The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. This debate is reasonably poorly-attended, so finding consensus is slightly more challenging and less obvious (strength of argument being the primary factor, rather than strength of support for an argument). In this debate, I find Bearcat's nomination and subsequent responses the most persuasive per policy, and hence am closing as Delete. Daniel ( talk) 01:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC) reply

Cristina Howorun

Cristina Howorun (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)

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WP:BLP of a single-market local television reporter, not properly referenced as passing our notability criteria for journalists. As always, simply having a job as a local reporter is not an automatic notability freebie in and of itself, in the absence of WP:GNG-worthy coverage about her in sources independent of her career -- but the references here consist almost entirely of directly affiliated primary source content which is not support for notability, such as her staff profile on the self-published website of her own employer, alumni profiles on the self-published websites of her own alma maters, and content in which she's writing or speaking in the first person about her own recent health challenges. Literally the only footnote here which represents an independent third party writing about her in the third person comes from Yahoo! News, which is not a reputable enough media outlet to clinch her notability all by itself as the only independent source in play. And even the strongest potential notability claim, purported journalism awards, are referenced only to the staff profile rather than any evidence of media coverage about the award presentations. Nothing here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt her from having to be referenced a lot better than this. Bearcat ( talk) 22:17, 3 July 2021 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Journalism-related deletion discussions. Bearcat ( talk) 22:17, 3 July 2021 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Bearcat ( talk) 22:17, 3 July 2021 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone ^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC) reply

• keep While Howorun is a local Toronto reporter, her work is seen across the country and is broadcast in multiple markets. I added additional source citations today, to better illustrate her reach. Her journalism is actively discussed in many circles and the story about her kidney transplant wasn't just "first person" reported, but also, written about by other reporters in several other markets see for example: ^[1]. or ^[2]. As for her awards, I imagine that a reputable news station wouldn't allow a staff bio without verification of those awards. I looked around and those awards don't often garner media attention, save for mentions by their own workplaces. A quick google did find reference to another award, ^[3] which I included.

When looking up her documentary, i found several media outlets interviewing her or mentioning/reviewing her film,see for example ^[4] , ^[5] , ^[6] which I believe qualifies Mrs. Howorun as a notable entry.20:13, 4 July 2021 (UTC) CRM720454 ( talk) — CRM720454 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

You haven't shown any sources that are making a difference. Kitchener Today is "powered by 570 News", which is a radio station owned by Rogers Media and thus not independent of a reporter for CITY-DT (check who owns Citytv if you don't understand why). "BizX Magazine" and "National Telegraph" are not reliable sources, you're not allowed to cite blogs or podcasts like "The Big Story" or "The Gun Blog", and J-Source is a 50-word blurb which isn't substantive enough to get a person over the notability bar all by itself if it's the best source you can find.
As for her awards, this is how it works: in order to be a notable award at all, it has to be an award that gets covered by the media. If it doesn't get such coverage, and instead you have to source it to Unifor's own self-published press release announcing its own award presentation because journalism about the award presentation does not exist, then it isn't a notable award — and if it isn't a notable award, then it automatically isn't an award that can make its winners notable for winning it, precisely because a non-notable award cannot make its winners "inherently" notable for winning a non-notable award.
So no, you have not demonstrated that Cristina Howorun meets our notability standards for journalists. We require reliable sources, not just any web page you can find that has her name in it; those sources have to be independent of her, not published by her own employer or its co-owned sister outlets or other organizations directly affiliated with the claims; and on and so forth. Bearcat ( talk) 06:13, 6 July 2021 (UTC) reply

• Delete I looked and concur with Bearcat subject has a job, and has been promoted by her employer. Fails WP:GNG. Jeepday ( talk) 15:02, 9 July 2021 (UTC) reply
• Keep, per CRM720454's comment. NemesisAT ( talk) 22:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC) reply

• ‘’’keep’’’ The first person articles didn’t appear in publications affiliated with her employer, there’s been far more coverage of her life than many reporters, and the documentary aired nationally on a network, thereby negating her “local reporter” only status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:626:D3FA:3C3A:60E3:5B44:56E9 ( talk • contribs) — 2605:8D80:626:D3FA:3C3A:60E3:5B44:56E9 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Sources that a person wrote about themselves in the first person are never support for notability at all. The only kind of source that legitimately helps to establish notability is one in which she is being written about by other people in the third person, not sources where she's writing about herself in the first. And "the documentary" is supported solely by blogs and podcasts and primary sources that are not reliable sources and thus not legitimate support for notability, with no evidence of any reliable source coverage about it to make it notable either — even when it comes to hosting documentaries, the notability test is not "the documentary exists", but "the documentary has been the subject of reliable source coverage about it to establish that it was seen as significant". Again, notability is not a question of what the article says, it's a question of the quality of the sources that are being used to support what the article says, and these sources are not cutting it. Bearcat ( talk) 17:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC) reply

• Delete per the very well argued reasoning of the nominator. We do not use sources written by the subject to establish notability. We need works written by other people. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC) reply

• Keep (Revote struck.) As per Bearcat's arguments, I've removed several references which were written by the subject. I've also included another reference to coverage of her experience with kidney disease as covered by a direct competitor to her employer (Bell Media), as opposed to those affiliated with Rogers (the mother corporation of her employer) [1] While I could find several other references to Howorun online, Bearcat's argument initial argument that the subject's notability can't be achieved by self-published works or "Yahoo! News" alone, I hope is now sufficiently satisfied. CRM720454 ( talk) 12:08, 20 July 2021 (UTC) reply

Nope, the Bell Media/iHeartRadio source still doesn't cut it just because it comes from a competitor to Rogers — it's still an interview in which Cristina Howorun is talking about herself in the first person, so it isn't absolved of the "people cannot talk themselves into notability by being the first-person speaker or writer of their own sourcing" problem just because she was interviewed by a Bell employee instead of a Rogers employee. And the article is otherwise still relying on primary sources (notability is still not supported by directories of her own work on her own employers' websites, or by the self-published websites of directly affiliated organizations) and blogs, rather than any evidence of third-party reliable source coverage about her. As I said above, the only kind of source that legitimately helps to establish notability is one in which she is being written about by other people in the third person, not sources where she's writing or speaking about herself in the first.
Note as well that you are not allowed to "vote" more than once in an AFD discussion — you may post followup comments as often as necessary, but you may not preface any of the followup comments with a bolded restatement of the keep vote you've already given. Bearcat ( talk) 18:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.