The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Despite a lot of the keep !votes lacking any valid arguments, noone who wants to delete the article has sufficiently explained why the coverage presented in the AfD and in the article do not meet the standards of
WP:GNG (the Camus chapter or the IGN article for example were not really discussed). There is support to merge the Cain and Abel articles, the discussion of this proposal should continue on the relevant talk pages.
Pax:Vobiscum (
talk) 15:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Keepor merge but not delete. Recurring DC character. But notable? Maybe. Since he was a featured recurring hosted characters from DC for a long time . We shall see. All it is missing is reception in all honesty. I should note that this editor is just baiting what seems like new articles but isn’t because it was
an old duo article.
Jhenderson777 02:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment note:I decided to strike my vote. In my personal opinion it proves notability with my copy edits and research on topic but I can’t speak for everybody on here just yet. It’s better but it ain’t perfect yet. Also with an adaption of the Sandman I feel there might be more coverage of related characters in the future. Here is hoping the Netflix adaptation is well hyped.
Jhenderson777 21:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep Recurring character across multiple significant titles.
Artw (
talk) 02:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete or redirect - The topic lacks real world information from multiple reliable sources to match the standards of
WP:WAF/
WP:NOTPLOT and fulfill
WP:GNG.
TTN (
talk) 03:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete Per TTN, "it's a recurring character" is not a valid argument unless someone can come up with sources that prove notability. There are many recurring characters that lack any sort of notability whatsoever.ZXCVBNM (
TALK) 06:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
There is already sources. So keep grasping that we are just using “recurring”. I swear you guys just vote delete for the sake of it.
Jhenderson777 13:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Strong keep-This is a good article! It just needs some fixing up. JTZegersSpeak Aura 14:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
In what way is this presently in good shape? It fails to live up to the standards of
WP:WAF. It fails
WP:NOTPLOT due to that. It lacks reliable sources discussing the content in a non-trivial manner, so it fails
WP:GNG. It seems perfect for a Fandom wiki, but certainly not Wikipedia.
TTN (
talk) 14:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Just about every source talks about its creation and conception. So only partly true. It just need critical reception to warrant their stand alone worthiness to strike out my merge vote which I am tempted to do anyway. There is more than just plot and the plot info is basically adhering to manual of style of the comics WikiProject Comics anyway.
Jhenderson777 18:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep - Let this page stay. Cain and Abel should deserve separate articles per the suggestion of @
Jhenderson777:, @
Artw:, and
Aura. --
Rtkat3 (
talk) 20:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Weak delete. I have a soft spot for Gaiman's stuff, which seems to be the 'high literature' of comics anyway. Sadly, the sources above are very bad (one mentions the subject in a single sentence, that's the very definition of trivial, in passing mention as defined in GNG). The only better source is
[1], but it is still still a single one. But at least that's one relatively in-depth source. Can we find one more? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 03:57, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
If you like to read more than I do, @
Piotrus:.
Here may be an interesting find. I am sure it has info on Cain, Abel and possibly even Eve. I will ping on some more if I find some. Not sure if reliable but it cited sources that are.
Jhenderson777 14:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Jhenderson777: Thanks, I'll take a look. There is a short discussion of Cain and Abel's origins (
House of Secrets (DC Comics),
House of Mystery, plus of course the Bible). Unfortunately, I don't see much else of value there, it is the usual plot summary. The best is a short reference to him and his brother as "Gothic/slapstick characters" (and another as to them being "less famous DC characters"). I don't think this is good enough to rescue the brothers from wiki oblivion, but do ping me if there is anything else to review. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 14:21, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Yay for Netflix adaptation, but my take on Top 10 would be quire different (Death, Lucien, Cain&Abel, Matthew...). Anyway, off topic :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 14:24, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
This says the anthologies that focused on Cain and Abel were like childhood readings to Gaiman. Another interesting read maybe. Also yes the Netflix series sounds exciting.
Jhenderson777 14:29, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Here is a mention too. But it says the same thing as said before.
Jhenderson777 14:37, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep: There are decent sources already present in the article that have not been addressed here. —
Toughpigs (
talk) 16:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge with
Abel (DC Comics) - After the major improvements to both articles, I am now convinced that the content is keepable. However, I am not convinced that Cain and Abel are independently notable from each other. Both of these articles need to be combined. Darkknight2149 21:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)reply
I just realized this too. Though they seem to have different appearances. They seem more notable together after all and I failed to see that due to first appearances conflict and sometimes different appearances all together. Also still wondering about Eve who sometimes is interconnected with them too.
Jhenderson777 21:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Is there a
DC Horror hosts article already? If not it might be an idea to combine all of them.
Artw (
talk) 02:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Like a list article? It doesn’t sound like a bad idea though I feel that the duo Cain and Abel are notable enough as is.
Jhenderson777 03:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment: In the alternative, you may also hypothetically merge both articles into a new one called Cain and Abel (DC Comics). Kind of like this
Xerneas and Yveltal. Both characters are concepted and linked based on the same biblical dynamic anyway.
Haleth (
talk) 08:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)reply
I do believe that was whatDarkKnight2149 meant. I am the one who split them off anyway from and I would unsplit them on
Cain and Abel (comics) or somewhere if that be the consensus. All this maybe could be done when the AFD is done.
Jhenderson777 13:00, 26 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep The nomination's assertions are false as the page already has plenty of good sources and it is easy to find more, such as The Encyclopedia of the Gothic, which demonstrates the encyclopedic nature of the topic. Policy
WP:ATD applies: "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." See also
WP:NEXIST.
Andrew🐉(
talk) 09:52, 26 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep Sizable article well supported with references. The nomination reference of ‘real world’ makes no sense to me - that certainly does not seem to be a relevant criteria here.--
Concertmusic (
talk) 19:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep for now, as there is no consensus for deletion. There probably should be some merging between this and the Eve and Abel articles, but that should not be discussed in AFD.
Rhino131 (
talk) 15:50, 30 November 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.