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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Michig ( talk) 08:04, 4 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Ahd Tamimi

Ahed Tamimi (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
(was: Ahd Tamimi (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)) – ( View log · Stats)
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Case of WP:1E. — cnzx 23:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC) reply

  • So what exactly is the "Hanzala Award for Courage"? If you look it up, the results are all associated with Ahd Tamimi. — cnzx 00:27, 21 December 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Happy holidays! Baby miss fortune 02:38, 21 December 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Happy holidays! Baby miss fortune 02:38, 21 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete she assaulted a soldier. This is not a sign of notability. Wikipedia is not news, and her actions are not even newsworthy. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:44, 21 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ Johnpacklambert: The assaulted soldier is her enemy. "A kid against a heavily armed soldier" event, do you consider this as common news!?-- Safe My Edit ( talk) 20:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ Johnpacklambert: she assaulted a soldier — how does that allow you to ignore the rest of the history? And from there, claim irrelevance? The article was not started because she hit a soldier. Not at all. - DePiep ( talk) 20:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply

* Keep WP:1E cannot be fairly applied in certain notable cases. Take Tank Man for instance, was this a case of 1E? Yes, the significance is much bigger in my example, but just to claim that the above mentioned article is 1E but this isn't is not fair. Also, the child gained her notability years before the recent events in a well known video in 2013 or 2012. This individual has more events than tank man. -- Amr ( talk) 18:37, 21 December 2017 (UTC) per WP:ARBPIA3#500/30-- Shrike ( talk) 08:36, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply

  • This can't be compared to tank man yet -- it is way WP:TOOSOON to tell and is a case of WP:RECENTISM. Also, I couldn't find anything about a "well known video" from 2012 to 2013 either in the article or on the internet. — cnzx 19:02, 21 December 2017 (UTC) reply
    • @ Cnzx: The subject of the article was awarded a Turkish award in 2012 as a response for a video that went viral of her standing against a soldier. The achievements of the subject of the article are significant considering her age. Notability must consider her age. -- Amr ( talk) 23:46, 21 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Ahd Tamimi is not among the very few 16 year olds who deserves a WP:BLP...even Malia and Sasha Obama do not have their own BLPs, Huldra ( talk) 21:03, 22 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ Huldra: I think this depends on the significance of the events which these characters involved in...The event of Ahed as a kid stands alone against her heavily armed enemy cannot be compared with a single event of the above celebrities.-- Safe My Edit ( talk) 20:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ Safe My Edit: I am very sceptical to starting any new BLP on en.wp of any person who is critical to Israel, unless such a person is clearly notable. This because I've seen again and again and again that "magically" there will appear editors who will push for including any, absolutely any critical stuff there is about a subject into the article. See Talk:Linda Sarsour to see what I mean. If she continues her activism, then sure, she will one day have her BLP. But now is just too early, IMO, Huldra ( talk) 20:31, 23 