- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. North America 1000 15:04, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
List of fictional deities
AfDs for this article:
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- List of fictional deities ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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This list is unreferenced and fails WP:NLIST. An attempt to list all fictional gods, mostly from zillion works of fantasy, is unwieldy. While there are some listicles about "most powerful god in DC comics" or such, I couldn't find any reliable source attempting to replicate such a list (outside Wikipedia). Of course, the concepts of gods in fiction or such would likely be notable, as an analytical article (my BEFORE does suggest entries on "gods" or such exist in, for example, some encyclopedias of science fiction and fantasy), but a listing of all such entities seems to fail the cited policy (NLIST). I'll add that the previous AfD seems to have a numbe of people confusing this poorly referenced list with the aforementioned "gods in ficton" article, and voting keep, thinking that something could be rescued. Over a year has passed, nothing has been improved, and IMHO nothing here is salvageable (so as far as transforming this into an analytical entry, WP:TNT applies). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Comics and animation, and Religion. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete Per nom. I watchlist this article due to an LTA who used to slam every character that was ever even remotely hinted to have "celestial" or "god" powers into it with long grandois titles. Keeping it from continuing to spiral out of control is the best I could do, fixing it is likely impossible. It's poorly defined (What is a deity? We have everything from outright gods to demigods to angels to Hercules-style characters). And even then, it is horribly woefully incomplete. I agree with Piotrus that a gods in fiction article may be something adjacent that could be sourced, however, this list isn't that. If someone believes it was meant to cover gods in fiction more generally, as at least one person stated at the last AFD, then TNT is required to get there. -- ferret ( talk) 13:19, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - This article does not cite any sources, and making a complete list of all fictional deities is very impractical.
User: Hemanth Nalluri 11 (
Talk) 15:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- It doesn't list all of them, just those that have a valid link to a Wikipedia article about them. Dream Focus 16:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete The earlier AfD ended up as "Keep" and it really made no sense. Unless we are saying that "deities" are absolutely real unless they are found in movies, then only it would make sense but we know that is not actually sensible. Srijanx22 ( talk) 15:17, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete it’s time we kicked Wikipedia’s addiction to wp:indiscriminate zero-effort wp:listcruft and started covering these topics with actual articles like an actual encyclopedia. Dronebogus ( talk) 16:12, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Just under two years ago, the same person nominated the article for deletion, and the 7 others that showed up to vote all said Keep. This is a perfectly valid list article, aids in navigation, links to related articles.
WP:LISTPURP
Dream Focus 16:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- There is a good reason why at least one of those voters, if not more, were topic banned from participation in deletion discussion. I'll note your own topic ban was discussed - but not implemented; I voted against it back then - but your "keep" vote with no argument pertaining to the article in question is hardly best practices. Please tell us why you think the article should be kept. You link to LISTPURP - fair enough, IMHO that guideline is not met.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 18:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I gave you a clear reason. And what part of that guideline do you not believe is met? Also the list has more information than the category does
Category:Fictional deities so is more useful for those seeking to find information about fictional deities.
Dream Focus 19:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Having a purpose is not enough (per Wikipedia:ITSUSEFULL). Meeting Manual of Style is not sufficient to warrant keeping in article, when other policies (LISTN, SYNTH) are not met. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- I gave you a clear reason. And what part of that guideline do you not believe is met? Also the list has more information than the category does
Category:Fictional deities so is more useful for those seeking to find information about fictional deities.
