- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. ‑Scottywong | [chat] || 07:40, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Marina Karella
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I might receive some flak for this one but given the case, it is appropriate. The article is described as one of a Greek artist but not a single sentence in the entire article speaks about her artistic achievements. The entire article revolves around her morganatic marriage and the children born out of it to Prince Michael of Greece and Denmark. Wedded morganatically means that she is neither a titular Princess of Greece nor a Princess of Denmark by marriage. i.e: Zero significance as royalty.
While the Greek version of the article does cover her artistic career, it isn't backed-up by any reliable sources and the only reference to her career in the English version of the article is a dead link. I have searched the web for reliable secondary English sources covering her career but have found none. I can read a little bit of Greek but not enough to translate any article and translation apps haven't been particularly helpful in this case. Another factor to consider is that does it make sense for an English article to be referenced by Greek sources in its majority. It makes more sense to just further develop the Greek version and improve its quality.
The trend that I have noticed over the past few months regarding royalty-related articles is that they can remain tagged for notability for years together to no avail, but once they are nominated for deletion, editors tend to jump into action-mode to gather sources to help establish notability. That being said I want to make my stand on the matter clear: IF during the course of this discussion the article is improved to the extent that it looks like a well sourced biography of a renowned artist, then I will gladly rescind my nomination but IF NOT then I stand by it as in its current state, the article fails to establish WP:GNG. TheRedDomitor ( talk) 05:32, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep About 8 non english wikipedias have an article on her, so keeping an article in the Engish wikipedia would keep us in line with them - combined with the fact there seems to be RS discussing her, including a book on her....she would seem to qualify. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 06:39, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- @
Deathlibrarian (
talk ·
contribs): Mind listing the reliable sources? Just to put them on record.
TheRedDomitor (
talk) 06:49, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- (1) Sure "Ruas, C. (2005). Marina Karella at the Benaki Museum’s Annex. Art in America, 6, 195." (2)Yablonksi, Linda "Greek To Me" ARTFORUM " https://www.artforum.com/diary/linda-yablonsky-around-athens-and-hydra-69339" (3) "It’s all Greek for the royals; Londoner’s Diary. (2006). The London Evening Standard (London, England)." (4) "Katz, V. (1998, 07). Marina karella at earl McGrath: An illustrated quarterly magazine. Art in America, 86, 100-101. Retrieved from https://search.proquest.com/docview/219745820?accountid=12372" (5) "Conti, V., (text by) Hultén, P., & (text by) Restany, P. (2004). Quatre aspects de l'art grec contemporain: Marina karella, nakis panayotidis, sophia vari, opy zouni Actes Sud: Arles, France. Retrieved from https://search.proquest.com/docview/1320795184?accountid=12372" Deathlibrarian ( talk) 07:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC) (6) "Prince Michael weds commoner" New York Times, Feb. 8, 1965 page 5"..... also, looking on Google books, there seem to be a few books about art and sculture that discuss her, however they are in German. French and Greek and I can't read them. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 07:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- @
Deathlibrarian (
talk ·
contribs): Mind listing the reliable sources? Just to put them on record.
TheRedDomitor (
talk) 06:49, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I was asked to show some RS, so I did (please see above) as they weren't in the article already, I then added that to the article. Also please note, this article is only really showing English sources, there would appear to be a lot of Greek language sources about her that we don't have in the article for instance,
most of the RS on the Greek article, are in Greek, but none of those are in the English article. IMHO the article needs a Greek speaking editor to look at it to do it justice.
Deathlibrarian (
talk) 12:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- @ Deathlibrarian Pls don't take my previous comment in a wrong way. I find your actions of trying to obtain sources to back up the contents in the article laudable. What i'm trying to say is that of the 6 references that you have listed above: The first is from Artforum. The name itself has the word forum in it, a platform where artists can come together to advertise their work as well as write about the works of each other. It is from a personal point of view, which reduces its reliability on wiki. The two references from actual RS, The New York Times and Evening Standard, are both about Karella's status as the wife of a Greek Prince rather than an artist. And the final two sources from the University of Melbourne's online library are inaccessible. It basically brings us back a full circle to the stage where there are NO references to establish her notability. Also, having an English article sourced completely from Greek sources makes no sense as a reader of the English Wikipedia wont be able to make heads or tails of it. Sunshine1191 ( talk) 12:33, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I was asked to show some RS, so I did (please see above) as they weren't in the article already, I then added that to the article. Also please note, this article is only really showing English sources, there would appear to be a lot of Greek language sources about her that we don't have in the article for instance,
most of the RS on the Greek article, are in Greek, but none of those are in the English article. IMHO the article needs a Greek speaking editor to look at it to do it justice.
