The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:46, 9 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Albert Blithe

Albert Blithe (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Albert Blithe was an NCO in the U.S. Army. He served in World War II, the Korean War, and the Cold War. He was in E Company, 506th PIR during World War II until wounded in Normandy. He was discharged after the War but later re-enlisted and served until 1967, dying on active duty. Blithe rose to he rank of master sergeant; his highest award was the Silver Star. Neither Blithe's rank nor his highest award qualify him for inclusion under WP:SOLDIER. His only "claim to fame" is being mis-identified by the producers of the Band of Brothers mini-series as having died in 1948. He has no general notability. Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:00, 9 March 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:02, 9 March 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:02, 9 March 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:02, 9 March 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete or possibly merge the notable bit into the Band of Brothers article. A before search brings up a lot of Band of Brothers fan websites. Not notable under WP:SOLDIER. I appreciate the detailed reasoning given by nominator. SportingFlyer talk 05:54, 9 March 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep Passes WP:GNG as there is good detailed coverage of his life and so his rank is irrelevant. Andrew D. ( talk) 16:50, 9 March 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment: WP:SOLDIER, like all other special-purpose notability standards, is a supplement to the WP:GNG, not a replacement. If Blithe passes the GNG -- and I see TWO book references listed, something the nominator failed to mention -- then it's not a slamdunk. -- Calton | Talk 15:37, 10 March 2018 (UTC) reply
  • In those book references, is there a mention of Blythe having done something notable?-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 16:13, 10 March 2018 (UTC) reply
    • Why don't YOU actually answer that clumsy rhetorical question? -- Calton | Talk 02:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC) reply
    • Okay, the answer is no, there isn't. And the question wasn't rhetorical. Blythe didn't do anything particularly notable. I've read the books (or excerpts where the whole book wasn't available to me). The fact that the same information gets regurgitated over and over doesn't make an individual any more notable. Blythe jumped into Normandy, got shot, was evacuated and died in '48 except he didn't really die. He served in Korea and earned a silver star but we have no details. He was a career soldier. He died on active duty of a perforated ulcer. Would you like to add anything?-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 12:59, 12 March 2018 (UTC) reply
      • It isn't what he did but rather that his notability stems from where others have written about him. The mistaken history is an issue of notability itself. What did this one do? Seems to be much less than Blithe...see why that line of questioning is a slippery slope?
         —  Berean Hunter (talk) 14:38, 12 March 2018 (UTC) reply
        • I don't think Richard Colvin Cox did anything notable; the page is a better tale about Maihafer or Jacobs. Getting back to Blithe, if ninety-nine people said in ninety-nine books that they knew him before and during Normandy, that doesn't make him notable because he's not well known for something he did. He's just a guy whose fellow unit members lost track of him. He attended the first reunion of the division association and no one said, "Hey, I thought you were dead." We wouldn't have pages on any of these guys if they hadn't inherited their fame from the TV series, possibly even Sink (We have a lot of red-linked generals). Almost all of the guys who appeared in the books had their "life stories featured..." No, they didn't. The books are filled with anecdotes about the men.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 01:22, 13 March 2018 (UTC) reply
  • The context of coverage matters too. The article notes: "Blithe's life story was featured in the 2010 book A Company of Heroes: Personal Memories about the Real Band of Brothers and the Legacy They Left Us." "Featured" needs clarification: was he mentioned in passing or did he have a whole chapter? Also, and importantly, the Amazon.com description notes: "Compiled from the veterans' notes, journals, letters, photographs, and the author's personally conducted interviews with the surviving contributors, this unique volume features the never-before-told stories of the Band of Brothers from more than twenty children and other family members". Thus, this book appears to primarily consist of primary sources and non-independent sources, which do not count much towards notability. If WP:GNG is not significantly satisfied, then a redirect E Company, 506th Infantry Regiment (United States) would be preferable to deletion. --Animalparty! ( talk) 21:59, 10 March 2018 (UTC) reply
    • A certain dose of common sense would help when considering context. What you think of as a primary source is actually the reliable source here as it was used to refute Ambrose's book. It's completely valid and has been vetted so you can't dismiss it that easily...its viewpoints prevail and not Ambrose's/Warren's.
       —  Berean Hunter (talk) 23:30, 10 March 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep per GNG. In addition to the book by Stephen Ambrose, the following books discuss him and lend to his notability:
  • A Company of Heroes by Brotherton
  • Beyond Band of Brothers by Winters
  • Brothers in Battle, Best of Friends by Guarnere and Heffron
  • In the Footsteps of the Band of Brothers by Alexander (another secondary source)
  • We Who Are Alive and Remain: Untold Stories from the Band of Brothers by Brotherton
     —  Berean Hunter (talk) 23:30, 10 March 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment - I don't find significant mention of Blithe in newspapers.com or elsewhere beyond BoB-universe material. Smmurphy^{( Talk)} 21:32, 12 March 2018 (UTC) reply

