- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Black Kite (talk) 16:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Asami Sato
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With all due respect to the creator of this article, I believe that they erred in creating a dedicated article about this fictional character, who I think fails WP:GNG. Granted, she's a major character in a very notable television series, and she has been mentioned a lot in media coverage about the relationship between her and the lead character, which has been written about as pioneering LGBT representation in children's TV (see The Legend of Korra#Critical response). However, that relationship is an aspect of the series as a whole, not of the character individually, who remains something of a cipher even in the series as presented on-screen. There are just not (yet!) enough third-party sources covering Asami Sato, as a character in her own right rather than only in her function as Korra's romantic interest, in sufficient detail to allow us to write an article about her. The current version of the article, consisting almost only of plot summary and in-universe descriptions in violation of WP:WAF and possibly WP:OR, is an indication of that. I would delete and userfy the article now, without prejudice to recreation in a less plot-heavy form if and when good sources become available. Sandstein 07:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- (Changed to neutral after improvements, see below. Sandstein 11:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC))
- Return to a redirect I agree, the outcome of the last AFD was correct in my mind. I'd suggest that the page be redirected again and protected to enforce the outcome. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 07:45, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 07:50, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 07:50, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 07:51, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Keep as a separate page
With all due respect, I strongly disagree with the above statement. There are 3 reasons why I disagree with this statement...
1. As Sandstein noted, the character is a major character in a very notable TV series. She's a member of the current "Team Avatar", which is analogous to the previous iteration of "Team Avatar" seen in the original version of the Avatar series (Avatar the Last Airbender). All characters of the previous iteration of "Team Avatar" have their own pages. Separate pages are being planned (if allowed) for the two other members of Legend of Korra's "Team Avatar" (Bolin & Mako), for the lead characters' mentor (Tenzin) who wasn't part of the Team but played a major role in the series and perhaps Lin, who was a major character in the series, but was not as prominent as Tenzin. It would be inconsistent if members of this iteration of "Team Avatar" who pretty much played a similar role as the previous version of the team, does not have separate pages.
2. The character, along with the lead character, are the first two of their kind. They are the first major LGBT characters featured in an children's animated TV Show produced in the west. She is part of a historic moment. That in itself makes her a noteworthy character.
3. The character was not just the lead's romantic interest. She did not officially become the lead's romantic interest until the last episode of the series. She played a major role overall in the series, particularly in the series' third season. While the character's current page needs work, she was involved enough in the series to have enough material to warrant her a separate page. This last statement is true of the rest of "Team Avatar" as well as Tenzin and perhaps Lin. G. Capo ( talk) 17:35, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- All of this is broadly true, but not relevant in light of our inclusion rules,
WP:N and
WP:V. What matters for the purpose of having an article is whether there are reliable third-party sources that have covered her in some depth. Without such sources, there is just not enough material for an article.
Sandstein 17:50, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- Was the same criteria used for the original Avatar the Last Airbender characters or have criteria changed since then? For example, Momo has his own page. Not picking on the cute character, but it seems a little odd to me that Momo has a separate page, but not Bolin, Mako or Tenzin. Asami Sato (for now) has a page, but her page is currently being debated. This though is not true for Momo.
G. Capo (
talk) 21:45, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- That is indeed also not a notable character and I've nominated the article for deletion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Momo (Avatar: The Last Airbender) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iroh. Sandstein 22:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Was the same criteria used for the original Avatar the Last Airbender characters or have criteria changed since then? For example, Momo has his own page. Not picking on the cute character, but it seems a little odd to me that Momo has a separate page, but not Bolin, Mako or Tenzin. Asami Sato (for now) has a page, but her page is currently being debated. This though is not true for Momo.
G. Capo (
talk) 21:45, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Delete the present content per Sandstein - no reliable sources, and there's nothing to say about the character that can't be covered in a short sentence in the parent article; nothing has changed since this was last discussed. Almost all the current content is plagiarised from http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Asami_Sato, as this report shows ( G. Capo please take note: plagiarism is not acceptable here). There is no possible reason to keep it, but if it should by any chance be kept then it would require proper attribution. Naturally, I'd have no objection to a fully-protected redirect as proposed by Callanecc. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 18:24, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Noted the article has been reworked, so it reads more like a article and less like a fan page. The article is noticeably different from the wikia version.