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ Huldra: I am not exactly sure whether you were talking about me in this case or not, but just to be clear I have been a user of Arabic Wikipedia since 2007 and I do have over 10k edits on there (so i am not "magically" here) and I am a very professional in what I do and do not let my personal views affect the quality or violate the rules of the wiki. I treat the subject of the article with complete neutrality. I would NOT have voted to keep the article if I did not see it was fit to be kept on Wikipedia. Please read my comment once more and let's discuss the technicality of it rather than just throwing favoritism and Non-neutrality accusations on each others and hopefully the community will reach a decision about this. Thank you. -- Amr ( talk) 22:26, 24 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ عمرو:, No, I was definitely not talking about you, (you have never even edited the Linda Sarsour article, AFAIK), I was talking about the fact that some people will fight to have each and every thing which is perceived negative about her, plus a lot of fake news ..like from Michael Oren: [1] into her article. Huldra ( talk) 22:07, 26 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Huldra I can expand the article if it is not deleted. I saw some of the "magic" you were talking about: why she slapped the soldiers was conveniently overlooked in the article before I added a sentence. I hope you can reaccess your position because I assure you I will be objective in re-writing the article. TheGracefulSlick ( talk) 04:51, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • TheGracefulSlick I don't doubt you, but I see the wiki-wolfs have started circling this article already....What you mention is so typical: only mentioning the reaction, and not what provoked it. Sigh. Huldra ( talk) 20:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Malia and Sasha Obama do not have their own BLPs because they have not done anything of significance during their lives that the other 31 living children of US presidents don't do. The subject of the article on the other hand, did. She was noticed first in 2013 and was repeatedly mentioned on different occasions since then so she is absolutely not WP:1E IMO. I would not have supported to keep an article about a 30 years old person who stood against a solider, however, when we are talking about a child who have done this multiple times and got noticed enough by the Israeli government to be arrested from her house (an arresting team was sent to her NOT detained during a protest), that becomes completely different story. Tank Man's action are important to be recorded because many people believe it is important although its clear 1E, however, The subject of this article is not. -- Amr ( talk) 22:39, 24 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Amr, take a look at the other articles in the Wikipedia category "Palestinian activists" and you will be hard-pressed to find someone with coverage as scant as Tamimi. -- Jprg1966 (talk) 22:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Jprg1966 That is a bad argument. Wikipedia does not count as a WP:RS! IOW, your argument says, like: "Wikipedia does not mention it, so we should not mention it". Also, I find the reasoning by عمرو (Amr) convincing, and pleasant reading. - DePiep ( talk) 01:15, 30 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • re Huldra: These are your responses in this AfD thread: 1 2 3 4 5. In these, apart from mentioning "1E" occasionally, you did not argue on the merits and faults of the article. Instead I read (generic) personal attacks/BF accusations to fellow editors, whataboutery, and "BLP of any person who is critical" POV bias. Please keep the discussion level of this thread above. - DePiep ( talk) 11:59, 31 December 2017 (UTC) reply

