The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. (
X! ·
talk) ·
@122 · 01:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete - no objective standard exists as to what constitutes a "regular" at a bath house. How many visits over what time frame make one a "regular"? The article itself points to the problems in trying to objectively quantify someone as a "regular" with its inclusion of
Justin Fashanu as a "regular" when the source supporting his inclusion explicitly describes him as a "newcomer". Although most of those currently included are dead, there is also serious potential for
WP:BLP issues since labeling someone as a "regular" at a facility for which a primary purpose is to engage in anonymous sex with multiple partners is quite likely defamatory.
Otto4711 (
talk) 19:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Note, for the case of
Justin Fashanu quoted above, a reliable source has been added showing that he was going to gay bathhouses before his visit to Chariots gay bathhouse on the night of his death. Further discussion should be on the article talk page.—
Teahot (
talk) 07:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep - This list was put up for deletion on the basis of "no objective inclusion standard as to what constitutes a "regular", possible WP:BLP concerns". Responding to the two parts of this challenge:
With regard to BLP concerns, this list is carefully sourced with good quality published reliable sources. The list has already existed on the
Gay bathhouse page for more than a year without any source or name on the list being challenged. The list was recently split from the main page. If there are any particular BLP concerns (presumably only for one person still living; this means that the concern can only relate to the inclusion of
Scott Capurro where the quote from Time Out seems a perfectly reliable source) it would be helpful if they could be elucidated for a more detailed reply as it is not possible to counter unspecified concerns.
For the term regular, I was going by the standard dictionary use of the word, the
OED defines this as "doing the same thing often or at uniform intervals". The list could be renamed
List of people who have often been to gay bathhouses or
List of gay bathhouse patrons but, honestly, the word "regular" seems a perfectly good one to use. If there is a logical reason to use a different word then I would be happy to move the page. You will note that
wp:List states "If the title does not already clarify what the list includes, then the list's lead section should do so", consequently if the word regular needs explanation then this can easily be added to the current explanation of inclusion criteria in the lead text, though again the current text appears sufficient.—
Teahot (
talk) 19:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
As the wording of the AFD reason has changed since the last attempt, I note that Fashanu has been picked as a key example. If this is the issue then I suggest that this reference is discussed on the talk page, or Fashanu removed from the list until that discussion occurs. Deleting the entire article seems a heavy handed way of dealing with "potential" BLP issues for a dead person.—
Teahot (
talk) 19:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Um, I didn't cite a dead person to support the assertion of potential BLP concerns. In fact, I explicitly stated that "most of those currently included are dead". The length of time that some of this information existed in another article is not relevant to this discussion. And again, how many visits, or at what interval, do visits to a bath house have to be made to qualify someone as a "regular"? What is the objective standard used to determine that exactly?
Otto4711 (
talk) 20:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Just to clarify, by "most" you mean all except one, and that one is backed up with a good quality reliable source? And are you discounting the idea that the lead text can be clarified due to the guidance at
List not being applicable for some reason?—
Teahot (
talk) 20:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete due to
WP:BLP concerns. The phrase "regular" is also very subjective and the list will never be complete.
DJ 20:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Please explain which, if any entries are BLP issues.
-- Banjeboi 02:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete based on
WP:BLP and
WP:N concerns, as well as DJ's point that this list is and always will be incomplete.
PowersT 20:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
All lists are generally incomplete, we have {{dynamic list}} for that very reason.
-- Banjeboi 02:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete as partial as I am to a spot of cottaging, I'm not sure I see the encyclopedic value of this article. Also,
WP:N and
WP:BLP.
Crafty (
talk) 20:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Strong Delete: While I agree that
WP:BLP doesn't, of course, apply to dead people, this list isn't named "List of dead gay bathhouse regulars" and obviously won't stay to zero live ones. Beyond that, while I dislike reaching for the cruft argument, this is as crufty a list as I can imagine still existing; no doubt you could also source a
List of sitcom actors who wear string ties in church, but that scarcely makes it encyclopedic. And despite the citation of the OED, this will remain a desperately subjective notion which smacks more of prurient interest than scholarship.
