From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. slakr\  talk / 10:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC) reply

List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces

List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

1. WP:POVFORK. All content of this list can be included in List of massacres in Sri Lanka.
2. Inclusion of this list contradicts WP:NPOV, with the non inclusion of List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam for more details.

Many government forces fought wars throughout the human history, and many massacres were attributed to most of those armies/military forces. But this list is an exception, because Wikipedia does not include specific lists of massacres attributed to military forces, rather than having 'country specific massacre lists' or 'war specific massacre lists'. In addition to that, this list is also a clear case of using Wikipedia for promoting propagandas, going beyond the simple rules of Wikipedia. -- LahiruG talk 09:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply

Keep- this is quite clearly a controversial topic with a lot of political ground on it, which, as you say can make it controversial on a POV basis. However, I do not believe this page merits deletion on that basis. I'd like to point out the article is extremely well sourced and referenced, regardless if one approves of it or not there seems sufficient grounds to say what has been done "has been done", we are not about hiding things on wikipedia if they are facts. We do not push to get rid of an article because our political preferences disapprove of it. It may be worth as an alternative editing or shaping this page to show how these events demonstrate parts of a wider conflict and instability within Sri Lanka. If you feel massacres or controversies attributed to other armed forces do not exist on wikipedia, then there's always the possibility of changing that isn't there? TF92 ( talk) 09:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply
FYI, 'List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam' was also a well sourced article with RS and your entire argument is applicable to that page too, but it was decided to delete it on redundancy/POV fork at the AFD. Thanks. -- LahiruG talk 03:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC) reply

Keep but rename to List of Civilian attacks attributed to Sri Lankan government forces: Considering the allegations of ethnic cleansing on both government forces and LTTE, this is a relevant and must have topic. (However we came to a consensus to remove the list of massacres attributed to the LTTE. didn't we?) Anyway, the problem with the word massacres is its definition. It has no legal definition and its just an opinion. There are few workable definitions. Benvenisti et al ( [1] p75 - 76) defines massacre using Palestinian conflict as a model, as "it is the killing of unarmed civilians or combatants who have surrendered and who have come under the authority of the conquering force, by an armed or paramilitary force. Massacres also involves the use of lethal force in a variety of forms (terror attacks, aerial bombardment, reprisals etc.) against civilians, unrelated to military necessity but nevertheless occurring in the context of a total of and with the aim of producing ethnic cleansing." He further adds that, massacre requires three key elements. 1)perpetrators are government or quasi government agents 2)the victims are individuals who, according to the international rules of war, are not to be killed even if hostilities exist 3)the killings are not the result of any military necessary or threat posed by the victims, but instead, are part of another greater strategy. Usually first 2 elements are not the problem, but the third is. For instance, St. Philip Neri Church shelling, Vaharai bombing, Padahuthurai bombing, Chencholai bombing and all the alleged bombings of hospitals by indirect fire etc. In these instances who is gonna decide whether all these are really a massacre or not? Diiferent users will have different opinions. So i think the best solution is to rename as "attacks on civilians" which will reduce all the POV problems with regard to this list. I don't think this is a POV fork.Thanks Nishadhi ( talk) 15:42, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply

All these incidents were happened in Sri Lanka, so all of them can be included in List of massacres in Sri Lanka. And there are no lists of 'Civilian attacks attributed to Israeli forces', 'Civilian attacks attributed to Bosnian Serb forces' etc. in Wikipedia, so why there should be an exception only for Sri Lankan forces ?-- LahiruG talk 04:16, 7 June 2015 (UTC) reply
To be more specific, all these incidents happened in the territories comprising North and Eastern Sri Lanka characterized by a civil war for a separate state from Sri Lanka. There are specific article titles such as List of massacres in Palestine which extensively covers the massacres of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli forces. Tamils had politically and collectively expressed their will for independence from the Sri Lankan state, whose forces are accused of perpetuating these massacres covered in the article. The Mahinda Rajapaksa government which brought an end to the war was a regime that rode from the elections which the North and the East boycotted. All the massacres which took place before Mullivaikkal happened in the principal territory of Eelam Tamils who were rising for statehood for the same territory independent from a unitary Sri Lanka. Since the massacres almost exclusively pertain to the Tamil majority areas in the island, I guess a befitting move would be to some thing like List of massacres in Tamil Eelam. -- CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 14:08, 14 June 2015 (UTC) reply
I also believe in this context, lack of preceding articles as a mandate for deletion, is a lame excuse. The Sri Lankan government self-proclaims itself as the first state to eradicate militancy from its soil, so there can always be a first time. You had first proposed this nomination under redundancy, now that you are unable to back that cause up(as to how this really deserves a merger), you are simply engaging in endless diversions to manipulate the discussion.-- CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 14:31, 14 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Nothern and eastern provinces are also a part of Sri Lanka and in my view your suggestion fails WP:SYNTH. There's no point in wasting more time on these kind of nonsense. Thanks. -- LahiruG talk 05:29, 15 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Sri Lanka has a long bloody history and has witnessed hundreds of massacres. Have a single list, List of massacres in Sri Lanka, for every massacre that has happened in Sri Lankan history would result in a very, very long list. So it makes sense to have separate lists by perpetrators, conflict etc.
I'm afraid this nomination is simply WP:REVENGE for this.-- obi2canibe talk contr 15:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC) reply
(i) User:Yucatann never created a List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces, the title of the article he created was List of attacks attributed to the Sri Lankan Military. It was only on 11 Novemebr 2013, your good friend User:Copperchloride moved the page [2] to make it a specific 'List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces' without making any move request or having any consensus at the talk page to do so. Having missing entries in the parent article is not a valid reason to have a child article, if all those entries are eligible to appear in the first list.
(ii) Yep, Sri Lanka has a long bloody history and has witnessed hundreds of massacres and Tamil Tigers are responsible for the biggest potion of them. That's why I created a separate list of List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, but you disagreed and nominated the list for deletion. And at the AFD it was decided [ not to include] a separate list of civilian massacres attributed to the Tamil Tigers. So just after two weeks from your contradictory nomination, now you also believes that "it makes sense to have separate lists by perpetrators, conflict etc."
(iii) Sorry, this is not seeking revenge, but the 'justice' and consistency of WP:NPOV, a policy that is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. -- LahiruG talk 05:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC) reply
The title may have changed several times but the content has not - right from the beginning it has only ever had civilian massacres, it has never included "military" massacres, assassinations, battles etc. I suggest you go into a darkened room and study WP:SPLIT so that you understand why articles are split and what happens to content on the parent article when it is split.-- obi2canibe talk contr 14:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC) reply
It wasn't me who thwarted the split, isn't it? Any way the List of massacres in Sri Lanka is not a very long list that one can't go through easily. As we all know WP:NPOV is a policy that cannot be defied or superseded, either by WP:SPLIT or by the opportunistic POV of some users. -- LahiruG talk 09:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Keep It is well evident that this entry has been brought up on grounds of this one. But it is short-sighted to draw parallels between the two. The other list was plain redundant while this one has a substantial coverage of innumerable events and details backed by reliable citations. This list is of vital importance in the context of Sri Lankan Civil War as it covers the systematic state policies of the Sri Lankan state aimed at destroying and dehumanizing the Tamil ethnicity. Some were war-related, and some can be diluted as mass murder, but a vast majority of the events were purportedly inflicted against Tamil civilians even when Tamil militancy was at its infancy(1950-1990). I quote User Nishadi's statement for the same(3 key elements). There are not less than 120 instances recorded by NESOHR of massacre of Tamil civilians(including Muslims) by the Sri Lankan State forces. Lack of valid reasons to delete/change page title. -- CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 18:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC) reply
You may see it as "short-sighted to draw parallels between the two lists of massacres attributed to Tamil Tigers and SL government forces", but for a neutral person the massacres of Tamils or the massacres of Sinhalese and Muslims are of the same importance in the context of Sri Lankan war. Don't be bias and see that only a 'list of massacres attributed to government forces' is of vital importance in the context of Sri Lankan Civil War. As you are well aware Tamil Tigers committed a large number of civilian massacres of Sinhalese, Muslims and even Tamils who do not adhered to their strict rule in a period of over three decades. To mark the boundaries of mono ethnic state, regular massacres of Sinhalese and Muslims in boundary villages was a key weapon they used for ethnic cleansing. And to threaten the government and civilians in other areas they used systematic bus and train bombings, suicide bombings etc.(Some external web links contains month specific lists on civilian massacres of Tamil Tigers and according to FBI they killed over 4000 people within a space of two years [3]). With the non inclusion of well sourced List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, inclusion of this list clearly contradicts WP:NPOV and will serve promoting propagandas. Thanks.