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See also, Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Jan Goossenaerts#Summarization of comments without nonsense
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus Mandsford 03:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC) reply

Jan Goossenaerts

Jan Goossenaerts (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log) • Afd statistics
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He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country. Fails WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 16:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply

  • Delete couldn't find anything of use in google news. Secret account 16:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. -- Jujutacular  talk 17:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep hes a supercentenarian, and hes been the oldest man in the country for years, and if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country. Longevitydude ( talk) 18:12, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • Being the oldest verified man in a continent is notable, and I know some people who have access to other articles about him. Longevitydude ( talk) 18:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • Why is it notable to be 100? Why not 97? Why not 103? Even the Lists of centenarians says you need to be notable for something other than being old to be included. This guy is old. So? The youngest person in Europe was born 0.0004 seconds ago. SO?? — Timneu22 · talk 18:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
        • Hes a SUPERcentenarian, hes at least 110, that was a list of centenarians, not 110+ year olds, and being the oldest man in a continent is notable. The article is because hes the oldest man in Europe, not just because of his age. Longevitydude ( talk) 19:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
          • Did it say, other than being oldEST, this guy is the continent's oldEST verified man. Longevitydude ( talk) 19:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
            • So, simply being alive is notable? Certainly that doesn't fit under WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 19:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
              • He's notable for reaching age 110, alive or not. Ryoung122 23:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
                • According to a recent physical, I'm alive. But I'm definitely not notable. So that can't be it. David in DC ( talk) 19:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
                  • You're not 110, either. Ryoung122 23:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
                    • Where is the magic number for notable ages listed? Why not 82? 32? 4? 71? — Timneu22 · talk 18:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. The logic for inclusion is faulty. Someday--perhaps very soon--this man will die. He will then no longer be the oldest person within a given geographical area. What will be the justification for the article THEN? The even less notable "He USED to be the oldest person within a given geographical area"? Or "Here lie the bones of a guy who was briefly non-notable for being the oldest person in a geographical area"? He is not sufficiently notable now, and the moment he dies he becomes completely non-notable. Let's not wait till then. Let's delete it now, because we're only going to have to delete it later. True notability is not something that expires with death. Qworty ( talk) 19:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
There were articles about him before he became a supercentenarian, so don't talk about one event hes had coverage for his birthdays way before 110, and the other event is becoming the oldest man in the continent. Longevitydude ( talk) 19:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
How is Being the oldest any less notable then being the tallest, shortest, or heaviest? their all in guinness world records Longevitydude ( talk) 19:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
Guinness is a reliable source. But it is not a guarantor of notability. Guinness has its standards for notability. We have ours. They are not coterminous. The tallest, shortest or heaviest person ever might be notable for our purposes. The current tallest, shortest or heaviest person in Europe? Not so much. David in DC ( talk) 20:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply
If notability is lost when people die, then Michael Jackson isn't notable either. Ryoung122 23:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I believe there's no policy or guideline that decrees that being the oldest man in (or perhaps on) a continent is, per se, notable. I've occasionally believed six impossible things before breakfast, so I could be wrong. If I am, please show me where to look. (Interesting, but probably not dispositive, is the fact that one of the "impossible things" in the White Queen's oration to Alice is a claim to be a centenarian.)
We edit articles one at a time hereabouts, so I'm not sure that "...if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country" is particularly relevant. One need not delete speedily if an article about a living person doesn't include unsourced derogatory information, and I don't think anyone's contending that a longevity claim is derogatory, so we've got an eternity to deal with these other pages.
I'm inclined to agree that the quoted language from the centenarian list ought to apply to super-centenarians (and even super-duper-centenarians), as well. But we need not reach that far to resolve this case. All we need do is determine if being the oldest man in Europe, absent any other special, reliable, verifiable characteristics or achievements, is sufficiently notable to warrant an article on en.wikipedia. Per nom, I think not. David in DC ( talk) 19:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC) reply

Comment. I think this article and any others like it, including the links provided from other AfDs above, should be deleted without a redirect, and the name of the person (and any one- or two-sentence blurb about them) should be on the list page. I think we need a policy for this type of person, who is clearly not otherwise notable. Let the person be searched for in some results, but no reason to keep a redirect to the page. — Timneu22 · talk 11:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply

