- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. I'll drop this one back to Draft:Carolyn Ryan for further improvement, the Delete comments are clearly more based in policy. Black Kite (talk) 16:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Carolyn Ryan
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WP:BLP of a journalist, who has a potentially valid notability claim but doesn't have the type of reliable sourcing required to properly get over WP:GNG for it. Of the six footnotes here, two are her own employer's own internal staffing announcements, one is the alumni newsletter of her alma mater, one is Gawker, one is the Huffington Post and one is the self-published website of a resource organization for journalists -- which means that four of the six are primary sources that cannot support notability at all, and one more is an inherently unreliable source that never belongs anywhere near the references section of any Wikipedia article at all. The only reference here that isn't a complete non-starter for sourcing a person as notable is the Huffington Post, but it doesn't count for enough all by itself as an article's only viable source. No prejudice against recreation in the future if somebody can do better than this, but this is not the correct sourcing to make it keepable in this form. Bearcat ( talk) 01:06, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- Delete not enough indepdent, reliable sources to show notability. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:43, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I have removed all primary sources and found secondary sources for each fact listed. She is a notable senior editor and journalist who is been regular referenced in the news and has contributed to work that won a Pulitzer Prize. Lonehexagon ( talk) 15:12, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- Delete or userify based on current sources. It's a weak WP:TOOSOON delete as I presume the position is strong, although not listed at The New York Times, but without sources we don't know much about her. The source newyorker is instructive of what's missing here - it's about Jill Abramson with a passing mention of Carolyn Ryan, if this is the claim for notability - Pulitzer Prize for the paper - which isn't even mentioned on Jill's, then WP:N in not INHERITED from that we'd need more sources. Widefox; talk 16:19, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- Comment According to the New York Times: "Ryan has also served as the newspaper’s Metro editor and helped run its Pulitzer Prize-winning coverage of the fall of Eliot Spitzer." [1] I included that NYT citation for context, but since that doesn't contribute to notability, I have added the following secondary citations to the article which support her contributions to the Pulitzer Prize: According to Bizjournals, "She was the Times metro desk’s political editor in 2008 when the newspaper’s coverage of Gov. Eliot Spitzer’s prostitution scandal won it a Pulitzer Prize in 2009 for breaking news reporting." [2] On the Washington Post, they said this (before it had actually won a Pulitzer Prize): "The switch will send Ryan back up to New York, where she’d gained accolades for leading the paper’s Metro staff in pursuing the story that took down former New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer." [3] According to Adweek: "Ryan was a key part of the paper’s Eliot Spitzer resignation coverage, among many other high profile stories." [4] Lonehexagon ( talk) 17:11, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- NYT isn't independent, so doesn't help for notability, those other three are all NEWS about her appointment...the Washington Post is based on NYT
Dean Baquet’s memo, and an interview...so it's semi-independent/OK but weak for whole BLP, but still
WP:PRIMARYNEWS, with the exception being the Eliot Spitzer part. Still looks a bit TOOSOON.
Widefox;
talk 15:47, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for your feedback. I saw that Carolyn Ryan is listed as #25 in a list of Albany's top 100 people on cityandstateny.com and her profile states: "The Times’ stable of reporters provide stellar Albany coverage, from the Pulitzer Prize winning stories about Eliot Spitzer’s prostitution scandal to a series about the gaps in the state’s safety net for the disabled. Behind it all is Carolyn Ryan, who has the enormously important role of deciding the direction of the Times’ coverage of New York politics."
[5] There's also this profile about her on Huffington Post which states, "She started as deputy metro editor for government and politics, helping run major stories like the Eliot Spitzer prostitution scandal."
[6] She's also been interviewed on NBC News as the Washington Bureau Chief of The New York Times.