Dream Focus 19:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- There is a good reason why at least one of those voters, if not more, were topic banned from participation in deletion discussion. I'll note your own topic ban was discussed - but not implemented; I voted against it back then - but your "keep" vote with no argument pertaining to the article in question is hardly best practices. Please tell us why you think the article should be kept. You link to LISTPURP - fair enough, IMHO that guideline is not met.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 18:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep: the list was correctly kept two years ago on the grounds that it fully met the list notability criteria, and that the topic was (and remains now) certainly notable. I don't actually understand why editors should ignore a clear consensus of that type when nothing of significance has changed in the interval — it's close to an abuse of process really. The deletion reasons given above are incorrect and inapplicable. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:21, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Weak Delete - While a navigational list on the topic might be valid, there are just too many problems with how this is one is currently presented. First, many of the listed examples are not notable, and do not link to their own articles - not only are there many with no blue links at all, but many of the blue linked entries themselves are misleading, as they do not actually link to an independent article on the deity. Several of the blue linked entries also fail the actual criteria of the list, of "not include deities worshipped by humans in real life that appear in fictional works" - a number of these entries are, in fact, just "real world" deities that happened to have appeared in a piece of fiction. Second, without a single source being used to verify any of this information, the whole thing is filled with
WP:OR - many of the entries here are highly debatable if they are, in fact, "deities", and there are some that I would argue flatly are not. Without valid sourcing, this would not be proper to keep even as a navigational list due to those
WP:OR concerns.
Rorshacma (
talk) 17:45, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- There is an option you can unlock that makes blue links that are only redirects appear green instead of blue. Most of the blue links are in fact their own articles. Real life gods people once believed in have separate articles for their comics versions.
Ares (DC Comics),
Hercules (DC Comics),
Hercules (Marvel Comics),
Odin (Marvel Comics),
Thor (Marvel Comics), etc.
Dream Focus 18:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- The "DC" or "Marvel" versions of the characters still do not fall into the scope of the list, which is very specifically stated to be "deities exclusively for fictional works" that "does not include deities worshipped by humans in real life that appear in fictional works". As in, deities that were originally created for a piece of fiction, not "real" deities that have been adapted for a piece of fiction, in the way that the examples you brought up are. This list, as presented, is for "fictional deities", as in, deities that do not "exist", not a list of "real" deities portrayed in fiction, which is an entirely different topic.
Rorshacma (
talk) 18:31, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I fixed it. It now clarifies: This is a list of deities exclusively for
fictional works, organized primarily by media type then by title of the fiction work, series, franchise or author. This list does not include
deities worshiped by humans in real life that appear in fictional works unless they are distinct enough to be mentioned in a Wikipedia article separate than the articles for the entities they are based on.
Dream Focus 18:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Now, can you show a single, reliable source that contains such a grouping, so that LISTN would be met? Let me help you with what is required: "accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines... The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been".
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 16:46, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @ Piotrus: A single source? How about The Greenwood Encyclopedia, pages 349 and following. Daranios ( talk) 14:07, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Now, can you show a single, reliable source that contains such a grouping, so that LISTN would be met? Let me help you with what is required: "accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines... The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been".
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 16:46, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- I fixed it. It now clarifies: This is a list of deities exclusively for
fictional works, organized primarily by media type then by title of the fiction work, series, franchise or author. This list does not include
deities worshiped by humans in real life that appear in fictional works unless they are distinct enough to be mentioned in a Wikipedia article separate than the articles for the entities they are based on.
Dream Focus 18:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- The "DC" or "Marvel" versions of the characters still do not fall into the scope of the list, which is very specifically stated to be "deities exclusively for fictional works" that "does not include deities worshipped by humans in real life that appear in fictional works". As in, deities that were originally created for a piece of fiction, not "real" deities that have been adapted for a piece of fiction, in the way that the examples you brought up are. This list, as presented, is for "fictional deities", as in, deities that do not "exist", not a list of "real" deities portrayed in fiction, which is an entirely different topic.
Rorshacma (
talk) 18:31, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- There is an option you can unlock that makes blue links that are only redirects appear green instead of blue. Most of the blue links are in fact their own articles. Real life gods people once believed in have separate articles for their comics versions.
Ares (DC Comics),
Hercules (DC Comics),
Hercules (Marvel Comics),
Odin (Marvel Comics),
Thor (Marvel Comics), etc.
Dream Focus 18:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Related AFDS Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cosmic entity (Marvel Comics) and Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cosmic_entity_(DC_Comics) Dream Focus 18:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Err, what's the problem with this list again? WP:NOTCLEANUP is still a thing - if it's unreferenced, just add them yourself. Fictional deities is still a rather prominent category of characters in fiction that deserves to be listed, and most of the links in the list are bluelinks. Listing all fictional gods is unnecessary, just ones that have articles. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 21:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep
[1],
[2],
[3]. GNG is met, topic is notable, cleanup may proceed per normal editing process.
