- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Doczilla @SUPERHEROLOGIST 08:35, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Hamas beheading incidents
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This is an inferior WP:CFORK of Kfar Aza massacre#Allegations of beheadings with a poorly referenced WP:SYNTH background, involving an unrelated beheading of a gay man in Palestine, not attributed to Hamas. The topic of beheadings done by Hamas is not notable independently of the Kfar Aza massacre. — Alalch E. 21:29, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, Terrorism, Israel, and Palestine. — Alalch E. 21:29, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's a plausible search term, though. What this page title ought to contain is a disambiguation page pointing to
Hamas#Violence,
Criticism of Hamas (which doesn't mention beheadings yet but it should) and
Kfar Aza massacre#Allegations of beheadings.—
S Marshall
T/
C 22:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Good idea, I agree. — Alalch E. 23:22, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- The thing is though that decapitations occurred on multiple sites systematically. Kfar Aza came into focus due to decapitation of babies (how many decapitated babies became a contoversy). Soldiers however were beheaded in most battle sites, including bases of Re'im and Sufa. The beheadings of soldiers were videoed and photographed. GreyShark ( dibra) 08:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- On a further note, this article mirrors
Islamic State beheading incidents; this is obviously where the title format comes from. That article is predominantly a list of such incidents with some limited prose about the phenomenon, and this article tries to do the same but fails: Namely the oddly titled "Implementation" section consists (
while I'm writing this) of two subsections, "Beheading of infants in Israeli villages" dealing with one village, Kfar Aza, and "Decapitations during the October 7 attack on Israel"... which also deals with Kfar Aza. This could be an attempt to artificially increase the appearance of the number of such incidents in order to justify the existence of the article. When these things are considered together (the article strains to justify it's existence, and the subject mirrors an article about ISIS), one should probably look in the direction of this being not just a content fork, but an anti-Hamas POV fork,
referencing the Israeli official line of saying 'Hamas is ISIS' (
The refrain became a hashtag, and has been echoed by Israeli officials and politicians across the spectrum
).— Alalch E. 01:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)- In addition to the Kfar Aza events, the article now also mentions the killing of Shani Louk, but she was not beheaded. Herzog, the president of Israel, incorrectly stated, not having complete information, that she was beheaded, but that is not what happened. She suffered a head injury during the massacre, probably by being shot in the head, and a small bone fragment (
petrous part of the temporal bone) separated from her skull; she was killed. His spokesperson subsequently corrected the statement. Her body her not has been recovered, while the skull fragment has been found at the scene. We have a whole article about that topic at
Killing of Shani Louk, with excellent sourcing. @
Greyshark09: Pinging you to see this.—
Alalch E. 14:00, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I have corrected this to say that it is a false report. Still, a a false report of a beheading is not a "Hamas beheading incident". — Alalch E. 17:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- In addition to the Kfar Aza events, the article now also mentions the killing of Shani Louk, but she was not beheaded. Herzog, the president of Israel, incorrectly stated, not having complete information, that she was beheaded, but that is not what happened. She suffered a head injury during the massacre, probably by being shot in the head, and a small bone fragment (
petrous part of the temporal bone) separated from her skull; she was killed. His spokesperson subsequently corrected the statement. Her body her not has been recovered, while the skull fragment has been found at the scene. We have a whole article about that topic at
Killing of Shani Louk, with excellent sourcing. @
Greyshark09: Pinging you to see this.—
Alalch E. 14:00, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am assuming WP:AGF as the name is similar to the ISIS one. Another issue is skimming decapitation it doesn't mention Hamas or ISIS. So why not combine into an article on modern summary public execution or beheadings? That would exclude the current or proposed judicial ones in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. Wakelamp d[@-@]b ( talk) 07:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Are you proposing merger of both articles into decapitation then? GreyShark ( dibra) 08:18, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete WP:Notability is the only guideline determining if a topic deserves a standalone article; significant coverage of a phenomenon of beheadings is not present in the sources. What is present are references about the 40 decapitated babies rumors and statements by Netanyahu. Makeandtoss ( talk) 14:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Move to
Beheading in the State of Palestine - a less narrow topic, and add other notable cases such as
Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh. Note - we have similar articles such as
Islamic State beheading incidents. Incidents of beheading have received significant interest by reliable sources, and the suggested renamed article would be also a geographical sub-article of
Beheading in Islam.
Marokwitz (
talk) 15:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note that 2011 Itamar attack was not perpetrated by Hamas (if I'm not mistaken), this is another reason to rename. Marokwitz ( talk) 15:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Likely the major impetus for creation of this article was the accusation during the current Hamas-Israeli War, and that is the major part of the article. Problem is, Dr. Chen Kugel, head of the Israeli National Center of Forensic Medicine, said: “We also have bodies coming in without heads, but we can’t definitely say it was from beheadings. Heads can also be blown off due to explosive devices, missiles, and the like,” [1] Snopes also casts doubt in this area. [2] The other problem is that this article feeds on a Islamic trope related to ISIS. Atrocities occurred. But, this article uses unconfirmed claims that, accidentally or not, tie Hamas to ISIS. The article comes across as designed to inflame rather than inform. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 15:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: This material is tenuous at best. A combination of rumour, tropes and inconclusive evidence. The claims, allegations and tentative evidence should be hosted on the relevant event pages, not here, sandwiched between some barely related background information and events that were simply miscommunicated. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:29, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: I'm afraid I don't have any new arguments to add to the discussion, as what I would have said has already been written by other users who have explained it far more eloquently than I could. Thus, all I will say is that I agree with others that the page violates Wikipedia's standards of notability, and that the page's existence also provides undue attention to what essentially amounts to a fringe conspiracy theory. Iamextremelygayokay ( talk) 06:21, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete on lack of significant coverage in secondary reliable sources (per Makeandtoss). Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete not notable. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 11:18, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete due to lack of notability, reliance on unverified claims and potential for the article to be more propagandistic. StarkReport ( talk) 19:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete There's still no clear unambigious evidence that hamas deliberately beheaded people ala IS. See this story in The Media Line [3], could have been the result of explosions or other causes. Not really worthy of a standalone article, as already covered at Kfar Aza massacre. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 21:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.