RGTraynor 20:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
The cruft argument seems weak if your argument is based on precedent; surely this list is more notable (purely on the basis of general public interest) than
List of bow tie wearers or
List of knitters in literature both of which seem to be considered encyclopaedic?—
Teahot (
talk) 23:34, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Reply: And if I had launched an argument based on precedent, a rebuttal based on one might have made sense. That being said, no, I don't think that this list is more notable than the examples you give; upon what basis do you think this is notable or informative, or that any pertinent information couldn't be merged back into the main article with a single sentence: "Historical patrons of gay bathhouses include Oscar Wilde, Rudolf Nureyev ..." That much might be illustrative to those with a burning desire to know the names of celebrities who hung out in gay bathhouses. It doesn't support a standalone article.
RGTraynor 04:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I must have misunderstood your justification of "cruft" being based on the example of "List of sitcom actors who wear string ties in church" being un-encyclopaedic and so I responded with close counter-examples. I am pleased to see you have shifted your argument to a form of Merge rather than just Strong Delete, perhaps you could amend your vote accordingly? By the way, to clarify your example text; I do not believe there are any reliable sources claiming that Oscar Wilde went to gay bathhouses, though there is evidence he enjoyed the company of rent boys, witness statements at his trial provide a perfectly reliable source.—
Teahot (
talk) 05:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep, or merge & redirect to Gay bathhouse (which is where it was to begin with, wasn't it?).
Exploding Boy (
talk) 20:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Actually this list is still embedded in
Gay bathhouse. If the rationale for deletion is unspecified BLP concerns then the same arguments should apply to the names and sourced material there. Those who propose deletion here should note that the following RFC raised for this exact same list,
Talk:Gay bathhouse#RFC is the list of Famous bathhouse regulars encyclopaedic?, concluded that the list was encyclopaedic. I guess the AFD process rather ignores pre-existing RFCs that may have been conducted? —
Teahot (
talk) 22:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete for the definitional reasons given above.
Drmies (
talk) 21:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep Per Teahot; also, the title problem has been fixed, thus invalidating the major argument for deletion. I don't get the
WP:BLP objection either. It's sourced.
Zazaban (
talk) 22:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment the page move/title change doesn't alter a thing viz deletion. It's still crufty and not encyclopedic. Check out RGTraynor's comments.
Crafty (
talk) 22:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Quite aside from that much of the commentary in that RFC was, well, yours, of course you're aware that consensus on Wikipedia does not bind future discussions; we don't do stare decisis. That being said, a number of people are answering you with their comments in this AfD.
RGTraynor 04:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep/merge. This was a break-out list from the main and itself has sourcing. I see reason to merge back to main but certainly not to delete.
-- Banjeboi 23:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete this article. It is redundant given that this information is copied from
Gay bathhouse. As per my comments on that
article's talk page, this information is a useful part of that page. It elucidates that article's subject matter, gives an idea of real life user's opinions on bathhouses over different eras. I do not see what function it serves when removed from the article which gives it context and meaning. The original section should remain in the
gay bathhouse article.Format (
talk) 23:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)reply
That would seem a reason to merge/redirect as it's not the information that is wrong or unencyclopedic, just misplaced.
-- Banjeboi 00:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Yes the content is fine. Technically there is no need to merge as the information is currently duplicated in
gay bathhouse. We do not need to return it there, it is already there. But for the sake of collating opinions, I guess mine should be keep/merge redirect.
Format (
talk) 04:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:BLP issues and the impossibility of precise definition Chzz ► 01:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete. The
WP:BLP argument is compelling. And defining a "regular" is impossible.
Tim Song (
talk) 01:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Still delete. A section in
Gay bathhouse carries exactly the same material. And just because the page says it's got to be well-sourced does not mean that people would not add unsourced stuff that offends
WP:BLP. Also per the well-reasoned arguments of RGTraynor.