*Redirect for now to List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2017. It is WP:TOOSOON to establish lasting significance warranting an article for her, with coverage too closely tied to one event and not centered in major media. However, the incident in which her cousin was shot and she slapped the soldier would be notable enough for the list I linked to. -- Jprg1966 (talk) 21:29, 26 December 2017 (UTC) * Keep  : i think this article must be kept... There's many sources, and articles all over the world about her ! So it's ok for one on Wikipedia Sg7438 ( talk) 10:52, 25 December 2017 (UTC)per WP:ARBPIA3#500/30-- Shrike ( talk) 08:41, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply

  • Keep Even broader coverage has emerged of the user in the last few days, and editors have included some older references in the article from reliable sources, such as major Turkish media. I'm changing my vote. -- Jprg1966 (talk) 05:33, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply

* Keep  : She's a famous girl, why wanna delete the article?. Anassalama3 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:44, 27 December 2017 (UTC) per WP:ARBPIA3#500/30-- Shrike ( talk) 08:36, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply

  • N.b. this is the user's first edit on Wikipedia. -- Jprg1966 (talk) 13:18, 27 December 2017 (UTC) reply

*Keep Benoni ( talk) 22:16, 27 December 2017 (UTC) per WP:ARBPIA3#500/30-- Shrike ( talk) 08:36, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 03:33, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 04:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Even though you ignored my question about the Hanzala Award for Courage above, Safe My Edit, do you mind explaining why you've been editing the page in violation of WP:ARBPIA3#500/30? — cnzx ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per 1E. None of the keep !votes have advanced convincing rationales and some have advanced no rationale at all. Lepricavark ( talk) 04:20, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
Please continue reading below. - DePiep ( talk) 02:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep While the current article does not make this obvious, she is at 3E at least, and probably at 6E, where she received wide and significant coverage. Icewhiz ( talk) 05:00, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ Icewhiz: I'm not trying to be snarky, but what are these 6E? I'm having trouble finding anything other than the IDF incident. Frankly, she doesn't even seem to be the most famous person with this name. — cnzx ( talk • contribs) 05:07, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • I will source this shortly (in the article) - but off the top of my head - the incident when she was ~13 and was filmed berating/threatening a group a solders. Her subsequent award from Erdogan (president of Turkey). The incident where she was filmed biting the hand of a soldier attempting to arrest a stronethrower. And the current event. All of these had SIGCOV - that's at least 4E. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:08, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • @ Cnzx: I improved the sourcing in the article + added incidents. Note her name in English (and to a lesser extent in Hebrew) has approx. 10 different spelling variations which complicates sourcing. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:56, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. She assaulted a soldier. This is not a significant sign of notability. Tankman and the Tiananmen Square helped create a major shift in Chinese society. What she did is not doing the same. The Israel vs. Palestinian conflict did not shift in a perceptible way because of what she did. Knox490 ( talk) 05:27, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:TOOSOON and WP:BLP1E-- Shrike ( talk) 08:30, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
    @ Shrike: How are 6 separate events BPL1E? Icewhiz ( talk) 08:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Notability to have a WP:STANDALONE article is not decided by what she has or has not done or any such merit. The bar that must be passed is the guideline on general notability: WP:GNG, which is determined by verifying WP:V significant coverage WP:SIGCOV in WP:RS sources. Sources must treat the main subject of the article in depth, beyond WP:TRIVIALMENTION. Imho there are many sources who discuss her and her actions so the subject lives up to GNG. AadaamS ( talk) 08:50, 28 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - Tamimi has been covered various times since 2012 and has surpassed just being news or an one-event wonder. TheGracefulSlick ( talk) 04:09, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: there is far more coverage of 'Ahed Tamimi' than 'Ahd Tamimi'. I have therefore moved the page to use this spelling. As Icewhiz notes, there are several spelling variations of her name, so redirects should be added from those variations if the page is kept. Dsp13 ( talk) 10:51, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per the general reasons given by AadaamS. Dsp13 ( talk) 10:51, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I am surprised that editors can reduce the week-long developing story to a "1EVENT" second. It was a string of events, with multiple parties involved, and violence (shooting). Then, there are these events in history too (December 2012, August 2015). At this moment the article has 30 RS's, from about 25 outlets. These are not repetitions of a "1E" incident, this is RS coverage of a multi-faceted development. Also, above, AadaamS describes it well. - DePiep ( talk) 20:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply

*Delete for now. She is only 16! ...ok, if she keeps up as she has started, she will sooner or later get a BLP. I would prefer that to be later, rather than sooner. (OK, so I'm extremely conservative when it comes to WP:BLPs, especially in the I/P area. For a reason: Most of the BLPs in the area are completely shitty...) Huldra ( talk) 20:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply

Huldra already !voted [2]. - DePiep ( talk) 21:33, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
I don't think your personal opinion, expressed in saying "completely shitty" and judging by here age only, is how we should judge articles. You expect me to discuss "shitty"-ness? Or your lack of even looking at our basic guidelines? - DePiep ( talk) 21:30, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
Sorry, User:DePiep, I thought this was a new vote, and that we needed to vote again. Basically it is by WP:1E. If you think being arrested in Nabi Salih is something exceptional, then you are mistaken. It is the rule, more than an exception. The same thing happens to hundreds of teenagers every year on the West Bank. Her cousin was also arrested, ...but no-one has asked for an article for her? Huldra ( talk) 21:43, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
Well, your "shitty" remark is stroken, but my reply to it still stands. I am still waiting for your first comment that addresses this AfD truly regarding content-versus-guidelines. - DePiep ( talk) 23:51, 29 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per WP:RAPID. The article was only newly created and then nominated for deletion only one day after the arrest. It has now been 11 days since the arrest and there is still continuing coverage so the AfD seems somewhat premature. This person has had coverage in the news since 2012 (also showing WP:PERSISTENCE) so WP:1E doe not apply. -- Millionsandbillions ( talk) 19:14, 30 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep -- I see developing WP:PERSISTENCE. There are editorials such as Why is the West praising Malala, but ignoring Ahed? by Al Jazeera, etc. The legal case against Tamimi continues, so we are likely to see continued coveraged. Keep for now; reassess perhaps in 6 mo, if needed. K.e.coffman ( talk) 22:59, 30 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Plenty of ongoing press coverage of the case. bogdan ( talk) 19:46, 31 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I was about to say almost exactly the same as bogdan above, plus the "viral" aspect of it. Keep for now at least, useful article.-- Calthinus ( talk) 23:06, 31 December 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Speedy keep Famous activist. -- Panam2014 ( talk) 00:26, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Speedy keep per AadaamS. On a side note, the discussion immediatly turned political and most people here don't really care about wikipedia rules, they only argue due to their personal opinion on the subject. Which is sad. Really sad. Keep the article, let people who want to read about her, read about her in peace. Karl.i.biased ( talk) 02:53, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
    If you look at the D !votes they are actually from both sides of the political divide, as are the Ks. I think there is more of a matter of her being a borderline minor as well as the initial article appearing to be 1Eish (since rectified). Icewhiz ( talk) 05:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Delete the notability is weak especially in the english speaking community and to me it goes with wp:Fart and wp:Run-of-the-mill-- مصعب ( talk) 13:36, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Another possibility (which I'm just mentioning, not !voting for) is to merge with the Bassem_al-Tamimi article. OtterAM ( talk) 16:18, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
i think merging is a good alternative--- مصعب ( talk) 20:19, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • WP:HEYMANN although I wasn't the only contributor, I have expanded this article to the point that anyone voting delete is ignoring five years of coverage and the lasting impact of this latest incident. I fear systematic bias may be a partial cause. مصعب I am at a loss; have you not seen the recent English-speaking sources (not that there is a requirement) written by the NYT, the Post, the Guardian, Time magazine, etc? Similar sources also exist for the 2015 incident and even 2012 when Ahed first gained attention. TheGracefulSlick ( talk) 19:46, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
I think the information that is included here is very notable and definitely needs to be kept because of it's extensive coverage in the news. I had tried editing the Bassem_al-Tamimi article to included information relevant to this article too, but was prevented from making changes. It might be best to have a single article on the whole al-Tamimi family, but that might not be a realistic option either. OtterAM ( talk) 20:50, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Whether or not you approve of her actions, she has repeatedly been the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable sources since 2012. She is not known for one event, but for repeatedly confronting Israeli soldiers since the age of 11. Whether other young people have an article is irrelevant. She is not a private person, as her actions are deliberate public protests. Fences& Windows 20:48, 1 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Keep – Exactly as Fences&Windows wrote. Ahed's actions make her a symbol for youth activism. Totorotroll ( talk) 12:24, 2 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Keep has gained significant notability internationally. Whether this is in the English-speaking community or not is irrelevant, this argument is an example of systemic bias, see WP:BIAS. PatGallacher ( talk) 22:24, 2 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Keep WP:SIGCOV is copious. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 23:01, 2 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Has received significant coverage in reliable sources. Not BIO1E as coverage precedes the December 2017 event. Hrodvarsson ( talk) 00:31, 3 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - She was awarded the "Hanzala Award for Courage" by Mahmoud Abbas in 2012, so how can she be notable just for the 2017 event? The article needs reorganization badly as well. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 15:26, 3 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - I also see a strong case for WP:PERSISTENCE, however, at the moment I think it is too premature to be deleted, her court case will be fairly high profiled and she will remain in the news for a while. I also see merit in the argument for merging her article with articles on the other members of the Tamimi family. Jp16103 20:32, 3 January 2018 (UTC) reply
  • 'Strong keep "subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable sources since 2012" User:Fences and windows, " WP:SIGCOV is copious" User:E.M.Gregory, "significant notability internationally" User:PatGallacher, "significant coverage in reliable sources" User:Hrodvarsson. Also concern for systematic bias if deleted. Oceanflynn ( talk) 20:45, 3 January 2018 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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