Deathlibrarian (
talk) 12:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Depending entirely on Greek sources is absolutely fine if that’s what we have and they’re reliable.
Mccapra (
talk) 13:13, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
-
Sunshine1191 Oh cheers, sorry if I misunderstood you, I got a bit defensive unecessarily there. My understanding of wikipedia policy is that we can reference any RS, whether it is available online for free or not ...so the academic journals on proquest, should still stand as RS...so yes fair enough the artforum may not count as RS, but the journals from proquest should, which gives us 4 RS about her as an artist. We should also consider we are mostly so far limiting to using *English* sources...... there's a bunch of other references in other languages, eg the Greek Wikipedia article uses all Greek RS I believe.
Deathlibrarian (
talk) 13:48, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
-
Deathlibrarian I agree that Greek sources can definitely be used , so long as they are accurately translated and most importantly reliable. The problem with the proquest one's is that they aren't freely accessible by all. So how does one verify the content stated there if one can't read it in the first place.
TheRedDomitor (
talk) 14:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- There's no requirement that sources be free, nor that they be on-line. Anyone with a ProQuest account or access to a good academic library could verify them.
pburka (
talk) 03:36, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- TheRedDomitor Yes my understanding is that sources have to be verifiable... but that means that a reference has to be provided, so they can be verified... not that the editor has to provide a copy of the article themself. They are on Proquest, which is a pretty common database in any case. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 06:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- There's no requirement that sources be free, nor that they be on-line. Anyone with a ProQuest account or access to a good academic library could verify them.
pburka (
talk) 03:36, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
-
Deathlibrarian I agree that Greek sources can definitely be used , so long as they are accurately translated and most importantly reliable. The problem with the proquest one's is that they aren't freely accessible by all. So how does one verify the content stated there if one can't read it in the first place.
TheRedDomitor (
talk) 14:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
-
Sunshine1191 Oh cheers, sorry if I misunderstood you, I got a bit defensive unecessarily there. My understanding of wikipedia policy is that we can reference any RS, whether it is available online for free or not ...so the academic journals on proquest, should still stand as RS...so yes fair enough the artforum may not count as RS, but the journals from proquest should, which gives us 4 RS about her as an artist. We should also consider we are mostly so far limiting to using *English* sources...... there's a bunch of other references in other languages, eg the Greek Wikipedia article uses all Greek RS I believe.
Deathlibrarian (
talk) 13:48, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. Roller26 ( talk) 19:40, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Roller26 ( talk) 19:40, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. Roller26 ( talk) 19:40, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 01:10, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note- It has been 6 days since the article's Afd nomination but it has neither been significantly developed further nor reliable Greek sources have been added to establish notability as a painter. Sunshine1191 ( talk) 10:17, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete: The greek article from which the article is translated also does not cite reliable sources to establish notability. It was stated that greek sources would be added to the article to verify the information but that hasn't happened either. Plus just because there are some sources for the information given doesnt mean that the information (artist in this case) is significant. As stated by Sunshine1191: putting up a few exhibitions in New York doesnt make her a notable painter. Any painter in New York can find a gallery to display their work. Recognition by media and people on notable platforms is what makes an artist significant. This doesnt seem to be the case here. 223.237.177.14 ( talk) 05:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: After extensive discussion, It seems that nobody has really looked in greek and Deathlibrarian's sources have not been discussed for their content by any !voters. There is no requirement that sourcing either needs to be cited in the article or freely accessible online to establish notability.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 Talk Work 12:08, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: After extensive discussion, It seems that nobody has really looked in greek and Deathlibrarian's sources have not been discussed for their content by any !voters. There is no requirement that sourcing either needs to be cited in the article or freely accessible online to establish notability.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 Talk Work 12:08, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment the subject has helpfully compiled a web page that lists coverage in the press at http://www.marinakarella.fr/press I have only glanced over the page, but it appears that the sources all discuss her work, and for the most part are reliable sources. Vexations ( talk) 12:52, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- There is some substantial RS there, from the looks of it. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 08:57, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep I have added a list of sources to the talk page from before 2005 that show that there has been sustained, serious critical attention for her work in reputable sources. May I suggest that the nominator add the rest of the sources and fix the article? Vexations ( talk) 19:32, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment by nom: I have updated the article with the newly found sources. It now has enough information to establish notability on the basis of WP:SIGCOV. TheRedDomitor ( talk) 12:33, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Change to Keep on the basis of the improvements made to the article by the nom. Sunshine1191 ( talk) 12:47, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.