Tim Song (
talk) 16:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
So a rationale for deletion is that someone may edit it in the future and then fail to meet a guideline? You may find the guidance of
NOTCENSORED helpful as it covers this exact issue. I'm sorry but I can't help but get the impression that the real issue here is some editors are struggling to accept the gay sexual nature of the topic rather than factual compliance with
BLP,
Lists or
RS. In comparison to
List of political scandals in the United Kingdom (which in over 3 years has never been challenged) this list is far more reliably sourced, in compliance with guidelines and far less controversial and yet is put up for deletion within days of being created and with no attempt to follow up on the pre-existing discussion on the article talk page.—
Teahot (
talk) 18:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I will say for the record that I have no problem with gay people whatsoever. None. I'm persuaded that
WP:BLP concerns are at a minimum and does not justify deletion. But a big problem is that the list, by those criteria, would never be approaching completion - or even near. Not only because there will be likely new notable attendees every day, but also because the strict criteria necessary to avoid
WP:BLP also made the list grossly underinclusive such that it would be of very limited usefulness to a person who wants to find a list of notable attendees. If the list is for illustration purposes - and it indeed does not claim completeness - it should be in the article it is intended to illustrate, not as a standalone page. Now, if there are 90 instead of 9, even though the list would still be underinclusive, I can understand the need to have a standalone article. But since there's only 9, I would normally vote merge, but as it is already there, delete.
Tim Song (
talk) 13:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Clarification - Please be clear I am not accusing anyone here of having a problem with gay people, this is different from accepting "the gay sexual nature of the topic". Someone who supports gay rights and lifestyles may not support the open existence or discussion about organizations where public gay sex may occur. On this page the terms "prurient" and "awful" have been used to describe the prospect of this well sourced list being added to Wikipedia which may lead you to conclude that the sexual nature of the topic is at issue rather than the unemotional issue of it being a stand-alone list or not. If I gave the impression of making accusations otherwise I unreservedly apologise.—
Teahot (migrating to Ash) (
talk) 11:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I'll add that I consider homosexuality and heterosexuality equal in all respects save for the gender of the participants. The primary reason I'm sticking with my delete vote is that the list should not be a standalone article, for the reasons stated. Its perpetual incompleteness renders it of limited use. Nothing to do with the fact that we are talking about "organizations where public gay sex may occur". Just like something like List of Chinese characters that are pronounced an1 is of little use except perhaps to illustrate that many different characters in Chinese are pronounced the same, and so should not be a standalone article but rather included in the article about Chinese, this list should have been included in the article it is intended to illustrate. I would not oppose making this into a redirect, however.
Tim Song (
talk) 00:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
keep with the name change, the remaining non-trivial coverage can clearly be sourced to reliable sources. with reliable sources,
WP:BLP is not an issue.--
The Red Pen of Doom 02:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Per Forum's comment that changed my opinion on the gay bathhouse page: "Attendance at a bathhouse was, many would say is contentious. It was possibly illegal too depending on date and region. Who attended bathhouses, which ones, and under what legal situation, illuminates the subject of bathhouses. The knitting and bonsai examples are not good examples because neither of those things are contentious, illegal, or particularly notable or uncommon. A famous person attending an illegal and stigmatised venue is notable." --
The Red Pen of Doom 04:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep I protest a perma-nooboid nomination whose only reasons have been completely removed by only a change of article title. Irresponsible and negligent; a waste of WP resources.
Anarchangel (
talk) 05:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but what's a perma-nooboid?
Zazaban (
talk) 06:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete.
WP:BLP for some of the living ones and vague inclusion criteria for the list. This isn't an issue of gay pride or homophobia. This is simply a list with vague criteria.
Niteshift36 (
talk) 19:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
It would be genuinely helpful if you could explain the BLP failure in the article, even if just for one case. Which living person and which sources are inadequate would be useful. I would be happy to take it up on the article talk page.—
Teahot (
talk) 20:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Note; Capurro has now been removed from the list whilst the citations are under discussion on the talk page. Consequently, the number living people on the list is now zero, with obvious implications for current issues with
BLP.—
Teahot (
talk) 06:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment (proposal) I am increasingly concerned at how discussion on this page is changing the original opinions contributed. This AFD was raised without following the guidance of
WP:BEFORE, in particular: "Consider making the page a useful redirect or proposing it be merged rather than deleted. Neither of these actions requires an AfD.", and "Before nominating a recently created article, please consider that many good articles started their Wikilife in pretty bad shape. Unless it is obviously a hopeless case, consider sharing your reservations with the article creator or notifying an associated wikiproject, mentioning your concerns on the article's discussion page, and/or adding a "cleanup" template, instead of bringing the article to AfD."