[7]
Lonehexagon (
talk) 02:31, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
- People don't qualify for Wikipedia articles just for being named in listicles, or by appearing in other media as an interview guest speaking about somebody else: the listicle isn't substantive, and the interview isn't about Carolyn Ryan as a subject. Just to be clear, for Wikipedia's purposes notability is not defined as "holds an important role", but as "got substantive coverage in unaffiliated media about her holding of an important role" — so it can't be supported by mere listicles or brief blurbs or coverage in the pages of her own employer of its own internal staffing decisions or by interviews in which she's the speaker, but requires real, substantive coverage about her in media outlets that don't sign her paycheque. So the Huffington Post piece is still the only source you've shown that's actually getting us somewhere — but where it's getting us isn't the finish line all by itself, because we require more than just one source to be getting us somewhere. Bearcat ( talk) 17:24, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for your feedback. I saw that Carolyn Ryan is listed as #25 in a list of Albany's top 100 people on cityandstateny.com and her profile states: "The Times’ stable of reporters provide stellar Albany coverage, from the Pulitzer Prize winning stories about Eliot Spitzer’s prostitution scandal to a series about the gaps in the state’s safety net for the disabled. Behind it all is Carolyn Ryan, who has the enormously important role of deciding the direction of the Times’ coverage of New York politics."
[5] There's also this profile about her on Huffington Post which states, "She started as deputy metro editor for government and politics, helping run major stories like the Eliot Spitzer prostitution scandal."
[6] She's also been interviewed on NBC News as the Washington Bureau Chief of The New York Times.
[7]
Lonehexagon (
talk) 02:31, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
- NYT isn't independent, so doesn't help for notability, those other three are all NEWS about her appointment...the Washington Post is based on NYT
Dean Baquet’s memo, and an interview...so it's semi-independent/OK but weak for whole BLP, but still
WP:PRIMARYNEWS, with the exception being the Eliot Spitzer part. Still looks a bit TOOSOON.
Widefox;
talk 15:47, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Comment Thank you for the clarification. I found that she has been noted as a top 100 influential person in Albany, which is definitely notable if you're from Albany. [8] I also saw that she did coverage for the 2016 election night. CNN Money did an article about the journalists who covered it, which means the article was about her and the other journalists. It's not news, it's coverage of her coverage. [9] Lonehexagon ( talk) 21:29, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
- I was looking through the notability guidelines in WP:CREATIVE and saw this about notable creative professionals like journalists: "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors." Ryan is widely cited by peers as she's regularly asked to give commentary on what's happening in the NYT newsroom as well as her opinion on current events. The article also says, "The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work." Ryan played a major role in co-creating a work that won a Pulitzer Prize. Lonehexagon ( talk) 21:41, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is no notability claim that any article can ever make that hands it an automatic exemption from having to be
properly sourced — even a president of the United States would not get to have a Wikipedia article if he somehow managed to hold the role without getting any media coverage about his presidency. It's the depth and breadth and quality of
reliable sourcing that can be shown to support the notability claim, not the mere assertion of a notability claim in and of itself, that determines whether the notability claim translates into getting a Wikipedia article or not.
Bearcat (
talk) 23:49, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
- There are now more than two good notability secondary sources, as well as all the quotes and other coverage in the news which can be combined via
WP:BIO to help add notability. For example The Huffington Post interview, being noted as a top influential person in Albany, and being covered by CNN Money for her election night coverage. She has been written about and quoted in so many places in so many sources I think it's reasonable someone might want to look up her name and see who she is after watching her get interviewed on television or asked about her opinion about the NYT newsroom or current news. If you search for her name on Google News, she gets hundreds of results because she is so widely spoken about and quoted.
[10]
Lonehexagon (
talk) 00:50, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- As for this whole "top x" argument, please see
WP:ARBITRARY, an argument to avoid in AfDs.
Widefox;
talk 01:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- Noted. It was meant to support the criteria, "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors." My other points still stand. She was also covered by City & State which is a complete profile of her in a notable secondary source. [11] Lonehexagon ( talk) 02:30, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- As for this whole "top x" argument, please see
WP:ARBITRARY, an argument to avoid in AfDs.
Widefox;
talk 01:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- There are now more than two good notability secondary sources, as well as all the quotes and other coverage in the news which can be combined via
WP:BIO to help add notability. For example The Huffington Post interview, being noted as a top influential person in Albany, and being covered by CNN Money for her election night coverage. She has been written about and quoted in so many places in so many sources I think it's reasonable someone might want to look up her name and see who she is after watching her get interviewed on television or asked about her opinion about the NYT newsroom or current news. If you search for her name on Google News, she gets hundreds of results because she is so widely spoken about and quoted.