Jclemens (
talk) 21:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, those are decent sources for writing an article on religion in fiction/culture, not a list of fictional gods. That's why we can have
Cuckoo clock in culture, but
list of fictional cuckoo clocks would a harebrained idea :P
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 08:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Fictional cuckoo clocks aren't discussed as a group in reliable sources, while the topic of fictional gods absolutely is. That argument is merely false equivalence. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 12:01, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with Piotrus. None of these studies discuss specific fictional gods as a group. One is specific to Final Fantasy, one is specific to a single Virgin Comics line, and the last is about the very concept of fictional deities and building them out, rather than a discussion about a group of already existent characters. Good sources for a gods in fiction or similar, but does not appear to contribute to LISTN. -- ferret ( talk) 15:57, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, those are decent sources for writing an article on religion in fiction/culture, not a list of fictional gods. That's why we can have
Cuckoo clock in culture, but
list of fictional cuckoo clocks would a harebrained idea :P
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 08:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. As pointed out above, mythical deities are discussed as a set in sources ( User:Jclemens has sources right above me), and this meets NLIST. The list article itself is linking to notable Wikipedia entries that themselves have sources. Lists of Wikipedia notable subjects with articles often do not have sources in the list itself, as the references are in the listed articles, that's not a cause for deletion. Pikavoom Talk 05:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep but purge everything that doesn't have its own article. ★Trekker ( talk) 07:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - How is WP:NLIST met again? Where is a single source that attempts to list all (or even "important") fictional gods? This is fancruft and WP:OR. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 15:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Additionally, I believe that the article can be recreated if needed but with a name like " Gods in fiction" as suggested by the nominator. Srijanx22 ( talk) 16:46, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @ GizzyCatBella: WP:NLIST is not (only) met by secondary sources listing fictional gods, but rather by secondary sources which discuss "fictional gods" or "gods in fiction" as a "grouping or set in general". For such sources, see below. Daranios ( talk) 18:01, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete With the possibility to create a new gods in fiction article, as per nomination. MrsSnoozyTurtle 22:25, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, simply restrict to deities which are treated on Wikipedia somewhere, i.e. have blue links, to avoid it becoming "unwieldy". (Having the respective sub-lists also avoids this problem exactly the way
WP:SALAT suggests we should do this.) I find this list very appropriate for navigational purposes according to
WP:LISTPURP. As for this topic supposedly failing
WP:LISTN: A number of sources have been pointed out which cover different parts of the topic, both here and in
the previous discussion. Additionally, sources that discuss the topic as a set or group would be
The Greenwood Encyclopedia, pages 349 and following,
The Science-Fiction Encyclopedia, and arguably
Science Fiction Literature Through History: An Encyclopedia, p. 461 and following and the conference
Fantastic Religions and Where to Find Them: Deities, Myths and Rites in Science Fiction and Fantasy.
Daranios (
talk) 14:07, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- @
Daranios Excellent sources, some of which I mentioned before, for
gods in fiction, a proper analytical treatment, different from a list of trivia we are discussion. The listing of all times fictional gods were invented in various works, most of which are not notable, is TVTropes material.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:50, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- @ Piotrus: I think a gods in fiction article would be nice to have. It would be for discussion of the subject. That's no reason not to have a list, which is for annotated navigation between those deific characters which already have articles or article sections on Wikipedia. By this restriction, which in large parts is already implemented in the list as is, solves the problems you have raised. Daranios ( talk) 16:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- @
Daranios Excellent sources, some of which I mentioned before, for
gods in fiction, a proper analytical treatment, different from a list of trivia we are discussion. The listing of all times fictional gods were invented in various works, most of which are not notable, is TVTropes material.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:50, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - I agree with the nominator's rationale. BennyOnTheLoose ( talk) 14:54, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Leaning keep. Lots of blue links with a transparently rational organizing criteria. BD2412 T 01:29, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.