-- LahiruG talk 06:54, 7 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sri Lanka-related deletion discussions. LahiruG talk 10:32, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 13:11, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 13:11, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:26, 5 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Delete as redundant. Clearly WP:POVFORK and WP:NPOV violation as the contents of this can be included in List of massacres in Sri Lanka. As pointed out by obi2canibe in [Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam], all items in this list can be included in List of massacres in Sri Lanka as was the same case as in List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam and List of attacks attributed to the LTTE. As obi2canibe further stated, separation of the of these two articles may only serve a propaganda purpose. Cossde ( talk) 13:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Keep as per User:Nishadhi. Lapmaster ( talk) 07:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Keep as per User:TF92's forceful and in my mind factual argument that we are not about hiding things on wikipedia if they are facts. Thanks Kanatonian ( talk) 19:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Delete, due to the obvious violation of fundamental neutral point of view (NPOV). SWR2.9 ( talk) 10:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - Stripping aside the ILIKEIT/IDONTLIKEIT phenomenon, this appears to be a well-sourced list about a notable, encyclopedic topic. Carrite ( talk) 15:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per the AFD decision of List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. That too was a well sourced article with valuable information on a notable subject. Some people may love terrorist organizations and enjoy their activities (as it is the case with ISIS these days), because of the violence, brutality and pain they inflict on other fellow human beings, but it is not a reason to allow them to get away with a huge list of massacres. There can't be two different sets of wiki rules applicable here. Maduwanwela ( talk) 16:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Obi2canibe ,TF92 and Carrite. Well sourced list clearly notable. WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a criteria for inclusion or deletion. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 00:11, 12 June 2015 (UTC) reply
So according to you, the policies in English Wikipedia should change as per the will of obi2canibe ? When obi2canibe wanted to delete a list of massacres that he doesn't like, you requested to delete it per obi2canibe and when he wants to keep a similar list of massacres that supports his propaganda, you request to keep it per obi2canibe. Good to know that the opportunistic POV of obi2canibe is more important than even the NPOV, when it comes to 'decision making' in Sri Lankan war related articles. WP:OTHERSTUFF may not be a critical criteria for inclusion or deletion, but a straightforward violation of NPOV is. -- LahiruG talk 08:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and rename This whole conundrum is the result of one user who has moved this article unilaterally and without discussion. Previously the topic was balanced with an article for each side and their attacks attributed to them, List of attacks attributed to Sri Lankan government forces/ List of attacks attributed to the LTTE. However with the move of the former to List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces, a very non NPOV move, some people, including User:LahiruG have felt the need to balance it out. As these acts were carried out on both sides, both sides should be told. This whole issue can be fixed with a simple move to how things were before the unilaterally and undiscussed move. At the moment this article has greatly skewed its NPOV if it continues to exist with its current name. This article is quite liberal in its use of the word massacre and includes things like bombings and riots, which are clearly not massacres. We can remove these but then those events that are not actually massacres are lost. I think the best resolution is to rename this list to "List of civilian attacks attributed to Sri Lankan government forces" as per intended by the creator. In doing this it will balance the scales and POV in regards with List of attacks attributed to the LTTE article and should hopefully satisfy all those seeking to show both sides.-- Blackknight12 ( talk) 08:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC) reply
That's a fair compromise to overcome the POV concerns. If the result is keep, please start a requested move discussion of the talk page so anyone who objects can do so. I will support the move.-- obi2canibe talk contr 14:06, 14 June 2015 (UTC) reply
Perhaps, the "conundrum" is probably plain vengeance on your side. I changed the title after thoroughly presenting the reasons, to which you had no response in the talk page. I can only repeat what I replied earlier. That almost every entry here is a massacre of civilians distinct from combatants. Please find one entry which mentions of a military attack. So the term civilian is indisputable. Quoting Nishadi:
A massacre requires three key elements.
1)perpetrators are government or quasi government agents
2)the victims are individuals who, according to the international rules of war, are not to be killed even if hostilities exist
3)the killings are not the result of any military necessary or threat posed by the victims, but instead, are part of another greater strategy.
Now almost all entries in the list fulfill the above criteria except for maybe a select few, and they are backed by reliable sources for the same. So I guess you need to have more food for thought on changing the title into civilian attack. Your justification for NPOV, is pitiful since I assumed article titles are decided on the basis of content and not one's perception of what is neutral. ---- CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 14:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC) reply
If we are to merge the content into List of massacres in Sri Lanka, we would have to do the same with the content in List of attacks attributed to the LTTE, List of attacks attributed to the LTTE, 1970s, List of attacks attributed to the LTTE, 1980s, List of attacks attributed to the LTTE, 1990s and List of attacks attributed to the LTTE, 2000s in order to avoid List of massacres in Sri Lanka becoming one-sided and POV. This would result in an inordinately long list which would be become a prime candidate for WP:SIZESPLIT.-- obi2canibe talk contr 14:06, 14 June 2015 (UTC) reply
As you know very well, if it is necessary to split an article because of its size, there are so many ways do it without violating key Wikipedia policies, such as NPOV. Having a redundant one-sided list that promotes propaganda is not the solution for it. Once again one part of your comment contradicts with another, because the List of attacks attributed to the LTTE is a good example how WP:SPLIT was applied without violating other policies. By the way, I think your sudden fear of List of massacres in Sri Lanka becoming one-sided and POV, is totally unnecessary, because it includes all the massacres that happened in Sri Lanka without taking any side. Even though a single group is responsible for a big portion of deliberate civilian massacres in Sri Lanka, in my view having a neutral list is the best solution for this issue. -- LahiruG talk 05:29, 15 June 2015 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_civilian_massacres_attributed_to_Sri_Lankan_government_forces&oldid=1136110305"