The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Comment Needs to be considered carefully. It is not a listed building (I have verified this at the
National Heritage List for England), but there is a substantial paragraph in Christopher Stell's Nonconformist Chapels and Meeting-houses in the North of England (1994), which is considered to be the definitive gazetteer of Nonconformist places of worship in England. I need to find out whether there is anything in the Buildings of England: Cheshire volume. Leave it with me for now and I will update. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 19:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC) Note to add: I've asked at
WP:RX re. Buildings of England: Cheshire. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 19:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Follow-up: the chapel is mentioned in the Buildings of England: Cheshire volume, but not substantially: Baptist Church, Higher Lane. Built in 1850. Of stone, with nice Decorated Gothic window tracery. The attached school was added in 1851 and extended a year later. The earlier part has two big gables, the latter gabled dormers and windows with cusped heads. (p.447) I suspect that won't be enough, even alongside the much more substantial piece in Stell. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 16:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep: I see
this news story, which provides RS SIGCOV but does not otherwise build towards GNG due to it being local coverage.
This is a pretty neat source with SIGCOV, but it's partially by a congregant and was published by the denomination that the church is affiliated with. A similar problem exists with
this. Another local news story can be seen
here. There are
two images on a local history website showing that the congregation has been around a while, but add nothing towards GNG.
This is a missionary org associated with the parish that against adds nothing towards GNG. Ditto for
this.
This is RS but is local and just says they raised funds for refugees of the war in Ukraine. All in all, the church is real and likely of at least some local historical note, given what Hassocks5489 turned up. Since we can verify it with one independent source and it seems to be a focal point for that region's Baptists, I say it can be considered weakly notable outside of the GNG standard. ~
Pbritti (
talk) 19:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth,
this book only covered the CoE parish in town, so I suppose it's unlikely the building is of architectural interest. ~
Pbritti (
talk) 20:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I am not sure I follow along with the conclusion that the links above show it is a focal point for Baptists in the region. It is a meeting point for sure, by nature of being a church, and presumably the focal point for Baptists in that town. But Lymm itself is just over a half-hour drive from both Manchester and Liverpool, which are presumably host to much more of a true focal point for Baptists in the region, unless we define region very narrowly. WhinyTheYounger ※
Talk 21:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
(With regret) Delete -- There is nothing to indicate this is not a typical local church, no different from many we routinely delete. Personally, I would like to keep many of them, but that is contrary to the consensus.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep as per the numerous reliable sources coverage identified in this discussion. Note that local coverage is permissible for historic buildings, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 21:17, 14 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment to add my source assessment table, including the sources highlighted by
Pbritti.
Short, very locally oriented article about weekly activities at the church, like painting and a gardening club — arguably not Sigcov in line with
WP:AUD
Notably, per
The Baptist Times, the paper was apparently involved in a Pakistani fake news controversy, but that is not relevant for Baptist issues
? I would argue this very short article is more about the North Western Baptist Association annual forum (Lymm BC is just mentioned as the place the conference was located at)
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
WP:AUD which is part of
WP:NCORP does not apply to churches as shown at
WP:NCHURCH which states that a church can pass
WP:GNG instead of NCORP so that local sources are acceptable for
WP:GNG so your chart incorrectly excludes at least 1 local source, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 19:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting. This seems like a borderline case that might benefit from a little more time. I'd like to say how impressive all of your detective work is, looking hard for sources that might establish GNG even when you admit that it might fall short. I wish more AFDs had this level of investigation done. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 20:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - The pdf of the historical article "A Brief History..." in the footnotes gets us a long ways towards satisfaction of GNG. The extreme weakness of our WP article makes it difficult to defend as an encyclopedic topic, but there is a legitimate historical article there if someone takes time to research and write it.
Carrite (
talk) 03:36, 23 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Another comment from me I've reviewed the historical article linked by Carrite above. I am satisfied that it is a decent example of its type (I can say from experience, having read (literally) thousands of church and chapel histories of wildly varying quality), and in conjunction with the sources I have there should be enough to "Keep" this. I will set about improving the article now and will report back here when I have got as far as I can. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 10:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
SeraphimbladeTalk to me 07:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Prob Delete - I think the history of this chapel is interesting, but for me that's not enough for a Wikipedia article. I say this as someone who is interested in British nonconformist chapels and who has delved into 100 year old newspaper archives to read about them. For me the issues are a) the architecture is nothing special for the era b) there are hundreds of similar chapels across the UK (for example in my Welsh village there were 8 similar chapels of different denominations of which 4 are still standing, all of which have a history documented in newspapers and mentioned in local church history books) and there's not much which is unique about this one c) there's an unwarranted importance given to small religious congregations which would not be deemed notable in other circumstances. For me, I think there's a line and a small congregation in a building that only dates back to the 1860s of a kind that is frequently seen across the country is not really notable - even if there is a newspaper trail of articles about fetes, preachers and prizegiving ceremonies.
JMWt (
talk) 11:04, 26 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep article has sufficient sources now and I would argue that churches are often notable as public buildings that are significant to their community even though I'm not religious. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 20:18, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Another comment from me: If consensus goes with deletion in the end here, please could it instead be moved to my Userspace instead so I can seek other sources: I know various people who are likely to have access to physical/published sources, but would need to ask around. Ta. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 20:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep Sourcing isn't great, but is over the GNG line IMO.
SportingFlyerT·C 15:47, 3 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.