  • Lets not call other people ugly names, and lets not cuss, that just makes your side look weak, attack the arguements, not the person. Longevitydude ( talk) 13:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • Please show me where I attacked a user. — Timneu22 · talk 14:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • well since you said please: you said It's a fucking typo. Get over yourself. (Comments redacted. Wifione ....... Leave a message 10:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)), and shes not even part of the discussion. Longevitydude ( talk) 14:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
        • Please show me where I attacked a user. I didn't. I commented on a fucking typo. The Sarah Palin link was a joke (since she thinks Africa is a country). Dude, lighten up. — Timneu22 · talk 14:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
          • I need to lighten up, sir im not the one cussing up a storm, and if I remember correctly, obama thinks theres 57 states. Longevitydude ( talk) 14:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
            • My comment was related, since I was being accused of calling Europe a country. Your comment about Obama is simply to do what? Anyhow, let's get back on topic. Old people belong on lists, not with individual articles. They aren't notable. — Timneu22 · talk 14:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
              • (Comments redacted. Wifione ....... Leave a message 10:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)) reply
                • Thanks, dude. — Timneu22 · talk 14:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
                  • your welcome, my obama comment was to show that hes no smarter than you make palin out to be Longevitydude ( talk) 15:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
                    • I don't think this sub-discussion could get any more off topic. I agree that it does make sense to have some guidelines formulated to deal with these AfDs, just like we have tried to do with bilateral relations articles (without success), public school articles (keep all verified high schools, generally redirect middle/elementary schools to district articles), etc. The fact is, when an article is only one sentence, it makes more sense as a matter of organization to include that information in a larger article and create a redirect. Someone who happens to read about this guy may also be interested in other Belgian/European supercentenarians. The number of readers searching only for this person will not be many.-- Milowent • talk blp-r 16:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete because he just recently became a supercentenarian. He isn't like Frederica Sagor Maas, who, now validated, has been recognized by other sources rather than just her nearby/local newspaper. -- Nick Ornstein ( talk) 15:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • Hes known for something other than being a male supercentenarian, hes the oldest verified man in the continent, how is that not notable. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • We understand your position. You don't need to reply to everyone's "delete" vote. — Timneu22 · talk 17:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I just listed an article that has more information on him. Longevitydude ( talk) 18:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep because male supercentenarians are already very rare Petervermaelen 18:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: The nom's very much in error. The text of the GNG is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Supercentenarians provoke a LOT of articles and news stories about them. Want to bet I can't find at least several articles in reliable sources about him? He's only the fifth living male supercentenarian in the world. Heck, he only has to make it a few more months to crack the top 100 of the oldest verified men in recorded history. That's not notable?  Ravenswing  18:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • Comment: Ravenswing has a good point about WP:GNG, in his second sentence above. However, I think it's answered in the last bullet of that policy: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not. David in DC ( talk) 20:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment:
    • http://www.rtlinfo.be/info/belgique/societe/748989/essen-celebre-l-homme-le-plus-age-d-europe
      • I don't read french. Does this say anything besides the fact that he's currently the oldest man in Europe? As I've said above, I don't believe there's any guidline or policy that says being the current oldest man on a continent confers per se notability. I asked for guidance to find such a guideline or policy. None has been mentioned yet. David in DC ( talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • just get an account on http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/ and youll find more information on him, and a lot more articles, try it. Longevitydude ( talk) 19:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • A yahoo group? Why should it matter what it says there? There are lots of yahoogroups. They can be centered on a nearly infinite number of topics that are notable to the self-selected members of that group. And if the members of a such a yahoo group, no matter how eminent they may be in their own minds or the minds of others, can successfully band together to teach the world about their particular interest niche, and accrete whatever it is they find notable into wikipedia, regardless of WP:GNG, we have a much bigger problem than this one article. That bigger problem should be addressed elsewhere. But in the meantime, let's stick with reliable sources and refrain from recruiting people to join a yahoo group and become enlightened. David in DC ( talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • heres some videos
    • yes he has gotten coverage for years. Longevitydude ( talk) 19:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • Again, I don't understand the language. Do these say anything more than that this subject is the current oldest man in Europe and that he's got a couple generations of progeny? Without more, my editorial judgment is that this does not meet WP:GNG David in DC ( talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • would http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_World%27s_Oldest_People this website count as good guidelines? Longevitydude ( talk) 19:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • Heck, no. "[T]his website" is a yahoo group that's morphed itself into a wiki-project, complete with talk page discussions about who the project's leader is and how its purpose is to advance knowledge about old people, (rather than, for instance, to build an encyclopedia). "[T]his website" is a symptom of the bigger problem I mentioned above. Discussions about it belong elsewhere, and, are indeed taking place elsewhere. Let's just stick with the root question raised by this AfD - Is being the current oldest man in Europe, without more, enough to establish notability on en.wikipedia. Not in Guinness. Not in the view of a yahoo group. Not in the view of a band of wikipedia editors who've founded a wiki-project to advance education about their own particularistic niche topic. But, rather, under the clear language of WP:GNG. Editors may differ, in good faith, about the answer to this question. It's a matter of editorial judgment about how WP:GNG applies to this specific subject. David in DC ( talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • Please keep the false attacks to a minimum. The WOP group on Yahoo didn't "morph" into anything. Someone on Wikipedia created the WP:WOP, but the WOP group on Yahoo still exists. One can be a member of the Wiki group without being a member of the Yahoo group, or vice versa.
      • Also, the WOP group on Yahoo was founded in 2002, but we have media coverage of supercentenarians going back decades and even centuries and even millennia. St. Paul of Thebes allegedly lived to 113. Oh, and he's in an encyclopedia, which noted his claimed age. Ryoung122 00:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
        • I assure you thats where the best information will come from, and how dare anyone remove a source I posted that had information about Jan, Idontlikeit is not a reason to delete an article. Longevitydude ( talk) 13:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
          • I posted the translated version of an article and someone removed it.So don't complain that you can't speak French. Longevitydude ( talk) 13:58, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
            • Please review these edits, and their accompanying edit summaries. [5], [6], [7]. David in DC ( talk) 15:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
              • I posted the translated version of the article so those who can't speak French could read it, I did everything I could to cite the sources, but IT STILL HAD A PROBLEM EVERYTIME! And some of those edits werent mine. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
              • Even when I felt the same way about certain articles that you did you still had problems with my arguements. Longevitydude ( talk) 14:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep/Merge The article has the potential to meet Wikipedia standards if reliable sources are used - they do exist. As it stands, the article is very poor. I think nominating the article for deletion a mere 20 minutes after its creation has not helped the matter. If the article isn't improved, then I would have to say redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians until the article meets Wikipedia standards. SiameseTurtle ( talk) 14:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • The problem is the article was never given a chance to be improved, if supercentenarians are not notable, they why do so many people think so, who is anyone to tell us what we should consider notable, all we do is ask others to respect our views on what we consider notable, we don't make afds on what you consider notable, so please don't do it to us. Longevitydude ( talk) 14:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • OK, im calm now, but seriously, five refs, I know there have been more in the past that just cant be found, but still, thats a reasonable amount, but learn to have respect for other peoples opinions of notability, you dont see the GRG making afds for stuff that you think is notable that they dont care about, is a little consideration too much to ask? Longevitydude ( talk) 15:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep/Merge per SimaeseTurtle. It looks like the general notability guideline is met, unless someone can explain how WP:BASIC indicates it does not meet notability. -- Bsherr ( talk) 16:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • WP:GNG creates a presumption. The final bullet in WP:GNG makes the presumption rebuttable. It gives exactly the reason for rebuting the presumption that this article presents. Please see this earlier comment and review the interplay the last bullet of WP:GNG describes between the presumption and WP:NOT. David in DC ( talk) 18:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Strong delete or redirect if there ever was one. The assumption of WP:WOP is that having turned 110 and held a regional title, which is conferred basically by Yahoo WOP, which contains a vast membership overlap with WP:WOP, makes one notable. No, it makes one notable for line-item inclusion in lists. Goossenaerts is already in five WP lists, with which a "bio" article (what bio?) would be wholly redundant (there is nothing to merge!). My basic view is that a supercentenarian becomes article-notable (not at age 110 but) when there is enough interest in something other about her or him than just being 110 (otherwise, via WP:BLP1E, they should be redirected to a base list, i.e., list of living supercentenarians). There are many more problems that do not have time or place for discussion now, but some of them appear at WP:FTN#Longevity-cruft, WP:COIN#User:Ryoung122 on Longevity myths, and Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-01-04/Longevity myths. — John J. Bulten — continues after insertion below
The problem is YOU. You have been campaigning against articles on supercentenarians, using smear tactics (you say I don't understand statistics, but you are the one that believes in 950-year-olds), recruiting Grismaldo and Itsmejudith time and again.
How about some FACTS:
1. The WOP does NOT give out titles such as "oldest in Europe." However, that can be referenced to NEWS sources (whether true or not...Wikipedia standards are verifiability, not truth).
2. Notability isn't established by your opinion, it's established by outside sources.
3. "Longevity cruft" is a POV-pejorative. Scientists study longevity, including supercentenarians, and the media covers them.
4. I actually agreed with five of the seven articles you listed for deletion. The List of Oldest Living Men should have been kept (4-3 in favor of keep), as well as "Oldest veterans." That you are pushing to delete generalized lists shows your problems with this run deeper than just whether this man is individually notable or not. Ryoung122 00:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply

(JJB continues comments hidden by Ryoung122's WP:TALK violation:) While this is not the typical situation of WP:SPAs voting, WP:WOP has been documented as suffering from views contrary to WP basics in very similar (but much more entrenched) ways. Longevitydude and SiameseTurtle are WP:WOP members and Brendanology and Petervermaelen meet the basic criteria of WOP SPAs. I will now notify the two FTN editors and the WP:WOP talk page. JJB 20:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Siamese Turtle is a lot brilliant than you, JJ. It is actually YOUR views, not our views, that are contrary to science. Since you have ZERO chance of succeeding with your religious arguments in the scientific field, you have chosen to bully teens (like LongevityDude, Brendanology, and Nick Ornstein) and push your POV bias on Wikipedia, where "anyone can edit"...including complete idiots. Ryoung122 00:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply

(JJB picks up again:) My additional factors: "Oldest verified" excludes a large number of unverified European supercentenarian longevity claims as if GWR verification is the only POV necessary, when in fact many parts of the world simply do not have a way of documenting most of their people to GWR standards. Similarly, the solicitation that we join Yahoo WOP in order to verify hidden webcruft is plainly anti-WP; WP:V requires that any citations to Yahoo WOP can be tagged to "request quotation", and there are a junkyardful of such citations in the topic articles. Further, one reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure. David's later comments about WP:WOP are right on target, and then Longevitydude admits the conflatability WP:WOP and GRG, and the accessibility of WP to GRG, by saying "you dont see the GRG making afds". Thus not only are the arguments a failure, they are carried out by multiple COI edits. The closer had better not wimp out with "NCDK". JJB 20:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

