- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Star Mississippi 01:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Alma-0
AfDs for this article:
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This fails WP: N. This page has a pretty unfortunate history with AfDs, but the issue of sourcing still remains. The papers that discuss the language in depth are primary, and its citations are brief mentions of the language itself. HyperAccelerated ( talk) 04:12, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Computing and Software. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 08:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I don't see what has changed from the last three (!) AfDs, and the sources (of which there are nine) look okay to me.
jp×
g
🗯️
01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Did you read the AfD rationale, which points out that the sources are either primary or not in-depth? The previous AfDs discussed citation counts and number of hits on Google, which are not valid rationales for keeping an article. Similarly, the number of sources an article has doesn't have anything to do with whether it should be kept. HyperAccelerated ( talk) 16:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Weak keep: Looking at
the citations of the most cited paper, there is independent sigcov such as
[1] and
[2].
Aaron Liu (
talk)
22:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Your "independent sigcov" was authored by the same people who wrote the "most cited paper" that you're referring to. Those sources are not independent and cannot be used to establish notability.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
13:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I put a wrong link for [1], apologies. I meant to put
[3]. [2] is still independent.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
15:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- [2] was written by Brunekreef, who also was an author on the original paper proposing the language. It is a primary source. [3] is a very short paragraph in the related work section of a paper that doesn't actually build on top of Alma-0. It is not significant coverage. None of the sources you provided can be used to establish notability.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
15:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, weirdly the article lists him as Brunekree while the paper calls him Brunekeef. Interesting how a single letter can create such a large visual difference.
As long as something isn't trivial mention, it's significant coverage. The RAPID paper presents an entire paragraph of details to compare with RAPID built on top of them. You also still have the other results that cited the ALMA paper. Aaron Liu ( talk) 16:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)- Your claimed threshold for significance is arbitrarily low and self-serving. It needs to discuss the subject directly and in detail, and this source does neither. The "entire paragraph" you claim establishes notability discusses the subject in relation to another language (i.e. not directly) and is only a few sentences in a 13-page paper that discusses something else entirely (i.e. not in detail). You've also done nothing to show that the other results can establish notability either.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
16:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It addresses it directly and in detail. In the context of something else means that it's another topic, not that it's not directly. In fact, SIGCOV directly says that
it does not need to be the main topic of the source material
. Just that it's "a few sentences" does not mean these sentences don't have detail. All normal paragraphs have just a few sentences (in this case, 6). The paragraph details Alma-0's semantics, nature, and statements.Other sources include [4] which talks about how Alma-0 is "pure dynamic predicate logic". Aaron Liu ( talk) 16:52, 31 May 2024 (UTC)- Right, I understand that it needs not be the primary subject of the article, but I still don't believe this discusses the subject directly.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
17:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It says "Alma-0 is... Alma-0 uses dynamics in this way..." instead of "Apt made a language called Alma-0. Apt then got married." or "Dynamic languages include Alpha-G0, Alma-0, Aleph-0...", ergo it is direct.I also don't think you can dispute [4].
Aaron Liu (
talk)
17:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Can you add those sources to the article?
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
18:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I will have a problem with adding [4] because it has a ton of technical maths language I don't understand. The other one maybe.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
19:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- You've brought forth two sources that you failed to realize weren't secondary, a source that only meets your arbitrary standard of notability, and a source that you admitted you don't understand. I don't think there's much more of a discussion to be had here. If these are the best sources you could find, this article should be deleted. HyperAccelerated ( talk) 19:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I will have a problem with adding [4] because it has a ton of technical maths language I don't understand. The other one maybe.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
19:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Can you add those sources to the article?
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
18:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It says "Alma-0 is... Alma-0 uses dynamics in this way..." instead of "Apt made a language called Alma-0. Apt then got married." or "Dynamic languages include Alpha-G0, Alma-0, Aleph-0...", ergo it is direct.I also don't think you can dispute [4].
Aaron Liu (
talk)
17:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Right, I understand that it needs not be the primary subject of the article, but I still don't believe this discusses the subject directly.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
17:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It addresses it directly and in detail. In the context of something else means that it's another topic, not that it's not directly. In fact, SIGCOV directly says that
- Your claimed threshold for significance is arbitrarily low and self-serving. It needs to discuss the subject directly and in detail, and this source does neither. The "entire paragraph" you claim establishes notability discusses the subject in relation to another language (i.e. not directly) and is only a few sentences in a 13-page paper that discusses something else entirely (i.e. not in detail). You've also done nothing to show that the other results can establish notability either.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
16:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, weirdly the article lists him as Brunekree while the paper calls him Brunekeef. Interesting how a single letter can create such a large visual difference.
