- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to List of Parks and Recreation characters. Tone 13:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Marlene Griggs-Knope
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- Marlene Griggs-Knope ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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The character Marlene Griggs-Knope is a minor character, and isn't notable for its own article because of WP:GNG. Some Dude From North Carolina ( talk) 15:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 18:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 06:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Keep The nominator cites WP:GNG without explaining why he believes this article doesn't pass that guideline. The benchmark for GNG is that the subject of an article has significant coverage in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject, and this article checks all those boxes. It is well-sourced by reliable secondary sources, with coverage that goes beyond plot summary into a Development section as well. I imagine this article could be expanded further, but that's not a reason for deletion. The nominator doesn't seem to be making a policy-based argument for deletions but rather stating his own opinion that she's a "minor character" who he, in his subjective opinion, feels isn't notable. — Hunter Kahn 13:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Delete- The information presented in the article can be summarized and entered at List_of_Parks_and_Recreation_characters#Marlene_Griggs-Knope. There's no use for an article on a minor character according to WP:NCHAR and WP:BASIC. Some Dude From North Carolina ( talk) 22:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. If the best we can find for real world commentary about her are "DVD commentary notes" (this is currently the only source for the development section, which is the only non-plot summary content in the article), she clearly fails
WP:NFICTION/GNG. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 08:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- DVD commentary has long been considered an acceptable source on Wikipedia, though I'm sure that section of the article could be expanded otherwise. In any event, this vote ignores the fact that the article is otherwise sourced be reliable secondary sources, indicating it passes GNG. — Hunter Kahn 11:55, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Weak keep I get the deletion arguments, but there are reliable sources here, and it if passes GNG, it passes GNG. The rest is more subjective. Rhino131 ( talk) 12:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Keep—Meets GNG, has WP:V sources, features character overview and biography and is not re-hash of plot-only description. AldezD ( talk) 17:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Still should be deleted as it violates GNG policies and applies to WP:FAN. Articles should not be written on minor characters as they will only be looked up by specific fans of the show. Some Dude From North Carolina ( talk) 14:34, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
- "They will only be looked up by specific fans of the show" — That makes absolutely no sense and is not a valid argument for deletion. Again, you are stating your own opinion that this is a "minor character". The article is not written as fancruft. AldezD ( talk) 14:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
- The character in question appears in 10 episodes out of a possible 126, making her a minor character. The main cast of the show all have articles because they appear in most of the episodes. Why should a minor character have an article if they barely appear on the show? With your reasoning, characters like Mona-Lisa and Tammy II should also have articles, but they don't, because they're minor characters.
WP:FAN applies to this article, which violates basic GNG rules.
Some Dude From North Carolina (
talk) 17:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
- Once again though, you are applying your own subjective opinion about why she is a minor character, which has nothing to do with policy. There is no Wikipedia policy that says a character must appear in X out of Y episodes to warrant an article. There are instead the standards of WP:GNG, which this article meets due to the presence of reliable secondary sources. And you keep citing WP:FAN, but what essay (not a policy) states is that an article should not be fancruft or written solely from an in-universe perspective and should demonstrate out of universe notability. This article does not run afoul of that essay. — Hunter Kahn 13:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
- The character in question appears in 10 episodes out of a possible 126, making her a minor character. The main cast of the show all have articles because they appear in most of the episodes. Why should a minor character have an article if they barely appear on the show? With your reasoning, characters like Mona-Lisa and Tammy II should also have articles, but they don't, because they're minor characters.
WP:FAN applies to this article, which violates basic GNG rules.
Some Dude From North Carolina (
talk) 17:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Parks and Recreation characters. This would be a great fandom article. However, none of the sources come close to establishing notability and some struggle even to do more than verify that this character exists. The most we get for this character is a pargarph of coverage. That simply isn't sufficient for notability.