More false charges and attempted intimidation. Jan Goosenaerts's articles are NOT sourced from the GRG or from the WOP. They come from Belgium.
But more than that, you should stick to your own arguments. Saying that the other people's arguments are a "failure" is POV bias at least.
But more than that, this statement crosses the line of acceptability:
The closer had better not wimp out with "NCDK".
Excuse you, please get off your high horse. You are not "God". Now you are attempting to intimidate the closer's decision about this debate. That's unconscionable.
Do you consider the effect of your actions on others? You are pushing non-scientific POV's on a general encyclopedia that lots of kids read. Wikipedia is NOT a political campaign. Go back to AlterNetDaily. Speaking of "fringe," it's called "alter" net because it supports fringe views, like yours. Ryoung122 00:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - Being the oldest person in a country does not guarantee notability. This is one of many trivial entries here that relate to human longevity that ought to get the axe. It is pure trivia and the obsession of a group of hobbyists, but there is nothing encyclopedic about it. Griswaldo ( talk) 21:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - Since it seems like common outcomes of these types of articles is to delete, as indicated by the Oldest People talk page, why would this one be different? I'm not talking about WP:OTHERSTUFF here, I'm talking about common outcomes. We really need a policy for this type of article. — Timneu22 · talk 22:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • Comment While I fully agree, that's a discussion for another, as yet created, page. Here, we're just called upon to decide if Jan Goossenaerts is notable. Once we're done (or contemporaneously if someone is so moved,) someone can propose an addition to WP:OUTCOMES. This page is about one tree. The forest can and should be considered by a larger part of the community, in a more visible way than a single AfD about the oldest man on (or perhaps in) Europe. David in DC ( talk) 23:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - Possessing a superlative trait (eg oldest man, tallest human, etc.) is not a concept of notability of itself because that is just a happenstance for that person at the time and place of interest and who else living or dead has been there. This is not to say that this trait cannot lead to other notable facets, which Walter Breuning (mostly) demostrates - his age led him to become notable, but that was, in part, due to living in America as opposed to other areas of the world where media coverage is zero to nil (eg the middle of rural China) but also from having done some somewhat notable aspects during his life. Jan G. here doesn't seem to have any of that reported in secondary sources, so this is just a happenstance. -- MASEM ( t) 22:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Simply being very old does not make one notable. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E both certainly apply here. Reso lute 00:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. He's old. We got it. We also dont give a fuck. Not notable per everyone. Carolyn Baker III ( talk) 04:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep because he has significant independent coverage in multiple reliable sources and so meets the WP:GNG, and WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because there is no "event". Thparkth ( talk) 12:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • "Multiple reliable sources"? Are you looking at the same entry as everyone else? Griswaldo ( talk) 18:24, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • The article I'm looking at links to coverage in several sources, among them Voice of Russia, RTL, and Sud Presse. Thparkth ( talk) 19:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Thparkth. First off, awesome user name dude. I didn't figure it out unti I tried to type it out. Then all wath revealed. On to business, please review JJB's earlier explanation of why four of the 5 sources are all mirrirs of one another. In pertinent part, he says: "[O]ne reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure." David in DC ( talk) 21:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • In my opinion, the key point is that four different reliable sources have taken the editorial decision to run this story - and that creates a presumption of notability for me. (The fifth source, somewhat confusingly, appears to be a political party.) Thparkth ( talk) 21:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply

In response to what someone said earlier, nothing makes a side look weak like attacking the person instead of the arguement, or cussing, something to think about. Longevitydude ( talk) 19:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply

  • Keep The topic is notable because it is covered in detail in numerous reliable sources and so passes WP:GNG. The opinions above that extreme age is not notable are expressing a personal opinion rather than following the guideline and so violating core policy. Colonel Warden ( talk) 23:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Umm, as I've said, reasonable editors can differ about whether the presumption set up by the first several bullets of WP:GNG control or whether the final bullet of WP:GNG, setting up the terms for rebutting the presumption, controls. But we're talking about the same guideline. Neither view violates WP:NPOV. David in DC ( talk) 23:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • It appears that you wish to determine this matter based upon your own POV as to whether extreme age is notable. This is unacceptable as you are not a reliable source - you are just a random passerby with no special standing. The point of the guideline is to determine such matters by reference to independent third parties rather than taking a poll of whoever shows up at AFD. Your position violates multiple policies including WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:CENSOR. Colonel Warden ( talk) 00:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • I fail to see the RS argument here. These sources are virtually mirrors of one another, which another editor has pointed out above. Also, trivia is published in newspapers in various forms and at various times to make the readers feel all warm and cozy inside but that's not what an encyclopedia does. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and certainly not the society section of one. I don't see your position as any less of an opinion than that of David. Cheers. Griswaldo ( talk) 02:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Respectable newspapers are commonly used as sources on Wikipedia and are quite satisfactory for establishing notability because their professional status and reputation indicate the independent and reliable nature of the interest in the topic. In this case, they include Gazet van Antwerpen and De Standaard which seem quite adequate for our purposes. The opinions of individual editors here are quite worthless by comparison and there is not the slightest policy basis for accepting them instead. AFD is not a vote and editors are expected to bring evidence to the discussion, not their personal opinions. Colonel Warden ( talk) 12:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
Good ah point Colonel. I am going to think about re-evaluating my opinion now. I see the loggic in this, Thank you, Carolyn Baker III ( talk) 00:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply

Keep or Merge.

I see several problems/issues with the "deletionist" arguments.

1. Notability is established by outside sources, not your personal opinion (Carolyn).

2. Some have said that persons cannot be notable for "old age" alone.

Yet if we run a Google search on news for "Eugenie Blanchard" we get more than 600 main articles in English, as well as other languages. So, that's a false argument.