[10]
Lonehexagon (
talk) 00:50, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is no notability claim that any article can ever make that hands it an automatic exemption from having to be
properly sourced — even a president of the United States would not get to have a Wikipedia article if he somehow managed to hold the role without getting any media coverage about his presidency. It's the depth and breadth and quality of
reliable sourcing that can be shown to support the notability claim, not the mere assertion of a notability claim in and of itself, that determines whether the notability claim translates into getting a Wikipedia article or not.
Bearcat (
talk) 23:49, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/business/media/new-york-times-editor-recruitment-carolyn-ryan.html
- ^ https://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/news/2013/05/02/ny-times-names-ryan-its-top-political.html
- ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/09/08/nyt-politics-editor-carolyn-ryan-weve-dominated-all-the-big-stories/?utm_term=.21d6de42c93e
- ^ http://www.adweek.com/digital/new-york-times-taps-carolyn-ryan-to-be-metro-editor/
- ^ http://archives.cityandstateny.com/albany-power-100-list-8/
- ^ https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/01/carolyn-ryan-new-york-times-washington-bureau_n_4368790.html
- ^ https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/17/nyts_carolyn_ryan_dems_feeling_like_obama_doesnt_care_about_their_races.html
- ^ http://archives.cityandstateny.com/albany-power-100-list-8/
- ^ http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/05/media/election-night-news-coverage-oral-history/index.html
- ^ https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS724US724&biw=1375&bih=707&tbm=nws&ei=w517Wo-iM6zejwSilZTYDA&q=%22Carolyn+Ryan%22+reporter&oq=%22Carolyn+Ryan%22+reporter&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3568.4175.0.4247.8.7.0.0.0.0.140.562.0j5.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..3.0.0....0.wWpOBFea8rg
- ^ http://archives.cityandstateny.com/carolyn-ryan/
- Summary (struck [a]) I vote to keep this article. I want to personally thank Bearcat and Widefox for the time and help they've offered. I truly appreciate it, and I believe I have learned a lot about what is acceptable and not acceptable as far as sources and notability. I wanted to summarize why I believe this article should be kept, so no one has to read through all that's been said by me. Lonehexagon ( talk) 20:33, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- Carolyn Ryan is a journalist and senior editor at The New York Times who contributed to the Pulitzer Prize winning coverage of Eliot Spitzer[1][2] and has been noted as an influential reporter.[3]
- [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/09/08/nyt-politics-editor-carolyn-ryan-weve-dominated-all-the-big-stories/?utm_term=.fd0a87580907 - In-depth article on Washington Post about Ryan that supports her current position and discusses her place at the Times and in the Newsroom. It also supports the fact that she was a major contributor to the Pulitzer Prize winning coverage of Eliot Spitzer.
- [2] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/01/carolyn-ryan-new-york-times-washington-bureau_n_4368790.html - An in-depth article about Ryan in the Huffington Post that also discusses her position and her past work, including the coverage of Eliot Spitzer
- [3]
http://archives.cityandstateny.com/carolyn-ryan/ - City & State conducted a profile on her as an influential reporter
- [a] This is a 2nd !vote - struck by Widefox
Widefox;
talk 21:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, I didn't understand. I have changed it to just say "Summary" Lonehexagon ( talk) 01:57, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
- [a] This is a 2nd !vote - struck by Widefox
Widefox;
talk 21:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
- Carolyn Ryan is a journalist and senior editor at The New York Times who contributed to the Pulitzer Prize winning coverage of Eliot Spitzer[1][2] and has been noted as an influential reporter.[3]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
- Delete as sources are not wide and independent enough to support notability per nom. 104.163.148.25 ( talk) 16:29, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Journalism-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 08:15, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 08:15, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep has coverage in RS, works in a notable media org and has an important role in said org. Vinegarymass911 ( talk) 06:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.