The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Deprodded without comment. No notability asserted out of universe. No sources. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?) 15:36, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete -
Oh my god, it's grotesque! Oh, and there's something in a jar. Unless significant sources can be presented, it doesn't have any real world notability. It's certainly an interesting read, but it's unsourced, gives no real world context, and fails
WP:GNG. It would probably be more appropriate
here (although they're already essentially the same content, so unless I'm missing something, there's not even really anything to "rescue" from this article). -
SudoGhost 16:58, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep - While the sources that I found and the ones that were inititally in the article were not adequate (to me), it seems more have been added since then, and after looking through them, I think it is notable enough for a standalone article (although stronger sources certainly wouldn't hurt). -
SudoGhost 02:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep The topic is discussed in detail in sources such as
this,
that and
more. It therefore passes the
WP:GNG and the complaints of the nomination are just a matter of ordinary editing per our
editing policy.
Warden (
talk) 17:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Those don't don't seem to be significant coverage, the first two have minimal mentions of the Alliance and only within in the context of the plot at a whole; this would support information in the main
Firefly (TV series) article but doesn't seem to warrant a separate article. There's very little in those sources to draw from; they would made good sources for supporting a brief summary in the main article, but not much else. -
SudoGhost 18:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
The sources fully meet the guidance of
WP:SIGCOV. The content obviously relates to other aspects of the show too but also draws parallels with real-world entities such as the real USA. As a separate article, the topic is comparable with
Galactic Empire (Star Wars),
Terran Federation (Blake's 7),
United Federation of Planets,
Instrumentality of Mankind and numerous other SF galactic empires. These are all separate articles and so there is nothing especially wrong about this topic being treated in this way too.
Warden (
talk) 18:44, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
The topic is comparable, but the sources are not. Nobody is saying it's not a valid topic and the fact that
there are similar articles doesn't mean that this one should exist on that merit alone. The coverage in those sources are not significant enough to warrant a separate article. -
SudoGhost 18:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
The sources in this case are superior to those other cases. That's because there is an extensive critical literature which we can draw from.
Warden (
talk) 09:17, 7 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Using
WP:OTHERSTUFF to show why these sources are better than other articles doesn't factor into an article being kept when the article fails to meet
WP:GNG. The sources are either independent and not significant coverage, or significant coverage and non-independent. Sources have to be significant coverage, independent, reliable, and third-party, not "best 3 out of 4". -
SudoGhost 18:21, 7 July 2012 (UTC)reply
WP:GNG is just a guideline which is supposed to summarise actual practise. Our actual practise is clearly to maintain articles at this level because we don't just have the four examples I listed, we have
dozens of them. Likewise, the sources listed already are quite adequate but that doesn't mean that's all. As another example, the book Investigating Firefly and Serenity contains an entire chapter about this topic: "The Alliance Isn't Some Evil Empire". Or we might look at The Alliance's War on Science in Serenity Found. Or Cultural Geography in Outer Space: East Meets West in Firefly and Serenity, and so on. And even if all those sources didn't support a great deal of content then all we'd do is just merge back up into some more general article like
Firefly (TV series),
Firefly media franchise or
galactic empire. There isn't any kind of case for deletion.
Warden (
talk) 19:26, 7 July 2012 (UTC)reply
See my response above. -
SudoGhost 02:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete Because what the article is is someone who watches the show telling us about it.
Borock (
talk) 17:50, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
You don't seem to have read the article which makes multiple references to Joss Whedon's views and creative intentions. This is not material which is derived simply from watching the show but instead corresponds to the material found in the numerous sources such as the ones I cite above.
Warden (
talk) 18:11, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep I added in one reference to a book. To understand this notable series you need to understand all the important aspects of it. And you can find ample coverage of it.
DreamFocus 20:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
So...
WP:ITSIMPORTANT then? The primary article for Firefly is more than capable of describing this aspect; the lack of significant reliable sources shows it's not as critical as all that. A brief non-significant and non-independent mention in a book does not warrant a separate article. -
SudoGhost 21:36, 5 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete Just plot (
WP:NOT#PLOT) and
WP:Original research based on observation of the plot. For this kind of fictional element, I doubt there's much real-world information to start with to sustain the in-universe info for a spinout article (this organisation can't be produced, designed, or received, and the creator's inspiration for this certainly fits in the main article without this extra article). –
sgeurekat•
c 08:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep per the Colonel and Dream. Several sources with out of universe analyses have been added. Even the in-universe information is of considerable encyclopaedic and cultural value.
FeydHuxtable (
talk) 19:41, 6 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep oh look! It's the same set of voices as the
Browncoat and
Reaver (Firefly) AfD debates. On both sides, pretty much. And just like those debates, this one is characterized by those arguing for keeping the article having plenty of adequate sources to meet the GNG. BUT, even if it weren't so, the content could clearly be merged to another Firefly or Serenity article, per
WP:ATD: just because the article was not adequately sourced when the AfD was started does not mean that any of this content is un-sourceable.
Jclemens (
talk) 02:13, 7 July 2012 (UTC)reply
That's a rant about editors (an inaccurate one at that), not a keep rationale.
WP:GNG requies significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. -
SudoGhost 03:47, 7 July 2012 (UTC)reply
You want me to be less subtle? OK: it meets the GNG through the non-trivial independent reliable sources listed above.
Jclemens (
talk) 04:45, 7 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Hastily gathering any source that happens to use the word "Alliance" in it is not significant coverage, and interviews are not independent sources. None of those sources show notability, but rather reinforce the fact that it belongs in the main article, not as a standalone. Verifiabile does not mean notable. -
SudoGhost 18:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC) See my reply above) -
SudoGhost 02:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep While the Alliance isn't the main topic of the sources, I think they provide more than trivial mentions, which satisfies the "significant coverage" criterion in the
WP:GNG. I agree that the article is written in primarily an in-universe style, but it should be
expanded or re-written to emphasize the real-world perspective,
not deleted.
Braincricket (
talk) 09:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.