Instead, the argument should be: "at what point does someone become notable for age"?

3. "Notability is not temporary." This is a poor argument. That is used for incidental, one-cycle news reports. But someone who is the "oldest man" in their nation, they have the title every day. And when they die, they are recorded as the titleholder. That's not temporary.

Do we say that, since George Kell won a batting title decades ago, he was notable in 1949 but not now? Also, we have every major league baseball player ever listed as "notable," coverage or not. Ryoung122 23:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC) reply

  • Weak keep- Notability is measured entirely by the sources. Enough reliable, secondary sources that discuss the subject in detail enable an article to be written. Now, this guy probably comes in at the low end of the coverage but it's OK in my opinion. That said, three of the sources are nearly identical copies of each other. Reyk YO! 00:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Timneu22, your comments have been extremely inappropriate, including calling your misspelling of "supercentenarian" a "fucking typo". And let's not forget your denying attacking users. Your comments are detrimental to both your image and this discussion. Please stop. Brendan ( talk, contribs) 03:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • I haven't commented on this for a long time, and I never attacked a user. You seem to care about my image far more than I do. It was a fucking typo. What's the damn big deal? And on further inspection, it's been two days since I commented on this thing, and no comment was "inappropriate". Unbelievable that you'd single my comments out. Two days ago! Sheesh. Irrelevant. — Timneu22 · talk 04:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • I don't see any personal attacks either. Reyk YO! 12:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep This guy scrapes the criteria, but scrape it still is. Brendan ( talk, contribs) 03:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Those that argue that this passes the GNG need to show that significant coverage in secondary sources has been met. There is coverage, and there are sources, but that coverage is not significant (I would expect a bio and what contributions he has made to society, for example), and the sources are not secondary (they are third-party, sufficient for WP:V, but give no insight, analysis, or synthesis that one would expect from secondary sources; the articles simply say "he's old, he lives here". -- MASEM ( t) 14:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply

Discussion continues

  • Keep.for respect for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.227.30.79 ( talk) 20:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC) — 94.227.30.79 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
  • Comment: The above two are evidence of WP:CANVASSING. A previous serious charge of canvassing from a private list in a similar (merge) discussion occurs here. (I have also been accused of canvassing via a statement above, but the difference is that I informed everyone I was doing it and I notified two editors on one side and one workgroup on the other side.) JJB 20:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Comment. I have no idea who those anonymous edits are from. That said, canvassing ON-WIKI is a violation of Wiki rules and within Wiki-jurisdiction. Posting material on a third-party site is not...it's outside Wikipedia. But in any case, that was a post regarding Longevity myths, not Jan Goossenaerts. 76.17.118.157 ( talk) 01:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • I'm going to assume 76.17 is Ryoung122 due to style without trying to remember which IPs he uses regularly, and I will accordingly accept this as an admission of the former canvass on the merge discussion and an attempted denial of canvassing in this discussion; so I am striking my charge. JJB 12:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. Someone can be notable simply for being very old, in which case there will be plenty of coverage in the media. In this case there is only a small amount of coverage. If in time there is more coverage then the article can be re-created. Itsmejudith ( talk) 21:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. WP:GNG should control, not sentiment or WP:CRUFTCRUFT. I respect arguments that the existing cited coverage is not significant, but I disagree with them; the cites provide enough material to source a passable article from, which seems to me the most natural standard to use. — chaos5023 ( talk) 02:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Yes, the article is quite short, but I can see great potential for it to be improved. It is, in any case, a tad too long for a merged section as it has more information than any of the other living Belgian supercentenarians. Brendan ( talk, contribs) 07:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Another summary: Deletion/merge arguments:
    • WP:BASIC, as all articles but one arise from one insubstantial GRG-quoting nonindependent wire copy.
    • WP:IINFO: citing what people eat for breakfast is generally an indicator of nonnotability.
    • Trivial intersection ( compare): [oldest] [living] [verified] [male] [in-continent]. Previous merge consensus.
    • Significant WP:BIAS against several living Europeans who claim to be 110 but happen to lack three proximate documents.
    • Notability misstated, as we are told repeatedly "oldest" (which is disputed by above unverifieds) instead of "oldest verified".
    • No consistent WP:OUTCOMES formed by workgroup yet (line-item notability, thus merge, would be consistent).
    • Merge/redir is better consensus, allowed by Brendanology, Bsherr, Clarityfiend, Ryoung122, SiameseTurtle, and deleters.
    • Rebuttable presumption: "still doesn't seem notable given the sources" is valid consensus.
    • WP:CRYSTAL, as several argue that he will definitely become more notable. Call us when so.
    • WP:V, as we've been directed to inaccessible Yahoo WOP as a source.
    • WP:NOTNEWS speaks for itself.
    • WP:COI, WP:WALLEDGARDEN, WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:SPA.
  • Retention arguments:
    • WP:IHN; but if unsourced it would be an automatic delete, so it fails that.
    • WP:GNG; but of 5 links in article, 3 are identical, 1 is mirror, 1 is questionable.
    • Not one event; but coverage prior to 110 is only local Belgian, i.e., not continentally notable.
    • WP:RS exist; but it is the WP:BURDEN of the claimants to insert.
    • Such an astonishing variety of trivial illogic as to be left as an exercise for the reader. JJB 14:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
    Y'know, there's enough valid consensus in favor of a delete that you really didn't have to construct such a violently slanted "summary", and in my eyes doing so damages your position. I'm particularly unimpressed by the grasping at straws in dismissing sources that are merely "local Belgian". There's some consensus that "local news" sources generate lesser weight toward notability, but that consensus is in regard to e.g. community newspapers of Pothole, Idaho, not Belgium. — chaos5023 ( talk) 16:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete/Merge no inherent notability in age.-- TM 14:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • I think some of the editors who want to delete this article are bias and assume bad faith, and I suspect meat, not sock, puppetry with JJB and a few of the others who want this article gone. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
It is funny that you would accuse me of being a meatpuppet when I have been on Wikipedia approximately 3.5 years longer than you. Grow up and stop insulting others and accusing them of bad faith because this article was nominated for deletion.-- TM 04:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC) reply
Sir, at least im grown up enough not to be using foul language, and the reasons for deletion don't sound like good faith, and neither does making an afd for a less than 20 minute old article. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • That's a very funny accusation seeing as the bulk of keep voters probably belong to the same gerontology yahoo group that seems to coordinate wikipedia editing. The irony is blinding. Griswaldo ( talk)
      • All we ask is that you please respect our views on what is notable and that you don't inflict your differences on us, we dont nominate articles you are interested in just because they don't mean anything to us, please return the favor. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
        • This leaves me virtually speechless. I wish I could quote box it and place it at the top of the AfD because the rationale is so against policy and the basic concept of what an encyclopedia it that it literally takes you breath. We're not here to trade favors in order to retain non-notable trivia. If I created or contributed to such work myself I would expect you to have it deleted. Unbelievable. Griswaldo ( talk) 15:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
          • Whats unbelievable is that you don't let people have their own interests, you thin kthat just because your not interested that no one should be allowed to be interested in it, notability is in the eye of the beholder, don't tell the beholer that he can't have his own interests and definition of notability. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
            Well, the reason Wikipedia in general does not adopt a "whatever one individual feels is notable is notable" standard is that this is effectively the same as having no standard of notability at all. — chaos5023 ( talk) 16:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
            • People should be allowed to be interested in whatever they want, let them decide notability for themselves and let other people have their own interests, wikipedia will have more viewers if their are more articles, deleting them makes wikipedia less famous, people want information and why will they waste their time at a place that doesnt have the information they are searching for. Longevitydude ( talk) 16:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
              Yes, this is the radical inclusionist position regarding Wikipedia content. It is not accepted by the community at large, which contrariwise holds that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and I am afraid that you are not going to be able to change this project-wide consensus within this deletion discussion. — chaos5023 ( talk) 16:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • I forgot to add that the article seems to be well written now and it has sufficient coverage, and some of JJB's reasons as far as policys might be missinterpreted. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Timneu22 and Griswaldo have nailed this. Dude, why don't you comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People#Notability so that other editors know what "our views on what is notable" are? Since your edit summary mentioned "foul play", I think it relevant to repeat that Itsmejudith, Griswaldo, and David in DC all arrived at this topic set due to a posting by Dougweller at WP:FTN, which they watch, and have nothing to do with me other than the public collaboration inherent in my mediation with IMJ. I think they are also interested in counteracting the longtime COI issues the other editors allude to. Why don't you work on those please, such as:
    • Having Yahoo WOP coordinators pledge how to handle their COI
    • Floating proposals for fixing the repeatedly found extant COI edits
    • Finding all citations to Yahoo WOP and replacing with accessible reliable sources
    • Removing all allegations and implications that living people are lying about their ages
    • Making public at WP:WOP which editors are also on Yahoo WOP and which do what within e-group GRG
  • Sorry for the off-topic, but you're only aligning the editors further against you. JJB 15:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Your new source and your misstatement of the trivia-section guideline when the whole article is trivia do not add anything new to my summary above. JJB 15:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
    • If your gonna split hairs, everything is trivia about something else, and my link was to show that he had coverage over two years ago, this is nothing new. Longevitydude ( talk) 15:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Weak delete – I have to agree with Masem here. Most of the sources are the same identical press release. There is only one secondary source out there which has maybe a paragraph of information. In my view, it doesn't meet our minimal notability standard. – MuZemike 15:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Why does the list of what wikipedia is not, leave out that its not considered a reliable souce, perhaps because anyone can edit and remove information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Longevitydude ( talk • contribs) 16:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://essen.cdenv.be/Nieuwsbericht.4954.0.html%3F%26no_cache%3D1%26tx_ttnews%255BpS%255D%3D1191189600%26tx_ttnews%255BpL%255D%3D2681999%26tx_ttnews%255Barc%255D%3D1%26tx_ttnews%255Btt_news%255D%3D8804%26tx_ttnews%255BbackPid%255D%3D3648&ei=CSPYTKW7Koyr8Aa1qdSdDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CD4Q7gEwCA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djan%2Bgoossenaerts%2B107%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive a translated article of his 107th birthday, with information about him. Longevitydude ( talk) 16:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: I'm disappointed to report that this edit history contains 5 "new section" edits that do, IMHO, meet the definition of WP:CANVASSING as being simultaneously excessive, biased, partisan, and secret. Sorry 'dude. JJB 17:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: I did not !vote in my comments above, so now I shall. There's no consensus to delete this article. Its a messy waste of time at this point. We need a better framework for handling these articles, but we won't reach it by deletion here, in my opinion.-- Milowent • talk blp-r 17:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • It's hardly a waste of time. The "keep" voters have not commented on the lack of sources (three sources identical), and most of these voters come from the same external or internal groups, and they're trying to commandeer the discussion. Read the reasons for deletion, not just the votes. — Timneu22 · talk 17:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • Sir, there are 5 articles in the article, and I have found other articles from birthdays before his 110th, It seems like sufficient coverage, if he wasn't notable according to anyone then how did he get that much coverage? Longevitydude ( talk) 19:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
        • Are you serious? We've already discussed this. Mirror sites. WP:N. — Timneu22 · talk 19:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
          • To be fair, those are not mirrors, but the question is whether somebody who's never had extra-Belgian coverage before last week is now suddenly notable. Even if he were a local mayor he'd need more coverage. What he is instead, putting it bluntly, is a guy at the rest home who, unlike several other Europeans who claim to be older (already linked), happened to get the right three documents to the GRG, members of which are also dictating both the extra-Belgian coverage and the WP article. JJB 20:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Uninvolved guidance sought We're going in circles in a venue far from the light our co-editors might be able to shed. David in DC ( talk) 20:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • one editor said,There's some consensus that "local news" sources generate lesser weight toward notability, but that consensus is in regard to e.g. community newspapers of Pothole, Idaho, not Belgium. Longevitydude ( talk) 20:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Per Reyk, Colonel Warden, Ravenswing, et al. Newspapers around the world have taken notice of this man, that's what notability is. But even besides that, we're supposed to be the sum of the world's knowledge. Who the oldest man in Europe is is a rather important bit of knowledge. -- GRuban ( talk) 22:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • If only we knew! I've been assuming he's the oldest [verified living] man in Europe, but he's not even that! He is not listed as verified on the GRG's primary or pending list! Since they apparently track these folks from age 108 and yet there has been no 3-document verification made, he is no different from any of the other "oldest men in Europe". I repeat that WP currently says Józef Kowalski had a 110th birthday in Poland last February, a precisely similarly positioned but "older" guy, and there are several others. Sorry this blindingly obvious verification failure came so late (I will edit the article accordingly), but this definitively indicates a result of pointing the name to list of Belgian supercentenarians. I was coming over here to say that anyway, because it appears to be an already-accepted consensus solution (of the type that this discussion hoped to achieve), at List of supercentenarians from the United States#People, where the short bios are already merged in; but I trust the additional epic fail makes the result clear. Yes, I'm advocating, I do that when my convictions are categorical. JJB 17:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
      It indicates that if one is thinking of the whole thing in terms of "this guy is notable for being the oldest guy in X geographic region". But I don't know why one would do that. The interesting question to me is whether the available third-party coverage on him is independent, reliable and significant. Use the GNG, yo. The GNG: It's Pretty Good!™ — chaos5023 ( talk) 18:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC) reply