This AFD was raised for a second time after the first was removed (not by me BTW) and discussion on the talk page recommended. Had this advice been followed then this same discussion would have been conducted in a less confrontational environment.
I would like to propose we follow the guidance of
Wikipedia:DEL#Discussion"Deletion discussions that are really unresolved content disputes may be closed by an administrator, and referred to the talk page or other appropriate forum." and move this discussion to the article talk page where, in my opinion, it should have started.—
Teahot (
talk) 14:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Response: Mm, but the problem with that is that the Delete proponents are, by and large, not saying "We think there are problems with the way this article is handling information, and it can be salvaged." It's much more "We disagree that this should be a standalone article at all, and it's inherently unsalvageable." That's an appropriate subject for AfD.
RGTraynor 02:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Okay, if I take as true "inherently unsalvageable", how can this list be unsalvageable and yet exactly the same list that happens to be embedded in
Gay bathhouse is perfectly okay? Surely the same rules apply and the embedded list should be deleted for exactly the same reasons?—
Ash (previously Teahot) (
talk) 07:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Asked and answered above; while a sentence such as I've already given makes for a factoid acceptable in a larger article, it doesn't make for a standalone article - and I emphasize "article" as you're attempting to substitute "list" for my own wording. Again, obviously you don't agree, but that's for the closing admin to sort out; you really don't need to try to rebut every statement anyone makes.
RGTraynor 18:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Awful list concept. Prurient, perpetually incomplete, unlikely to add value to the encyclopedia. That's not even beginning to consider privacy concerns if anybody living gets added to such a list. RayTalk 20:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Not encyclopedic, invites BLP problems. JN466 21:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete and partition anything useful into the specific articles. List criteria are nebulous, and there's simply no way to keep it from being an
Attractive Nuisance for BLP issues.
Jclemens (
talk) 02:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"attractive nuisance" is a legal term that, even if it does not have a wikipedia article, is used appropriately here. although you are correct in that such a legal concept is not in place within Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, but
WP:NOTCENSORED is. --
The Red Pen of Doom 12:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC) reply
Strong Delete Not even close to encyclopedic, screams BLP problems, per User:Jayen466.
Bearian (
talk) 18:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Notable examples from the past should be kept in the main article. I accept the reasoning of the creators of this list and their efforts to avoid BLP problems. But the list will attract (even good faith) edits that are (at best) far from encyclopedic: the fact that Mr. X attends gay bath houses may be suitable material for a certain sort of newspaper, but not for an encyclopedia. --
Simon Speed (
talk) 01:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Get Real. This is not what WP is all about.
Stellarkid (
talk) 03:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Seems a trivial intersection, grouping men together by an extremely minor activity. Why no "List of people that go to the pub"? People notable for going to bathhouses should be in the main article, notable people who just happen to go to them do not need listing.
YobMod 14:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
My interpretation of
Lists is that there is no requirement that would mean a list of people has to be restricted to those famous "for" the topic. As you are using examples, a close match to the one you have given here is
List of teetotalers where the criteria is only that the notable person has been teetotal for some part of their lives, not that they are famous "for" being teetotal. As this list is okay, then
List of drinkers actually seems rational but actually both list concepts are far more trivial than this list up for deletion. BTW this list is not an "intersection" as there are no notable women who have ever been documented as going to gay bathhouses and if there were, then a simple name change of this list would solve the issue rather than deletion.—
Teahot (migrating to Ash) (
talk) 15:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
WP:SAL says "Selected lists of people should be selected for importance/notability in that category and should have Wikipedia articles (or the reasonable expectation of an article in the future). For example,
lists of atheists doesn't include every individual with a Wikipedia article who happens to be an atheist, because not all of them are notable for their atheism." So that's where it's stated that lists of people should be restricted to those famous for the topic. And the "intersection" has nothing to do with gender; it's an intersection between "famous people" and "gay bathhouse regulars".
Thank you for explaining that. I have clarified the lead text in order to address the matter of notability of the individual for going to gay bathhouses and make the criteria and rationale explicit rather than implied. Please note (as stated at the top of this AFD) the list name has already been changed in order to remove the word "famous", there is an open discussion on the talk page with regard to the term "notable" as a further name change is likely better to comply with the guidance of
WP:Lists.—
Teahot (migrating to Ash) (
talk) 05:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.