- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to Family of Joe Biden. To an extent to be determined by editorial consensus. Sandstein 07:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Joseph Biden Sr.
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Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. All of this article is about Joe Biden Sr. in the context of his famous son. No coverage exists to establish WP:GNG independent of his son. – Muboshgu ( talk) 19:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. – Muboshgu ( talk) 19:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. – Muboshgu ( talk) 19:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Does not pass WP:BIO criteria. –– 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 01:10, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
- Comment If deleted, I think all the information here should be moved over to Family of Joe Biden. -- Woko Sapien ( talk) 15:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge to Family of Joe Biden. Not independently notable, and WP:NOTINHERITED runs up the ancestral chain as well as down. BD2412 T 18:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
- Delete If your only claim to notability is that your child was notable, you are not notable. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 18:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge with Family of Joe Biden: Despite my initial leanings being toward keep ("I mean of course we have an article on William Jefferson Blythe Jr.", WP:OTHERSTUFF), I'm now in concurrence that there aren't enough independent sources to prove this passes the relatively low bar for such a figure at WP:GNG. In this case, a merge is preferred to an outright delete. Curbon7 ( talk) 23:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep NOTINHERETED doesn't mean that coverage in context of a different subject doesn't count towards notability, only that you actually do need coverage. This article demonstrates that the subject indeed has coverage significant enough to establish notability - such as
[1]. I don't see a convincing case for how deleting this article does not improve the encyclopedia.
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 05:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
- If a source is only reporting on a subject because of its relation to a notable subject, how is that not a prime example of
WP:NOTINHERETED? Where's the independent coverage of this subject? ––
𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲
talk 05:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- @ FormalDude: the coverage is still independent, that is, independent of the source. Biden Sr. wouldn't be notable if Biden Jr. didn't exist - but Biden Sr. has received significant coverage in reliable sources. If you look at NOTINHERETED, none of the arguments there even begin to approach arguing for the subject passing any notability guideline. I believe Biden Sr. passes GNG, so he is notable - even though the reason for that coverage is due to his relationship to Biden Jr. Elli ( talk | contribs) 09:57, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- Let me quote from the essay -
Individuals in close, personal relationships with famous people (including politicians) can have an independent article even if they are known solely for such a relationship, but only if they pass WP:GNG.
If you don't think Biden Sr. passes GNG, that's one thing - but if he does, even if solely due to his relationship with Biden Jr. - the essay does not discourage having an article on him. Elli ( talk | contribs) 10:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)- I see, that's a good point. WP:INVALIDBIO also explains it well. It would appear to be a question of whether or not there is sufficient significant coverage to pass WP:GNG. –– 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 19:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- If a source is only reporting on a subject because of its relation to a notable subject, how is that not a prime example of
WP:NOTINHERETED? Where's the independent coverage of this subject? ––
𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲
talk 05:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge/redirect to Family of Joe Biden - not independently notable / WP:NOTINHERITED. Ingratis ( talk) 14:26, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge to Family of Joe Biden this guy isn't noted for anything for anything of his own merit (i.e. things that don't involve family affiliations), and notability isn't inherited (as others have mentioned). SNUGGUMS ( talk / edits) 05:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- @ SNUGGUMS: You've explained the exact reason why it also shouldn't be merged. Family of Joe Biden must adhere to WP:BLP policy, and Joseph Biden Sr. does not meet any of the WP:BIO criteria. –– 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 05:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- On the contrary, WP:BIO is about whether people warrant their own pages, and has no restrictions against mentioning them within general family pages. Neither does WP:BLP for that matter as long as the sources used are trustworthy. What I'm saying is we're better off talking about him there than having a separate article. SNUGGUMS ( talk / edits) 05:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- WP:BLP does indeed have restrictions against inherited notability. For example, WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE, WP:BLP1E, and WP:BLPDELETE are all policies that this merge would defy. For that reason, I'm saying this article should be deleted and not merged. –– 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 05:44, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- @ FormalDude: To be clear, are you saying that Family of Joe Biden should make no mention of Biden's father? BD2412 T 02:09, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- @ BD2412: No, just that what is already there now is sufficient enough, and nothing needs to be merged from this article. I think we should just redirect the page to Family of Joe_Biden#Parents. –– 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 02:20, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- At this point I think there's about 80% overlap with what is already there. To the extent that more can be added that is sourced, I'm not seeing a problem. BD2412 T 02:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Fine by me, I'm obviously in the minority. Not trying to hold up the clear consensus to merge at this point. –– 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 09:25, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - it's been a
fairly long consensus that the parents of United States Presidents are notable. If
the consensus has changed I need to see at least four arguments. At worse, it could be merged, but I want to be convinced because this would be a change of consensus since at least 2007. A change in the policy should have a very high standard, and many long-standing editors would have to disagree with me.
