks after her death. Her many accomplishments before her death are well-referenced, moving this out of WP:BLP1E (or recently dead) territory. Cullen328 ( talk) 10:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Per User:Cullen. Bookworm857158367 ( talk) 10:25, 6 November 2023 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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