The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I'm closing this as Keep as the Delete opinion is a Weak Delete, the article is no longer unsourced and we have at least two enthusiastic editors who can work on improving this article. LizRead!Talk!21:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep: I've found a Beaton portrait in the National Portrait Gallery, and there's an intriguing Central Office of Information documentary
Designing Women (1947 film), starring her with
Joyce Grenfell - see
BFI and the note on her talk page (and the nonRS
IMDb). It does look as if much of the content of the article was added by likely COI editor
User:SonsPaulandNicholas and SPA
User:Jmcmurrah, but it all seems reasonable and most of it likely to be verifiable (well, perhaps not the family story about "My Portia"!) Pinging @
PatGallacher: who created the article,in case it's no longer on their watchlist.
PamD09:23, 2 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. A basic internet search helps define
WP:Notability. This actress has pages of search results for her acting work. I added her television work in the UK as well, one broadcast was from a live performance — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Starlighsky (
talk •
contribs) 2 August 2023 (UTC)
Weak Delete. Of the sources provided only one is usable for notability
[1]. The others are simple mentions without commentary or databases. The level of work seen in her IMDb profile (nor the theatre work mentioned there) is not enough to presume notability in the absence of multiple independent, reliable sources that discuss the subject in more detail than the ones we have.
Eluchil404 (
talk)
02:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Hoo boy. So, I found a lot of mentions of her. I'm thinking she does qualify for
Wikipedia:NACTOR based on the number of productions.
The stage performances (none listed in the article) that I've found so far: Rodney Ackland's dramatization of Crime and Punishment; The Rivals; Ring Round the Moon; Noel Coward's Point Valaine; He Who Gets Slapped; Hamlet (1945); The Return of the Prodigal; A Trip to the Sourdough; The Relapse.
Mentions in Theatre Arts magazine in reviews of productions she was in:
-January 1945 (v 29, # 1, p 61)
"Chanticleer Theatre" by Raymond Leader. Noted as part of Greta Douglas' troupe with Margaret Gordon, Peter Noble, Robert Marsden and Alan Adair. Also noted she was invited (whole troupe, actually) to play on Shaftesbury Ave.
-October 1946 (v 30, # 10, p 594)
"Crime and Punishment". Mentioned as one of the "other actors in the large cast" of production of Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment.
- listed as playing Consuela in
"He Who Gets Slapped" in 1947, with plot description on page 199; a review on pages 219, 315-6; and a picture on page 281.
I'm thinking she does qualify for Wikipedia:NACTOR based on the number of productions.WP:NACTOR#1 says The person has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions (emphasis mine). I agree she has had multiple roles. How many were significant roles in notable productions? -
UtherSRG(talk)11:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Characters she played on stage from the cast lists linked above:
Sure, but was it a notable production? Just because the play itself is notable doesn't mean every production of it is notable? Your high school could put on a production of the same play and that (very likely) is not notable. -
UtherSRG(talk)13:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Well Point Valaine obviously is a notable production (the London premiere), but are you actually suggesting that performing on London's West End is equivalent to a high school production?
I'm not being facetious; I'm new to AfD and I thought providing a response on a relisted discussion would be more helpful than one that others are more likely paying attention to. So I'm actually asking. How notable does it need to be for it to be relevant?
From what I've read, the burden is on the person wanting to keep the article to prove significance, so if I'm to do that, I need to know what the determining factors are.
Also, should I be providing a detailed analysis of each link? I thought a summary would be fine b/c that's how I noticed it was done elsewhere. Is the burden higher on relisted discussions?
OIM20 (
talk)
13:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)reply
You should check out
WP:NFILM for notability for films, etc. Actors gonna act... that doesn't mean they are notable. This is why we have
WP:NACTOR. Start with that and NFILM to start gaining an understanding. As for relisted discussions, that just means no conclusion has yet been reached, and the closer doesn't see a need for an immediate ending; no additional burden is levied. -
UtherSRG(talk)15:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks! Can I assume that "film" can be replaced with "stageplay" for most of that, or is there something separate for stage performances?
_________________
@
Dusti, @
Liz - Since I need to prove that the performances themselves were significant despite the fact she played on
London's West End, can I have a couple of days to go through the rest of the
260 returns on Internet Archive to determine how many are movie reviews, how many are play reviews, and then where, when, and how significant each stage performance was? I don't know that I can finish that by the 30th when this is set to close.
If the above is any indication, there's a good mix, and a lot of the references will be for the same performances.
(And I do know that at least one is actually a film that's on IA's servers. So there may be others that are similar content and not useful for showing she should remain due to
Wikipedia:NACTOR.)
OIM20 (
talk)
17:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)reply
OIM20, please stop. AFDs are a forum for presenting arguments for a particular outcome for an article, typically based in Wikipedia policy regarding notability and sources that suport claims of notability. It's not the location for presenting article content so do not list every role this actor ever had. It will not convince other editors to suport your position which is usually how deletion discussions are determined. LizRead!Talk!03:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.