- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The genre is not sufficiently well-defined. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:59, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
List of console adventure games
- List of console adventure games ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Unnecessary to have a list based upon adventure games that have been released for consoles. There's Category:Adventure games. It doesn't just list adventure games that were released exclusively on consoles, also the ones that have seen PC releases. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 12:14, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 12:15, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sarahj2107 ( talk) 09:27, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sarahj2107 ( talk) 09:27, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep The list covers the same topic as the Category:Console adventure games, which is a valid one; and being a list, it offers a more informative layout for reader's consumption. The topic as such has received RS coverage re. Lack of refere( [1], [2]), which makes it pass WP:LISTN. Diego ( talk) 10:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Delete - The list isn't manageable, it's not useful to compare video games across generations in any meaningful sense, and splitting it from a general "list of all adventure games" takes it out of the proper context of comparison between console adventures and PC adventures. So I suppose on both counts that's a vio of WP:NPOV.
Aside: The category itself should probably also be deleted per WP:DEFINING; we don't intersect genre with console--and if we should, that's either way a different question. -- Izno ( talk) 12:51, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
DeleteNeutralUserfly: That would make a very long and indiscriminate list, especially across multiple console generations. Current list only notes the console in question and the year, which is hardly enough to justify an indiscriminate list. It's just not manageable. ~ Mable ( chat) 13:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)- Your argument would be a reason to split the list if/when it grows unmanageable, not to delete it. We have the equivalent category which is perfectly manageable. I would agree to restrict the list to only those games that are exclusive to consoles, or for which the console version is notable on its own, as a way to have a stronger inclusion criterion; that would be definitely manageable.
Diego (
talk) 13:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- How would you intend to split the list? I might approve of more specific lists (such as " List of adventure games on the Nintendo Entertainment System"), but even if such lists were created, I would still !vote delete. Categories aren't restricted to inclusion criteria: editors can discuss whether something should fit in a certain category on a talk page, but in the end, the exact limits don't matter much, as categories aren't articles themselves and mainly intended simply to make it easier to find articles.
- There are 183 console adventure games listed in this category, which already makes a long list. I would imagine that, for a large amount of them, you'd have difficulty to find a source referring to the game as an adventure game specifically. It's already a somewhat vaguely defined genre. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the games listed in Category:Adventure games have also seen a console release and are simply miscategorized. I haven't actually done my research on this, but it would be difficult to convince me that "console adventure game" is a good topic for a list without it being sourced well. Generally, describing the subject of the list does wonders. What do all the items on this list got to do with one another? Why should I care about that item if I care about this item? What is the overall importance of this grouping? That's the sort of things that result in WP:LISTN ~ Mable ( chat) 14:14, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your argument would be a reason to split the list if/when it grows unmanageable, not to delete it. We have the equivalent category which is perfectly manageable. I would agree to restrict the list to only those games that are exclusive to consoles, or for which the console version is notable on its own, as a way to have a stronger inclusion criterion; that would be definitely manageable.
Diego (
talk) 13:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's the sort of things that are documented in the sources I provided:
- "Adventure games have a different connotation on consoles. On PC, adventure games almost always mean point-and-click or a variation of that style of gameplay. However, on a console there’s no mouse or pointer to click with. Usually, developers have to include other forms of gameplay together with the more common elements of adventure games, which are story elements, interaction and dialogue with NPCs, exploration of locations and scenarios, and puzzle elements. On consoles, there are very often action sequences included and other dynamics familiar to console gamers."
- "Robinett essentially created the console adventure game, and pioneered several videogame conventions that are now so common that we take them for granted." " The controller was a directional joystick with a single button.“ "The first step was translating the game from a purely text experience to a purely graphical one. Robinett cleverly reduced environments, characters, and objects to instantly recognizable, simple icons."
- The topic is there. Lack of references is an argument for improvement and refinement, not deletion.
- Categories and lists are
no different in terms of inclusion guidelines - categorization of topics that are well defined by reliable sources is an accepted criterion.
Diego (
talk) 15:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- You're starting to convince me that there could theoretically be some value to such a list, or at the very least such an article. Only two good sources is pretty weak, though, and one of them focuses entirely on the 1970s. I also don't know if Gaming Enthusiast is a reliable source - if not, the article wouldn't have much to stand on... ~
Mable (
chat) 18:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- There are
plenty more where these came from (see
Ars Technica,
IGN,
Gamasutra...); I didn't try to make an extensive search, but I've certainly read lots of published content regarding how adventures need to be adapted for consoles given their lack of text and mouse inputs.
Diego (
talk) 22:36, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Changed to neutral per sources, though an article would still work better. ~
Mable (
chat) 04:53, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- Gaming Enthusiast is not a reliable source. The more recent links do not go into depth on the importance of console-exclusive adventure games as a subdivision. czar 05:13, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can agree to move the list to Draft space for a while, with the goal to transform it into a proper article. The current list could be tightened and placed as a section, like the ones we have at Art games and Video games as an art form. Diego ( talk) 09:39, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- Changed to neutral per sources, though an article would still work better. ~
Mable (
chat) 04:53, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- There are
plenty more where these came from (see
Ars Technica,
IGN,
Gamasutra...); I didn't try to make an extensive search, but I've certainly read lots of published content regarding how adventures need to be adapted for consoles given their lack of text and mouse inputs.
