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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Liz Read! Talk! 19:57, 10 August 2023 (UTC) reply

Raghbir Singh Pathania

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Raghbir Singh Pathania (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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The four five sources that are used here do not satisfy WP: THREE, none of them contain in-depth stuff about the subject. In fact most of the website and sources used here are unreliable, appears like blog or dubious quality websites.The article certainly fails WP:GNG. Also, the case of WP:1EVENT applies here. Admantine123 ( talk) 19:49, 3 August 2023 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military and India. Admantine123 ( talk) 19:49, 3 August 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. — Karnataka talk 20:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: WP:THREE is neither a policy or guideline, and has no criteria to satisfy; it is a helpful essay regarding sourcing, but isn't meant to be cited in a deletion rationale. Additionally, the nomination very confidently says In fact most of the website and sources used here are unreliable, appears like blog or dubious quality websites; did the nominator even look at the sources in the article before making this bold statement? Only one appears to be wholly unreliable: the Geni(dot)com source. The others are a news article by a military historian; a source from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which provides basic biographical info; the brownpundits.com blog, which while initially seeming unreliable, seems like a subject-matter expert WP:SPS, as it is written by the aforementioned milhistorian and a published mil writer; the fifth source seems to be a joint project by the United Service Institution and the Ministry of External Affairs ( [1]), and is staffed by multiple historians ( [2]); and the last is an article in the Manohar Parrikar Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses's periodical. Can the nominator clarify what is wrong with these sources? Curbon7 ( talk) 21:47, 3 August 2023 (UTC) reply
    For the record, I also am also not completely satisfied with the sources at the moment, I merely contested the notion that they were all unreliable. Curbon7 ( talk) 21:21, 4 August 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Not only does Curbon7 make found arguments against the claims for the sources being unreliable but the arguments for "1 event" are questionable at best. The sources clearly provide a more clear and in-depth biography. You also have to take into context the criteria for what determines "notability" for a military biography as many are usually known for a specific action. For example, Luigi Cadorna is mostly known for his controversial role in the Battles of the Isonzo but his article is relatively short for a military Marshal. Should his article be deleted because of that? Most Medal of Honor recipients are primarily known for just a singular notable action in a conflict that was deemed admirable enough to receive the award. Should all of their standalone articles be deleted too regardless of the quantity of outside information? Even then, the only unreliable source cited in the article (Geni), I've opted to omit and replace it with a book published by the Indus Publishing Company with even more information about his family, tracing itself to nobility which gives even more significance. I could also make the argument of notability doesn't make particularly make much sense either given the wide variety of secondary sources covering Singh Pathania but I think I've made my point. SuperSkaterDude45 ( talk) 02:14, 4 August 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, given the above comments on sourcing, the subject appears to meet WP:BASIC — siro χ o 07:04, 4 August 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - Not thrilled about the sourcing: the article from The Friday Times is long, but the notice of I am immensely grateful to Vasu Pathania for having shared with me information, anecdotes and pictures related to his late father undermines the independence at least a bit. The Brown Pundits texts looks to be a near-copy of the article from The Friday Times, and is written by the same author. The indiaww1.in website is a single paragraph of 55 words. The text from idsa.in seems to be passing mention of a single sentence. The Princely and Noble Families of the Former Indian Empire: Himachal Pradesh is the same. Commonwealth War Graves Commission is a barebones database entry. All told, the only entries here that areeven broadly useful appear to be The Friday Times and Brown Pundits, and they look a bit too similar to make me comfortable. One more good independent source would likely push me to a keep, but right now it looks rather borderline. - Ljleppan ( talk) 09:51, 4 August 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ Ljleppan: I'm not sure if the newest source I've gathered will change your vote to a keep but I did find a book that mentions Singh Pathania's significance within the 2nd Jammu and Kashmir Rifles at least two times in a book dedicated to the history of the Regiment. SuperSkaterDude45 ( talk) 02:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ SuperSkaterDude45: the way you say mentions doesn't exactly put me at ease, are these just relatively passing mentions of a sentence or two (as they appear to be based on the limited Google Books preview), or are we talking about substantive content of, say, at least a few paragraphs about him specifically? If this is the best sourcing there is, this is beginning to feel more and more like it should be merged and redirected to e.g. Battle of Jassin. Do you know if the subject has an entry in whatever is the local equivalent of Dictionary of National Biography? I'll also note that saying things like his family, tracing itself to nobility which gives even more significance is not helpful; notability is not inherited.
    @ A. B.: just making sure you noticed Curbon7's latter comment where they say they are only contesting the (un)reliability, not the (non)significance? Ljleppan ( talk) 06:18, 6 August 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ Ljleppan: Now that I've read the entire book, I can comfortably conclude that the entire section of the book is devoted towards the regiment's participation during World War I and Raghubir is mentioned more times including an entire paragraph about his participation and the legacy that impacted his family that the Google Books preview doesn't show. I've added more specific page-citations as well as fixed the current ones as the preview had the incorrect page numbers upon reading the actual book in its full contents. I should also re-iterate that that Pathania has significance given the numerous amount of secondary sources used. Finally, I should conclude that WP:NOTINHERITED has the following in its contents: This does not mean that such associations are never claims of significance (significance is a lower standard than notability, used for sections A7, A9, and A11 of the criteria for speedy deletion); it simply means that the association does not by itself make the subject notable. which is to per say, if I were to claim that Pathania was notable purely on the merits that he was a descendant of a noble family and not as a complimentary indicator for his significance as a miltary commander. SuperSkaterDude45 ( talk) 05:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Himachal Pradesh-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 07:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per the great analysis and work by Curbon7 and SuperSkaterDude45.
-- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 02:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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