Well, as to GNG, the third-party coverage of the 110th is not independent of the GRG, of which some of the keep !voters are members, and it's not significant. The sources are all taking his word for it without verification, so they're not independent or secondary in relation to him either. As to reliable, it would be more reliable if someone had reported reviewing the birth certificate (the GRG is only "tracking" him, not "verifying" him). And as to specific notability guidelines, where the workgroup has been negligent by not creating any, there is a general consensus shown by the U.S. article above that 110s with this degree of coverage belong in the list articles. But in short, your position comes down to saying that anybody who claims to be old enough to get newspaper reporters out there deserves a separate article, which is not much different from the radical inclusionism you deny above, nor from the WP:IINFO position. Even if I went further than you do, and took the position that all coverage of Jan was encyclopedic, it would still be better managed on a workgroup level (and thus an improvement) to merge and redirect, rather than to maintain a separate article that remains a stub at this date (along with all the other stubs). And that's before the walled-garden issues, plus the recently discovered issue that Longevitydude has claimed he was verified without providing any proof of that fact in all his sourcing. JJB 18:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete or redirect to Lists of centenarians As commented above, those 5 sources are mirrors of each other, and 4 of them are local newspapers. Fails WP:BASIC. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 16:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Delete; just being the oldest person in a country isn't notable enough, and I note the paucity of non-mirrored sources. I'm not seeing how it even meets WP:BASIC, and kicking the heat to light ratio towards the former isn't helping the "keep" cause. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 17:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Discussion note: I have now analyzed the many late 2007 longevity AFDs at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People#Deletion recommendations, which I believe is the natural next discussion for editors to join as to the larger questions; naturally my analysis supports my delete-or-redirect position. JJB 21:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep 110 years old is notable. Sumbuddi ( talk) 03:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • Can you explain how? What you've given is not an argument. — Timneu22 · talk 10:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • yes it is. 110 years is a 'supercentenarian' and a very unusual boundary to reach. Sumbuddi ( talk) 12:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
        • Again, that's not a valid argument. Use WP:RS, not opinion. — Timneu22 · talk 12:56, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
          • I think you meant to link to WP:BIO, which says 'The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded.'. This is unusal enough to be recorded, end of. Sumbuddi ( talk) 15:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to one of the lists. He's only known for one thing, and the coverage is minimal. Quantpole ( talk) 15:13, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I note 15 keep votes, 14 delete votes (including 'merge'), and 3 keep/merge votes. Obviously all the (insert your opinion here) votes are backed by invalid reasoning, so that means the decision should be to (insert your opinon here). Sumbuddi ( talk) 16:22, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
    • the statistics read I guess an editor removed some of the votes, but thank you for the information.
    • Delete: 26 48.15
    • Keep: 25 46.3
    • Redirect: 3 5.56
    • Longevitydude ( talk) 16:25, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • The collapsed, duplicated summary would be messing with the AFD statistics, so I removed it. Sumbuddi ( talk) 16:34, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to one of the lists per WP:BASIC.   — Jeff G.  ツ 16:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Votecount a bit more accurately since Sumbuddi and Longevitydude have broken the suspense:
    • Delete without merge (11): Secret, Qworty, David in DC, NickOrnstein, Griswaldo, Masem, Resolute, Carolyn Baker III (thinking), Itsmejudith, MuZemike (weak), The Blade of the Northern Lights
    • Delete OR merge (4): Timneu22 (in later comment), John J. Bulten, Namiba (TM), Enric Naval
    • Merge (3): Clarityfiend, Quantpole, Jeff G.
    • Keep OR merge (7): Brendanology (in earlier comment), SiameseTurtle, Bsherr, Ryoung122, 62.235.160.79 (SPA per Ryoung122), Milowent (in earlier comment), GRuban (per others)
    • Keep without merge (9): Longevitydude, Petervermaelen, Ravenswing, Thparkth, Colonel Warden, Reyk (weak), 94.227.30.79 (SPA), Chaos5023, Sumbuddi
  • Total 34. By these basic and casuistic counts you have 15 delete, 14 merge, 16 keep, so there is clearly no consensus. By another method of counting you could take the first four as potentially preferring merge over keep (25), or the last four as potentially preferring merge over delete (23), but that is a standard middle-of-the-road argument and does not have extra probative value; you could just as well argue that cold deleters exceed cold keepers, although that too can be tweaked. If you take only the 3 "weak" or "thinking" as includible in merge, you get 17 and so it still might be the best consensus-achieving position. Strategically, if we close as NCDK it might get merged anyway, and if we close as merge/redirect it might get recreated anyway, and the discussion would resume. So the real question is, where to resume it and what will it say, and I propose we continue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People#Deletion recommendations. JJB 18:16, 10 November 2010 (UTC) I should add that I think NCDK (no consensus default keep) would be an abrogation of the closer's duties and a punt. Much better to make a firm choice based on strength of argument, not addressed by votecount, or to relist so that the project talkpage can decide this based on reaching a basic outcome consensus. JJB 18:25, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I believe "delete + merge > keep", so you go with merge. There is a clear consensus that the data doesn't belong in its own article. — Timneu22 · talk 18:22, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
      • Eh, its a mess, and i think no consensus = no consensus.-- Milowent • talk blp-r 20:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
        • I'm sure the deleters would consent to the info being added to a list page; the problem was with this article containing info. — Timneu22 · talk 20:51, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
  • WP:VOTE Nutshell of Guideline: "Wikipedia decisions are not made by popular vote, but rather through discussions by reasonable people working towards consensus. Polling is only meant to facilitate discussion, and should be used with care."
While not exactly evil, !voting presents significant problems. If I were an admin, which thankfully I'm not, I'd conclude the broadest consensus is that this isn't a WP:BIO, but that a redirect to a list is less objectionable to more editors than an outright delete. If I were king, which we all should be thankful I'm not, I'd take a blowtorch to a whole lot of stubs that strike me as hobbyist trivia and well within the dictates of WP:NOT.
If I were an admin, I'd also take note of the larger problem of the conflation of the GRG, WP:WikiProject World's Oldest People, the GWR, the GRG yahoo group - and the myriads of WP:CRUFT GRG has accreted into WP. Then I'd punt that whole issue to a colleague or colleagues whose judgment and equanimity I trusted and who wouldn't kill me for asking them to step into this viper's nest next.
Longevitydude's passion for knowledge is evident. As is his zeal for generic fairness and due respect for "allies" he admires. But his arguments above present prime facie evidence that the Wikipedia World's Oldest People WikiProject and its acolytes are explicitly out to do something other than build an encyclopedia. Taken together with the talk of leaders, and access to special yahoo group documents, and most of the rest of the carp on the WOP project pages (especially its talk page), there's a forest out there that needs serious pruning, of which this trivial stub is merely a symptom.
But we edit these articles one at a time. A close here need only address this tree. The larger forest can be discussed at an RfC, on a Noticeboard, or, as has been happening because the appropriate WikiProject has utterly failed to create a "common outcomes" protocol, one arbor at a time.
Enric Naval and The Blade of Northern Lights have both shed more light than heat above (metaphor stolen directly from BNL). If you take what they say about WP:BASIC and what I've said above about the interplay between the rebuttable presumption erected by the first several bullets of WP:GNG and the very example of an appropriate rebuttal to the presumption found WP:GNG's final bullet, the closing note for a delete or a redirect to a list is practically pre-written. David in DC ( talk) 21:07, 10 November 2010 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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