The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ‑Scottywong | [chat] || 07:28, 28 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Jennifer Steinman

Jennifer Steinman (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Fails WP:NFILMMAKER and WP:GNG. There is decent coverage of Desert Runners but there exists basically no coverage of Steinman herself and notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. I was unable to find any significant, independent, reliable sources covering Steinman. W 42 02:07, 1 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. W 42 02:07, 1 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. W 42 02:07, 1 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Steinman has worked on a number of films that have each gotten notable recognition from prestigious film festivals. This article, though lean, provides more references and more awards than most filmmaker stubs. SJTatsu ( talk) 18:07, 1 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Steinman can make 100 films, but the purpose of a biographical article is to provide information about the individual -- not their films. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 21:03, 1 September 2020 (UTC) reply

• Support deletion. As of this writing there are a total of 16 citations. Only 2 are about the person Jennifer Steinman: an interview with her, and about the development of a film by her ("Interview with Desert Runner's Jennifer Steinman". MtnMeister; "Film sees grieving U.S. moms in Africa learning new way to mourn". SFGate.). Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 21:03, 1 September 2020 (UTC); edited [reason: forgot to specify], 02:23, 25 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Per your critique, more citations and more biographical information have now been added SJTatsu ( talk) 06:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC). reply

Remove the overload of citations about films and we will see exactly how many citations are about the individual (aside from the interview with Steinman about the film, I counted 2 more citations about Desert Runners; 3 citations for Time for Ilhan; 3 citations for She Started It; 2 ciations for Sunny Side, one in Spanish; then there are the citations for festival announcements and lineups, and film awards). The totality of the article has little to do with the purpose of a biographical article: information about an individual's early life, education, career, and personal life. If you need guidance on how to create a biographical article, see for example: Mari Asato, Barbara Hammer, Avigail Sperber, Lucy Walker. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 11:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Hi. I was going to add Ms. Steinman's Ted Talk (which incorporates very personal information along with filmmaking), and saw the deletion page. I looked at Maria Asato's page and it has almost no biographical information beyond one line. Ms. Hammer's page similarly has three lines of biographic information, two of which contain info about filmmaking. I want very much to be inline with expectations when I add to this page. Am I missing something? Many thanks. Championable ( talk) 17:39, 8 September 2020 (UTC) reply

"Ms. Hammer's page similarly has three lines of biographic information. What are you talking about? Barbara Hammer's bio includes "Life and career", "Awards", "Style and reception", "Grant", "Feminist and lesbian works impact", "Illness, right to die activism, and death", "Filmography", and "Retrospectives". There's a huge difference between content that addresses a filmmaker's style, history, and influential films she is known for -- and content about films 1, 2, 3, 4, etc, by a filmmaker. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:25, 13 September 2020 (UTC) reply

Hi again! I apologies if it came across as a comparison of the whole article. I promise it was not. Rather, I was referring to specific purely biographical info that was not related to her work. I definitely don't want to diminish the importance and impact of Ms. Hammer. One thing of note I was thinking about is that Ms. Hammer's page was started in 2005, and has been developing over the last decade and a half. If you look at the first version of Ms. Hammer's article, it was 186 words, and developed over the next 15 years. With that said, I respect everything you are saying and am just discussing in a normal tone (I won't use emojis though.)

Respectfully, I also checked Samantha Gash's page (star of Desert Runners) along with several other filmmakers, and I don't see the biographical information. I love Desert Runners and was inspired by Gash's journey and Steinman's parenting story in her Ted Talk (which I will add to here), but I respectfully wanted to say that there are many recent pages without the information you are requesting. With that said, I shall make it a mission :) to find what you requested. Thank you! Championable ( talk) 18:38, 8 September 2020 (UTC) reply

• delete Most of the interviews are conducted by joe schmoes, including the one referenced in lede. Graywalls ( talk) 20:27, 17 September 2020 (UTC) reply
• Keep I could call out Rich Roll as a very well known interviewer,but I believe the work of the others is legitimate, and shouldn't be dismissed. Championable ( talk) 01:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC) reply
• Keep She qualifies as notable as a creative professional. "The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." She is an independent filmmaker. Her film Desert Runners got significant mainstream coverage. The rest of her coverage is consistent with being an independent filmmaker. Besides, she is midcareer and likely to continue to produce other films of note. SJTatsu ( talk) 01:28, 18 September 2020 (UTC) reply

• Weak Delete I was really wanting to vote keep on this, but I can't in good conscious with the current state of the sourcing. While I think her films have gotten some coverage, it doesn't seem to "significant mainstream coverage" as implied. Even for her film Desert Runners. Which only has three film critic reviews on Rotten Tomatoes that are kind of fringe film websites. The lack of good sourcing about her films aside, ultimately for a biographical article to be notable there should be some sources discussing the person that it is about and not just their films. There isn't much about her personally though. So, it doesn't stand biographical article. Let alone does it get a pass because of her films. That said, I think a case could made that Desert Runners is notable enough for an article about it. Since there is some, although likely subpar, reviews of it. Although, that's a different matter then this AfD, but at least it's something. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 08:05, 19 September 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete. The criterion cited by SJTatsu is so poorly-written that it is constantly misinterpreted and misused and it drives me mental. The point of that criterion isn't that anyone who ever wrote a book or made a film that hits GNG by dint of having a few reviews on release is therefore automatically also notable. The bar is higher - the work should be "significant" or "well-known", ie, it is known in its field past being routinely reviewed on release. I see no indication that Steinman's one notable film hits that bar, so the criterion shouldn't apply. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 19:48, 27 September 2020 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.