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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
L'Aquatique has recently blocked Alastair, and while the block is reasonable, it is very awkward that she blocked him, as there is a lot of history between the two.
Here is the chain of events that led to the block:
While this was happening, Alastair did another unrelated revert: this was a revert of this, as demonstrated by diffing from change to revert - there are no changes in the Sikhism section.
Abtract has been reverting Alastair on articles with no other involvement or engagement on the talk page. [11] [12] [13] The evidence submitted by and about Abtract was disregarded in the case remedies.
Ryulong has extended the block due to the way that Alastair was managing his user talk page. Again this is justifiable, as the talk page management was not good. A big edit war there.
I think there are three amendments that would help this case work better:
@L'Aquatique |
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@L'Aquatique, the mediation last time did not end well. Those scabs were healing, but now there is blood everywhere again. It is suffice to say that any warning or block by you will not be headed; I wish it was not so, but that is life. You may be right that another admin would have been rejected in the same way; it depends on whether they were guided by the fact that Alastair is a massive content creator, and should be treated respectfully even when he has broken the rules. I am not suggesting that you dont treat him well, but you are not uninvolved, at least from his perspective. I hope people can see past the arbcom situation, and see that his heart is 100% in the right spot. |
@Miguel.mateo |
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@Miguel.mateo, please review the diffs I provided above. Alastair is under editing restrictions that prohibit him from making two reverts on the same page for a week. Take note of the unrelated revert I mention under the bullet points. There can be no doubt that he broke the technicalities of the editing restriction, but the circumstances of the reverts placed Alastair in another situation where he was being overruled by the number of opponents. He needs to learn that he can not go it alone, and that he must take these problems to a noticeboard for admin consideration/intervention. The first block was fine, and escalating blocks will hopefully address this problem. John Vandenberg ( chat) 08:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
@Ncmvocalist |
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@Ncmvocalist, L'Aquatique is involved due to an attempt to mediate on Gender of God, when it quickly escalated from there to L'Aquatique taking Alastair to arbcom, due to the mediation going wrong in lots of ways, and much of that was beyond the control of the mediation. It was probably heading to arbcom anyway. We can predict that unnecessary drama happens when involved admins continually address the problems arising with a valued user. It looks like a vendetta even when it isnt. It should not be too much to ask that involved admins to take a matter to Arbitration enforcement rather than tackle it themselves. John Vandenberg ( chat) 08:52, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
@L'Aquatique |
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@L'Aquatique, I didnt mean "tackling" in a bad sense ("addressing" would have been a better choice of words), and I think it is fair to call him a good faith contributor. I've revised the sentence; sorry that it came across wrong. John Vandenberg ( chat) 11:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
@Kirill |
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@Kirill, Alastair has survived two months since the case closed without a block, and the original problem this time was a few reverts, and it was accompanied with discussion on the talk page. And now you see no alternative but to ban him for a statement he made two months ago, two days after the arbitration case closed? Even if he still holds that opinion, and he holds that position beyond the context of the discussion it was framed by, surely you can see room in his comment for a better outcome? John Vandenberg ( chat) 21:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
@Ncmvocalist irt Abtract |
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@Ncmvocalist irt Abtract: My point is not that Alastair is a saint, nor was I concerned about Abtract as I wasnt aware of the outcomes of the recent case. Wikis are not perfect, and passionate editors often end up in scuffles - Religious topics are a hotbed. I am trying to establish that Abtract was very involved and it was an oversight to exclude him from the remedies of the last case, and it is one that Abtract appears to have taken advantage of.
Based on my analysis, there are not enough pages with interaction to establish that Abtract is wikistalking, and the intro rewrites have been good, however the number of similar pages suggests he is occasionally dipping into AH's contrib list, and removing an entire paragraph without discussion or explanation, as happened on Manliness and Virginity, is a concern. I would like to see more effective remedies looking forward: a level playing field and an uninvolved referee. I think the amendments I am seeking should help, but would welcome other ones. As the Gender of God page has caused this to flare up two times, it would be reasonable to page ban them all from it, however Alastair has indicated to me that he is happy to move away from that page voluntarily if I jump in and keep an eye on it, so maybe that will be suffice to prevent major drama again on that page. John Vandenberg ( chat) 07:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC) |
@Ncmvocalist irt suggested Abtract remedies |
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@Ncmvocalist irt suggested Abtract remedies: I agree with "must not revert AH"; that will help, but to be effective, they all must not revert each other. They are all good faith editors with various issues when working together - there should be no reason that they need to revert each other, as it will always end badly. However limiting the Abtract 1RR to only "religion" articles misses the point. Alastair is a scholar, and often comes in and helps on a really wide array of articles, especially where linguistics and languages play a part (which is everything except Pokemon?), and Abtract has followed him to pages which are not religious in nature. Abtract's stated opinion of AH during the last case, and even here again, is that he feels that this constant monitoring of AH is his duty, from which we can deduce he will continue to follow AH to the ends of the wiki. As this is the second instance that he has pushed buttons of another editor, 1RR should be enforced across the wiki to limit the opportunity of this happening to a third editor. John Vandenberg ( chat) 04:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC) |
@Abtract |
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@Abtract: you added "[citation needed]" at the top of a section, which is not what that the {{ fact}} template is for. Richard Arthur Norton restored your misuse of the template when he reverted me, and now AH removed only your erroneous use of the template. You have now removed four paragraphs from this article that were missing inline citations, which of course has spurred us into action to find appropriate sources, etc. This poking is annoying, especially considering you are doing the removals without disputing the accuracy of the text in question. We are very willing to discuss and critise these paragraphs; AH has already critically assessed parts of the text that you removed, as have I, and sources are appearing on the talk. You could have obtained the same result by asking nicely. John Vandenberg ( chat) 01:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
I agree with many of John's points- I particularly like the idea of not allowing the major parties to revert each other although in practice that may be difficult to regulate. In addition, although it is somewhat unorthodox, we must put some method in place to prevent Alastair from entirely having his way with his userpage: during this dispute he erased many of my statements and then selectively quoted sections out of context in a method that, frankly, stretched my
AGFifier. If for no reason other than transparency's sake, he should not be allowed to do that. Removing comments is one thing, removing them but replying to them makes it incredibly difficult for someone uninvolved to understand what is happening in a neutral way.