Diego (
talk) 22:36, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- You're starting to convince me that there could theoretically be some value to such a list, or at the very least such an article. Only two good sources is pretty weak, though, and one of them focuses entirely on the 1970s. I also don't know if Gaming Enthusiast is a reliable source - if not, the article wouldn't have much to stand on... ~
Mable (
chat) 18:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- On a side-note, Izno's comment on why the console adventure games category should probably also be deleted as it is an intersection with genre and platform is also pretty good, by the way. We use tools to find such intersection, so they don't need to exist. ~ Mable ( chat) 14:17, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Delete. As above, very unclear inclusion criteria. Exclusive for consoles would be one story and what about games described in one source as "adventure" but in others as a subgenre? All in all, the scope issues as is are insurmountable. czar 14:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: I just noticed that the article also lists pc-only games ("Microsoft Windows, OS X, Linux") - is that an error? Also, how would this list deal with games that originate on PC and were ported to consoles? This is especially confusing when the "console" in question is a hand-held ("Microsoft Windows, Nintendo DS"). ~
Mable (
chat) 14:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- As I pointed above, we can include console-only adventures and action-adventures ( Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Dark Souls, Journey, Heavy Rain); games that are ported from other system should require a RS indicating the reason what the console version has special. Diego ( talk) 15:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Delete - This list could easily swell into the thousands eventually, and as stated, there's no clear criteria for inclusion. It's arguable that most video games being made for consoles today have an "adventure" element. — Torchiest talk edits 20:14, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep, per WP:PURPLIST: Lists which contain internally linked terms (i.e., wikilinks) serve, in aggregate, as natural tables of contents and indexes of Wikipedia. - Lists can be very useful as navigational tools, without requiring notability on their own. Yes, it could go grow bigger in the future, but there are other ways to deal with that than deletion. -- Reinoutr ( talk) 10:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Possible new solution: Move. Because the issue is with the unnecessary distinction of çonsole adventure games, we could move this to List of adventure games (which currently redirects to List of graphic adventure games. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 09:27, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep The article provides a very useful list of adventure games released in (or fan translated to) English. Given the scarcity of reliable sources that could provide this kind of information, it is important to have the list here. I strongly believe action-adventure games should be not added to the list, and this must be made absolutely clear in the article as to avoid confusion. Besides, perhaps a better option would be changing this list into an article about the "chronology of console adventure games". This would justify the existence of the article even more. --
ThiagoSimoes (
talk) 00:53, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- But the only sources we do have list action-adventure games almost exclusively, such as Shadow of the Colossus and Dark Souls. That exclusion makes no sense (even though the inclusion doesn't make any sense either) ~
Mable (
chat) 05:14, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- It currently has two sources, one of which is not a WP:VG/RS. How does it meet WP:GNG? Other issues are that the games listed are not "console" games exclusively: if that would be the case, it would make some sense. Dune (video game), Game of Thrones (video game), Murdered: Soul Suspect, the list goes on. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 07:52, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- But the only sources we do have list action-adventure games almost exclusively, such as Shadow of the Colossus and Dark Souls. That exclusion makes no sense (even though the inclusion doesn't make any sense either) ~
Mable (
chat) 05:14, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note; there's a huge overlap with List of graphic adventure games. If we would remove all games that aren't considered adventure games and remove all those that aren't console exclusive, we wouldn't have anything left to keep. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 07:57, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 09:17, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 09:17, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 19:36, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Delete - there is a very loose and difficult to define inclusion criteria here. What exactly constitutes an 'adventure game' is rather nebulous. Insert CleverPhrase Here 03:47, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Strong delete - Already said by many, the inclusion criteria makes it unmanageable. Where is Cursed Mountain? According to our adventure game article, visual novels are included, but none are included here. Why the arbitrary rule that handheld games are not included, and goes on to show games on the Nintendo DS? Why do some game list all the platforms it's on, but not all? From a glance, Heavy Rain is also on PS4, Flower, Sun, and Rain is on DS, Machinarium is on tons of platforms, but only lists PS3. Games such as The Book of Unwritten Tales is not on any console, but included (and not listed correctly). What is the actual point of the list? The criteria and information follows no actual guideline, and is more like a personal list than something that belongs on Wikipedia. I went from delete to strong delete just in the time of writing my thoughts on it. It's both too broad and too narrow, somehow. -- Wirbelwind( ヴィルヴェルヴィント) 05:34, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Are you arguing with respect to the current article's state, or what it can become with a well-defined criterion? Who says there is a rule that handheld games ought not to be included? The particulars of what details to include for each entry belong to the article's talk page, not to the discussion that decides on the notability of the topic. (However you're right that The Book of Unwritten Tales doesn't seem to pertain, I've removed it; I think it was included because the II part in the series is released for PS4). As I said above, I would limit the list inclusion criterion to console exclusives or those for which the console port is significant in some way, and where reliable sources consistently place the game in the adventure genre. Diego ( talk) 13:34, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Due to the variety of options suggested here, I think another week would help. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Due to the variety of options suggested here, I think another week would help. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Strong delete What exactly defines an "adventure game"? Music1201 ( talk) 22:57, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect to List of graphic adventure games, a more comprehensive list. Having a separate list like this is redundant and pointless. It can be easily covered in the original list. AdrianGamer ( talk) 14:59, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.