Bearian (
talk) 17:17, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
-
Bearian, where is there a consensus that parents of POTUS are notable? What exempts them from GNG? –
Muboshgu (
talk) 17:22, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- You can search it on your own, you know. See, e.g.,
John Adams, Sr,
Thomas Lincoln and
Nancy Hanks Lincoln,
Jesse Root Grant,
Joseph Ruggles Wilson,
James Roosevelt I,
Ida Stover Eisenhower,
Francis A. Nixon,
the biological father of Gerald Ford whose mom left him after 16 days of domestic violence and had so little to do in raising him that Ford took his step-dad's name,
James Earl Carter Sr.,
Jack Reagan,
Prescott Bush,
Talk:Barack_Obama_Sr.,
Hugh Rodham (born 1911),
Frederick Trump, etc.
Bearian (
talk) 17:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Muboshgu, I respect your work here, but deleting this article will upset the apple cart and require a debate, one by one, of 92 articles.
Bearian (
talk) 17:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- I saw the categories Category:Fathers of presidents of the United States and Category:Mothers of presidents of the United States. Many of the fathers of US presidents are notable in their own rights. James Earl Carter Sr, for instance, was a state legislator. Prescott Bush was a US Senator. Barack Obama Sr. has been written about extensively. John Adams and George Bush 41 are not notable for being fathers of presidents for obvious reasons. Also, more than half of the mothers of US presidents don't have articles. So, this is a case by case basis situation, and Joe Biden Sr does not appear to have that much coverage. Deleting this will not result in the deletion of articles that meet notability standards. – Muboshgu ( talk) 18:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- You can search it on your own, you know. See, e.g.,
John Adams, Sr,
Thomas Lincoln and
Nancy Hanks Lincoln,
Jesse Root Grant,
Joseph Ruggles Wilson,
James Roosevelt I,
Ida Stover Eisenhower,
Francis A. Nixon,
the biological father of Gerald Ford whose mom left him after 16 days of domestic violence and had so little to do in raising him that Ford took his step-dad's name,
James Earl Carter Sr.,
Jack Reagan,
Prescott Bush,
Talk:Barack_Obama_Sr.,
Hugh Rodham (born 1911),
Frederick Trump, etc.
Bearian (
talk) 17:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Muboshgu, I respect your work here, but deleting this article will upset the apple cart and require a debate, one by one, of 92 articles.
Bearian (
talk) 17:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
-
Bearian, where is there a consensus that parents of POTUS are notable? What exempts them from GNG? –
Muboshgu (
talk) 17:22, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
In addition to what Muboshgu wrote,
WP:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes mentions nothing about Presidential parents, and trying to use that as a basis for keeping feels like a cheap cop-out when it specifically says This page is not a policy or guideline, and previous outcomes do not bind future ones. Whether other moms/dads of Presidents warrant their own articles is also irrelevant here per WP:WHATABOUTX and therefore not a convincing argument.
SNUGGUMS (
talk /
edits) 18:17, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- @ Muboshgu: your deletion argument seems to imply that coverage of him separate of his relationship with Biden Jr. is necessary. This is not what WP:NOTINHERITED says in any way. Biden Sr. is only known for his relationship to Biden Jr. but that does not mean he is not notable - the sourcing here is decent enough to establish notability. Elli ( talk | contribs) 03:51, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- My initial argument reads too much like that, but I just meant there isn't enough coverage of Biden Sr. for his own article. Parents of POTUS aren't some category that we presume notable, as many parents of POTUS are notable in their own right. Barack Obama Sr is obviously not notable without his son's career, but he's been written about extensively. I don't see that in sourcing of Biden Sr. – Muboshgu ( talk) 15:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwaiiplayer ( talk) 12:05, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwaiiplayer ( talk) 12:05, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge or at least redirect to Family of Joe Biden -- as per others, especially WP:NOTINHERITED. Used references are also in majority connected with Joe Biden Jr. Doesn't seem notable to me as an independent article.-- Melaleuca alternifolia | talk 15:20, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge to Family of Joe Biden I have not seen enough independent coverage to warrant an article. -- Enos733 ( talk) 16:56, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge to Family of Joe Biden. I don't see WP:NOTINHERITED as being particularly relevant here since, for better or for worse, Biden Sr. has indeed received coverage in reliable sources sufficient to meet the GNG. (The coverage in the NYT, the Independent, etc. makes that clear.) But notability is not a guarantee that a stand-alone article is appropriate: per WP:NOPAGE, it may be better to merge the information to a page where additional background and context can be provided. Since (as appears to be uncontested) Biden Sr. has only received sigcov because of his son, it's far better to merge this article into a broader one, allowing for him to be situated in context instead of isolating him in the abstract. In other words, this is a case where "other information" and "related topics" "provide needed context": discussing the impact of Biden's family on him is best done in a single location, where all relevant events and family members can be considered holistically. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 03:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect to Family of Joe Biden. I would say merge, but all the worthwhile information seems to already be present at the target article. TompaDompa ( talk) 23:47, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.