The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:20, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply

Manor of Knightshayes

Manor of Knightshayes (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)

(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

There is no "manor of Knightshaves". This is a WP:Coat rack or POV WP:CONTENTFORK from Knightshayes Court. The house is an English country house (which the National Trust occasionally loosely advertise as a "manor house", though there is no associated manor); the land attached to the house, the "estate of Knightshayes" has a varied history pre-independent of the house - detailed on Historic England, which describes it as farm land, and before that as a small area of land within the demesne of the Earl of Devon (that is, the private land within a larger manor). Description of the land belonging to the house belongs in the article on the house, unless there is evidence of the land being notable independently of the house - and that is not the case here. The Knightshayes Court article includes all the appropriate detail repeated in Manor of Knightshayes though without misleadingly describing the estate as a manor. Either it is a house/mansion/country house/manor house, in which case Knightshayes Court is sufficient, or it is a manor, in which case there would be reliable sources describing it as such - but the closest to that is the land once being a small part of a manor, but not an actual manor in itself. A redirect would not be appropriate as that would leave the title "manor of Knightshaves" (which has never existed) turning up on search engines and Wikipedia mirrors, and creating a false illusion that such a manor existed. SilkTork ( talk) 18:18, 30 November 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 18:28, 30 November 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete. Content is duplicated from Knightshayes Court and there's no source for the article title, making it an unlikely redirect. I've only recently become aware of the damage done by redirects that are original research, as SilkTork says above. Within minutes, the internet becomes polluted by mirrors and search engines scraping the redirect and creating ghits for a title or concept that has never existed previously. DrKay ( talk) 18:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete. I've already set out my thoughts about this article on its talk page. Of particular importance is the fact that although superficially the article appears to be well referenced, upon examination the references do not support its notability at all.  — SMALL JIM  22:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete. As per the commentary above. Hchc2009 ( talk) 19:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC) reply
• Keep, the article may possibly be mis-named, that does not warrant deletion. "Manor" is popularly interpreted as "historic estate", so perhaps re-name as "Estate of Knightshayes", it is a notable estate, whether it was technically a manor or not, which will depend on whether there was a manorial court in operation. It was the seat of one of the leading families of the important Devonshire town of Tiverton for several generations, leading merchants, three-times Mayor of Tiverton, Deputy Lieutenant of Devonshire and Sheriff of Devon. Also shortly after selling it they were made baronets and raised to the peerage as barons. Estates are generally made notable by who lived in them. As for the text, it's the result of a WP:Split, the following discussion occurred on the talk page of article Knightshayes Court, which resulted in the creation of this subsidiary page. The format of calling such split articles "manor of XYZ" was something suggested long ago by User:Smalljim.

Lobsterthermidor - Hi Lobster, good to see you again. I think the early history of the Dickinson family will need trimming. It’s just not that relevant to the Burges house which is the subject of the article, it doesn’t really follow a summary style, the bullet points would be better as prose, and the citation style should follow that already existing. You could, of course, start another article, “History of the Manor of Knightshayes”, or whatever it was called then. All the best. KJP1 ( talk) 13:42, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi, thank you, OK, I will move it to Manor of Knightshayes Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 13:14, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

User:KJP1 identifies himself on his talk page as a " William Burges enthusiast", and seems to have wanted to keep the main article Knightshayes Court devoted priomarily to the topic of the Victorian house designed by William Burges. Thus he requested the history of the historic estate of Knightshayes to be removed elsewhere, which was done by me. This is a notable historic estate, and its history should therefore qualify for discussion somewhere on Wikipedia, I would suggest as "Estate of Knightshayes", under section "history". Reliable and acceptable sources exist for a further expanded history of this estate, which was part of the estate of Tiverton Castle, the seat of the mediaeval Earls of Devon. Most notably David Lambert, MA, Institute of Historic Building Conservation, Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, commissioned by the National Trust. Also William Hoskins (1954) "Devon", p.497. The issue as to the title of the article has been brought up by me on the talk page, without response. I would suggest that this discussion is more relevant to Wikipedia:Moving a page than Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. It's notable and has good sources. Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply

On closer inspection I note that despite the request of KJP1 to split off the familial/descent history onto a new page (which request I complied with), on 19 November 2020‎ User:Smalljim restored much of it back into the main article "talk contribs‎ 13,743 bytes +1,102‎ →‎History: Expand with detail from article Manor of Knightshayes". The descent/history information is now back in the article, i.e. we are now back to square one. Further expansion needs to be done to the familial/descent history section, incorporating the work of David Lambert, but I suspect that will disappoint KJP1. I don't know what the answer is, I think KJP1 will be happier if we leave the main article about Burges's house and discuss history elsewhere, in a separate split-off article appropriately named. I agree that "Manor" is not an ideal title. Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:54, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Agricolae ( talk) 20:00, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete - WP:NGEO "Geographical features must be notable on their own merits. They cannot inherit the notability of organizations, people, or events." All this article really says about the property itself is the town it is near, that it was owned and sold by families of local importance, and that a notable structure was later built on it, none of which is the basis for independent notability. I just don't think it is the purpose of Wikipedia to provide a complete topographical account of every single landholding in England, nor should such articles be created as proxies or coatracks for family history articles. Agricolae ( talk) 12:55, 5 December 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete: per nom. Unnecessary CFORK made from material already in Knightshayes Court.   //  Timothy ::  talk  20:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC) reply
• Rename and repurpose -- I do not know if there was a manor of Knighthayes, though there was a house preceding the present one (now National Trust property). However this article is not about that house and certainly not about a manor, but about the Dickinson family, one of whom was a sheriff of Devon, listed in that article as "Benjamin Bowden Dickenson of Tiverton". Many but far from all sheriffs have articles. It might be possible to reconstruct this article as one on him. Alternatively merge back to Knightshayes Court. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:44, 6 December 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete - this is to the eyes of myself and other editors a WP:FORK. At a certain point, if experienced Wikipedians look at an article and say the same thing, it's probably a fork. I would not oppose a merge. Bearian ( talk) 22:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.