G. Capo (
talk) 21:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- But there are still no third-party sources cited about the character herself, only about the relationship she and Korra share in the series's finale. Sandstein 21:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Retain She is literally only the second canon major LGBT character in American children's animation, along with her girlfriend. That speaks critically to notoriety. (eta: I agree with a rewrite and shortening. My retain applies to degree of notability, rather than the specific current contents. But the notoriety given the cultural impact is pretty much a no-brainer to my view.) Solarbird ( talk) 08:23, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Either way is fine with me, she is one of the main characters in the show. One objection I have is about the unnecessary amount of text, especially regarding her role in the last two seasons. -- Killuminator ( talk) 16:30, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- I am also volunteering to help clean it up, because I agree the current version is not awesome. Having only participated in a few deletion votes, I'm not sure when one might start doing that, though.
Solarbird (
talk) 20:56, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- @
Solarbird: you should start doing it right away, so that more people will be swayed to !vote "keep".
G S Palmer (
talk •
contribs) 21:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Regarding characters, I would support creating a page that lists all characters of some renown, the Last Airbender has one (Korra is listed there for some weird reason), but the Legend of Korra characters are all lumped together on the page about the show itself, and it's an atrocious thing to read. I would also support some villain pages (Amon and Zaheer specifically). -- Killuminator ( talk) 13:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- @
Solarbird: you should start doing it right away, so that more people will be swayed to !vote "keep".
G S Palmer (
talk •
contribs) 21:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- I am also volunteering to help clean it up, because I agree the current version is not awesome. Having only participated in a few deletion votes, I'm not sure when one might start doing that, though.
Solarbird (
talk) 20:56, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 19:36, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Redirect: While this is exactly the kind of detailed "revolting fancruft" that
Penny Arcade once chided Wikipedia for removing, this character is a minor (not "major", as claimed above) one on the show, and does not appear in most episodes. Regards the LGBT discussions above, this (alleged) aspect of her character is not in evidence (or at least not prominently enough for me to have noticed, and I've watched this series) in the cartoon. The text of the accompanying "final shot" picture is baloney (the ref is to a claim that the creators have confirmed the two are a romantic couple in their Twitter feeds -- I have no idea if that's true, but the cartoon itself does not imply so, and in no episode has it ever been implied they had the hots for one another). Given the apparent coatrack/agenda-smuggling, a redirect is the best solution.--
Раціональне анархіст (
talk) 19:45, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- The pioneering role of the series in portraying Asami Sato in a bisexual relationship with the lead character, Korra, is actually well attested in reliable sources, see
The Legend of Korra (season 4)#Reception. But that, as I said, is a feature of the series as a whole, not of this individual character.
Sandstein 21:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- You didn't listen to what I said: none of that is in evidence in the show. In the show, they're just friends. (The practice of artistic creators offering "new" explanations which they expect certain listeners will find enticing is hardly new, for example Rawlins "outing" Dumbledore as gay in her Harry Potter franchise despite that never being hinted at in the books themselves. They're smart enough to know when a new target audience is waiting with baited-breathe for their answer.)--
Раціональне анархіст (
talk) 14:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- The assertion that none of that is in evidence in the show is a flat opinion that is contradicted in a non-relevant way by thousands of fans, and also by the explicit statements of the writers (who started working towards it in Book 3 and 4, by their statements) and by dozens of articles linked here ( /info/en/?search=Talk:Korra_(The_Legend_of_Korra)#The_Big_List_of_Korra-Asami_Relationship_Sources ). While it is certainly possible to ignore it, with some work, the authors themselves suggested that the material be rewatched without "hetero glasses" to re-evaluate that opinion. You may also be interested in the relevance of " bisexual erasure" and "lesbian invisibility," both of which can be found discussed here on Wikipedia in various articles. Solarbird ( talk) 21:55, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- You didn't listen to what I said: none of that is in evidence in the show. In the show, they're just friends. (The practice of artistic creators offering "new" explanations which they expect certain listeners will find enticing is hardly new, for example Rawlins "outing" Dumbledore as gay in her Harry Potter franchise despite that never being hinted at in the books themselves. They're smart enough to know when a new target audience is waiting with baited-breathe for their answer.)--
Раціональне анархіст (
talk) 14:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- The pioneering role of the series in portraying Asami Sato in a bisexual relationship with the lead character, Korra, is actually well attested in reliable sources, see
The Legend of Korra (season 4)#Reception. But that, as I said, is a feature of the series as a whole, not of this individual character.