- [2] was written by Brunekreef, who also was an author on the original paper proposing the language. It is a primary source. [3] is a very short paragraph in the related work section of a paper that doesn't actually build on top of Alma-0. It is not significant coverage. None of the sources you provided can be used to establish notability.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
15:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I put a wrong link for [1], apologies. I meant to put
[3]. [2] is still independent.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
15:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- How does me not understanding what [4] is saying have any bearing on it counting towards notability or not? We have a ton of technical topics, and they all meet notability. As far as I'm concerned, [3] only fails your arbitrary standard of directness notability. As long as something does not require OR to extract information and addresses the subject directly and in detail, it counts for SIGCOV. Just that a notable thing is niche doesn't mean we should not include it. Aaron Liu ( talk) 20:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- You cannot possibly explain why a source establishes notability if you don't understand it, and the onus is on you to show that a source can establish notability. Anything else is a massive waste of time for people who nominate articles for deletion. I've also made clear arguments based on the text of the definition of notability that [3] does not provide significant coverage -- there is no arbitrariness here. Again, what is there that's left to discuss?
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
20:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- What's your argument that bringing Alma-0 up for acknowledgement of inspiration isn't direct? Have you responded to
#c-Aaron_Liu-20240531174600-HyperAccelerated-20240531171800, which shows how it is not just
WP:TRIVIAL? Further, how would it be productive to delete this article? Have you seen the reasons the notability guideline exist? How does any of this impede us from having enough content to write articles if we get someone who understands formal computer science? I understand that the sources address the subject directly and in detail, and that is enough.
@ JPxG, would you like to comment? Aaron Liu ( talk) 20:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)- We have sourcing guidelines, and this article cannot meet those standards, specifically WP: NSOFT. One paragraph in one paper cannot establish notability and you haven't actually shown that the source that you don't understand establishes notability in any of the eight messages you've written. The sourcing concern still remains, so this article should be deleted. HyperAccelerated ( talk) 21:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I feel like what HA's asking for here is fairly extreme: the sources can't just talk about the programming language, they have to talk exclusively about the programming language, they have to do so in a way that's accessible to laymen, et cetera. I don't think we need to have whole textbooks written about a programming language for it to pass GNG.
- It's worth noting that the original papers specifying the language are published in journals, which is not just some guy's random website -- it's an editorial process where multiple people signed off on this language being worthy of note and constituting a contribution to the field.
- Overall, it just doesn't really seem to me like there's a reason to delete the article -- the guidelines are not normally interpreted in such a severe way -- and there's not a compelling reason to go out of our way to interpret them more severely here (there's no BLP issues, for example, and we're not getting paid cash bonuses based on how many AfDs close as delete).
jp×
g
🗯️
21:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm asking for evidence of significant coverage from multiple sources per
WP: NSOFT. That could be a paper discussing extensions of Alma-0 by independent researchers or a book chapter about programming languages. One paragraph in one article does not meet that bar, and neither does an article, regardless of its length, that nobody here understands. The authority of these sources isn't under question. If this protracted discussion results in the improvement of the article, I am more than happy to withdraw this AfD. However, I have yet to see evidence of this.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
21:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I have yet to see an argument for why us being too unintelligent to understand the paper's maths discounts it from notability. NSOFT does not have any mention of that and I don't think anyone can disagree that it's direct and in detail. Aaron Liu ( talk) 22:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm asking for evidence of significant coverage from multiple sources per
WP: NSOFT. That could be a paper discussing extensions of Alma-0 by independent researchers or a book chapter about programming languages. One paragraph in one article does not meet that bar, and neither does an article, regardless of its length, that nobody here understands. The authority of these sources isn't under question. If this protracted discussion results in the improvement of the article, I am more than happy to withdraw this AfD. However, I have yet to see evidence of this.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
21:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Also, [5] summarized it as "how dynamic predicate logic provides an adequate semantics for a non-trivial fragment of Alma-0, and how inference tools for dynamic predicate logic become verification tools for the hybrid programming language". Might be helpful in the future. Aaron Liu ( talk) 21:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- What's your argument that bringing Alma-0 up for acknowledgement of inspiration isn't direct? Have you responded to
#c-Aaron_Liu-20240531174600-HyperAccelerated-20240531171800, which shows how it is not just
WP:TRIVIAL? Further, how would it be productive to delete this article? Have you seen the reasons the notability guideline exist? How does any of this impede us from having enough content to write articles if we get someone who understands formal computer science? I understand that the sources address the subject directly and in detail, and that is enough.
- You cannot possibly explain why a source establishes notability if you don't understand it, and the onus is on you to show that a source can establish notability. Anything else is a massive waste of time for people who nominate articles for deletion. I've also made clear arguments based on the text of the definition of notability that [3] does not provide significant coverage -- there is no arbitrariness here. Again, what is there that's left to discuss?
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
20:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Your "independent sigcov" was authored by the same people who wrote the "most cited paper" that you're referring to. Those sources are not independent and cannot be used to establish notability.
HyperAccelerated (
talk)
13:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.