My non-!vote comes from a different view from those above and as I haven't written out my view on BoB articles for a while, I'll write it here. After reading more about the BoB-verse, I came to view Ambrose's role not to be one of historian, but of something slightly different. In particular, Ambrose's innacuracies do not seem to be accidental, but represent a number of different things, including an interest in telling a compelling story and an interest in representing his (Ambrose's) point of view. Among the former could be writing that Blithe died in 1948 - Ambrose did not bother checking records on this, an ommission in favor of storytelling which a historian would likely have double checked. More allarming, and not so related to Blithe, are Ambrose's own prejudices and discriminatory feelings (this issue has left a serious tinge on my reading of Ambrose as a NPOV source). Having thought about these issues, my position is that Ambrose is a story-teller and his characters are based on real people but his books are not academic-quality histories. With this in mind, books related to his (in shorthand, these are a part of the BoB-verse) share in the same issues to some degree. There are authors who cover the same subject but do not follow Ambrose, Ian Gardner is an example (Gardner may have his own problems, but to me they seem independent of Ambrose's). There are also articles about the books or shows which discuss the individuals as characters in the miniseries, which if in-depth enough could lead to their suitability in the same way other fictional or semi-fictional characters are suitable for articles (but I haven't seen this). In any case, for a character in the BoB-verse to have sources required for a NPOV article, I think there should be coverage by people who are outside of the BoB-verse (for instance, a historian who publishes in an academic press and uses footnotes would be nice; Brotherton, Winters, Ambrose, Garner, etc all fail on this point, I think) or at least who write from a perspective clearly independent of Ambrose (Gardner is my example). For BoB figures who do not meet this standard, I think the pages are fine, but they fail NPOV. I hesitate to support such an article at AfD if I cannot improve the article, and thus I try to find independent, in-depth coverage. If I don't find it, I tend to make a note to that effect and move on.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I disagree with the view that Blithe shouldn't have an article because he didn't do anything wiktionary:notable. I don't care if multiple sources are accidental or inherited, if sources exist that allow a NPOV, NOR, V article, I think it is suitable for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, I do not feel Ambrose is sufficiently NPOV for his writing and writing derived from his to be clearly NPOV. On yet another hand, I do not feel that Ambrose's issues are so severe that articles based on his writing are obviously not suitable. In such a situation, I actively abstain. Smmurphy^{( Talk)} 18:32, 13 March 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete. All the references seem to relate to Band of Brothers. No independent notability. Just another one of the soldiers mentioned in that and written about since because they were mentioned in that. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:54, 14 March 2018 (UTC) reply
• Weak keep - the cited book coverage combined with media coverage of his character in the series makes this barely meet WP:GNG and so it's a weak keep. Here's some of the info from one of the books for those of you who'd like to read it. Perhaps this would be a better source for the info since it's more accessible. [ [1]]. Here's another brief mention in another book that's not listed: [ [2]] TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC) reply

• Comment: There's an on-going discussion at Talk:Albert Blithe about whether Blithe wore decorations which had not been awarded to him. That's not why I started the AfD but the page is worth a scan.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 20:55, 29 March 2018 (UTC) reply
• Delete: does not meet WP:SOLDIER and coverage is insufficient under WP:ANYBIO. K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:13, 30 March 2018 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.