Sandstein 21:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keep: I've found, to my surprise, a number of sources that have spoken about this character apart from her romantic relationship with the main character of the series. I will continue to search for more and prove that this character is notable. I believe this character merits a separate article, along with a few others from the series (namely Bolin, Mako and possibly Tenzin). - Informant16 3 January 2015
- Delete or Redirect. This article should not have been created, and qualifies under speedy deletion criterion WP:G4. The character is not notable outside of Legend of Korra and as a result does not stand to have a standalone article. Whatever content that is mergable should be merged to respectable articles. Tutelary ( talk) 03:55, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- My acquaintance, did you read the article? I've added multiple sources. This has all been done within the last two or three hours so check out the latest revision before you make any further comments. Also the character may only be notable in the series, but what is the excuse for Korra, who is also exclusive to the series? Also if we are just going on appearing in Avatar related media, then you should delete every page for every character barring Aang and I believe Katara since they are the only two to appear in non-Avatar games to my knowledge. See how pointless that would be? I'm not understanding how you could determine she is not notable when I've, again, found multiple sources about this character aside from her relationship with Korra.
Momentous 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- I have, and the vast majority of them seem to focus on Asami Sato's relationship with Korra, and while that does have a good amount of citations, is a one event and about their relationship, not specifically about Asami herself. (Tangentially, though.) They need to discuss Asami in depth, and only one or two citations have met that requirement. The rest have all mentioned Asami in the context of a single episode or specifically on Korra and Asami's relationship. There's also a few citations which seem to be wikis (unreliable) and primary sources (can't be used to demonstrate notability). Tutelary ( talk) 00:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- I've particularly been focusing on STEM / Business Leader commentary myself, and have added more. I think that's important material.
Solarbird (
talk) 00:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Changed nomination to neutral. Several editors have much improved the article, but there's still far too much in-universe material and use of unreliable sources such as blogs, while the reliable sources touch on Asami only in passing. The sourcing is not always stringent, too: the lead's assertion that "she is half of the first major acknowledged LGBT couple in western children's animation", while likely true, is not supported by the cited reference. Sandstein 11:39, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- My acquaintance, did you read the article? I've added multiple sources. This has all been done within the last two or three hours so check out the latest revision before you make any further comments. Also the character may only be notable in the series, but what is the excuse for Korra, who is also exclusive to the series? Also if we are just going on appearing in Avatar related media, then you should delete every page for every character barring Aang and I believe Katara since they are the only two to appear in non-Avatar games to my knowledge. See how pointless that would be? I'm not understanding how you could determine she is not notable when I've, again, found multiple sources about this character aside from her relationship with Korra.
Momentous 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keep per improvements in sourcing/out-of-universe relevance since nomination. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keep per G. Capo and the amount/kind of references the article currently has. If the article does end up being removed, I'd prefer to see it turned into a redirect. However, I'm afraid that the encyclopedic content of this article can't be moved elsewhere without weight issues. The plot aspect needs to be cleaned up heavily, as non-fans of the series don't really need to know all that much about her role in the show. Even if that section were removed entirely (which I don't see as a bad idea, with the character overview section in place), the article would still have a good length to it. ~ Mable ( chat) 12:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keep Character is notable not only in respect to LGTB, but also within the series. Also, the article has been significantly improved. Luthien22 ( talk) 03:22, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.