Source assessment table:
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| "TV Recap: Parks And Recreation - Canvassing" | 
|
? |  Does not mention Griggs-Knope by name; two short sentences of coverage
|
✘ No |
| "Parks & Recreation: The Banquet" |
|
? | Does not mention Griggs-Knope by name; three sentences of contrast to Leslie
|
✘ No |
| "Parks and Recreation: Season 1: Episode 2: "Canvassing"" |
|
|
Does not mention Griggs-Knope by name; one sentence mention
|
✘ No |
| "'Parks and Recreation' Finale: This One's for the Fans" |
|
|
~ We get two nearly sustained paragraphs about here at least | ~ Partial |
| "Monday TV: Parks and Recreation" |
|
Describes Griggs-Knope as corporate which is at best misleading as Griggs-Knope works in the public sector
|
Does not mention Griggs-Knope by name; one sentence mention
|
✘ No |
| "Parks and Recreation: "The Banquet" review" |
|
|
One sentence mention as part of a joke
|
✘ No |
| "The Parks and Recreation recap: The Banquet" |
|
? | Three sentences of incidental mentions
|
✘ No |
| "The Weird, Frictionless Politics Of 'Parks And Recreation'" |
|
|
Does not mention Griggs-Knope by name; one short sentence of coverage
|
✘ No |
| "Parks and Recreation, "Galentine's Day": John Larroquette woos Leslie's mom" |
|
|
In a Griggs-Knope heavy episode by a major critic she is only mentioned in relationship to a guest star
|
✘ No |
| ""Parks and Recreation" recap: Breaking up is hard to do" |
|
|
~ One paragraph of coverage from same episode as source 9 | ~ Partial |
| "Parks and Recreation Recap: Love and Loss at the Pawnee Seniors Dance" |
|
|
Does not mention Griggs-Knope by name; two sentences which mention her and like source 9 only do so in relation to other characters
|
✘ No |
| "Parks and Recreation: "The Bubble/Li'l Sebastian" Review" |
|
|
One brief sentence
|
✘ No |
| "'Parks and Recreation' Season Finale Recap: The Bubble/Lil' Sebastian" |
|
? | Does not refer to Griggs-Knope by name. Two sentences mentioning her
|
✘ No |
| Gordon, Seth | DVD commentary
|
|
? | ✘ No |
| Schur, Michael | DVD commentary
|
|
? | ✘ No |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. | ||||
Best, Barkeep49 ( talk) 21:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Perhaps the source analysis performed here can inform a clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BD2412 T 00:52, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Perhaps the source analysis performed here can inform a clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BD2412 T 00:52, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Note: A brief Google News search turns up results suggesting that there are additional and better sources available for this subject, such as "Tyler, Adrienne (June 18, 2020). "Parks & Rec: What Happened To Leslie's Father". Screen Rant." BD2412 T 03:54, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect Target List of Parks and Recreation characters#Marlene_Griggs-Knope. I don't see the argument for merge to the list (full merge would give disproportionate weight to the side character and selective merge isn't feasible because there is already a para's worth of content in the list/article, which is quite generous). I also don't see the extensive coverage on the character specifically, as per the source analysis by Barkeep49. The sources are more of an episode review, or they talk about other characters in relation to this character. No in-depth character study. Standalone article doesn't make sense. - hako9 ( talk) 06:38, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect Target List of Parks and Recreation characters#Marlene_Griggs-Knope. I agree with the reasoned analysis above my vote as to why a redirect is the best option and they put it better then I can. So, I'll save just repeating what they said and leave it at my vote. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 08:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Even her mostly-missing husband gets detailed coverage and so there's clearly plenty of interest in and coverage of this character. The obvious ATD mean that this shouldn't have been brought to AfD in the first place. AfD is not cleanup. See also WP:LIGHTBULB. Andrew🐉( talk) 08:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of Parks and Recreation characters#Marlene_Griggs-Knope, the detailed analysis above shows that this character does not pass GNG. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 10:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - reliable and good sources. Per WP:GNG. BabbaQ ( talk) 11:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of Parks and Recreation characters#Marlene_Griggs-Knope, since it isn't notable. ( 45.37.82.84) 16:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Speedy merge/redirect to List of Parks and Recreation characters. Supporting character only in a few episodes should not have a separate article. Reywas92 Talk 19:14, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- KEEP Character is perfectly appropriate for inclusion as is a fairly notable character from the show. Well sourced and written. What’s the harm in keeping it, really? Viva Lil Sebastian. Yipee8f93k ( talk) 00:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect: article is mostly in-universe, with some additional material sourced to the DVD Commentary. On the wrong side of the WP:GNG, unfortunately. Shooterwalker ( talk) 02:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect - Current content is insufficient to meet the notability threshold. TTN ( talk) 21:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.