I do not agree with the statement that "uninvolved admins" should not be allowed to place blocks. For one thing, who decides who is involved or not? I've had no contact with Alastair since the end of the arbcom case, I forgot to remove Gender of God from my watchlist and I happen to notice a revert on it- not by Alastair but by Ilkali. I looked into it, noticed that there was an edit war, gave both parties the same warning. Ilkali apparently listened to me, Alastair did not. His claim that I have it out for him is patently, and obviously false and I expect anyone looking at this situation to realize that I'm being honest here: I don't give a damn what he does, as long as it's within policy. Thems the rules of the game.
It's easy to say that an "involved admin" shouldn't have made the call, but is anyone here actually disputing that it was the right call to make? From his comments and reactions to other admins that have dropped by it's clear he would have reacted this way to any admin who blocked him. Since it was the right call, it doesn't feel relevant to me who made it.
L'Aquatique[
talk 04:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
[outdent]Response to Kirill: while I do believe that his behavior has been inappropriate and his conduct towards me obnoxious- I don't know that we're to the point of a yearlong ban yet. If we had newer evidence of his intention to wholly disregard his arbcom sanctions, I would feel more comfortable about it. Just as we don't block vandals at AIV who haven't edited recently, we shouldn't ban someone based on three month old diffs. He should be coming back from his block what, tomorrow? Let's see what his response to all this madness is. L'Aquatique[ talk 05:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Ncmvocalist ( talk) 07:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Both myself and LessHeard vanU looked through this and per
User_talk:LessHeard_vanU#Abtract, we couldn't find similar issues between Abtract's conduct here and that found in the Abtract-Collectonian case. Rather, it seems a case of reverting with minimal communication. Cheers,
Ncmvocalist (
talk) 18:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
After further review and discussion with a couple of others, I've struck my above post (and apologies for the delay). This has taken a lot of time already, and I note the further edits that were made since my last comment below - John Vandenberg has presented enough to demonstrate cause for concern. I also support the second proposal re: Abtract, and prefer it being enacted by ArbCom rather than by the community. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 10:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC) slightly modified @ 06:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Old Comments |
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This is indeed concerning - but it does not help Alastair Haines case in a great way either. A bold edit was made by an anon and improved by AH, and Ab reverted. The next course should've been discuss this edit rather than reverting over the bold edit. The fact that instead of discussing this, AH chose to see his restriction as an inalienable right to revert, is problematic. This is especially given the principle on editorial process, and the finding of him edit-warring, and what the remedy was intended to target. This seems to have occurred before Ab popped up in the third article (which although was later, isn't looking good either). Ncmvocalist ( talk) 03:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
My view so far.
Ncmvocalist (
talk)
I can appreciate the point raised and agree; I've therefore struck the on religious articles bit from the remedies I suggest that are imposed on Abtract. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 05:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC) (See also below)
The statements by Anish and Redtigerxyz have not been helpful due to a failure to look into these incidents carefully enough (or for failing to understand the wider conduct concerns here). Personally, I'm under the impression that this would be resolved if Kirill's motion was enacted (but I'm waiting to see if Jayvdb/Casliber/someone can get through to him). But that aside, I wasn't impressed by your own revert behaviour (and lack of accompanying discussion) either: [16] [17] [18] [19] - this was despite the revert being disputed for the third time (regardless of how many days apart) [20]. If you made an undertaking to discuss your content reversions more appropriately (in fact, discuss as opposed to revert repeatedly), and confirm that you will strictly stick to it, then the sanction suggestion may be unnecessary. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 15:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC) |
On another note, both yourself and Casliber have requested for some consideration, but before that, both of you may need to assist him so that these concerns are resolved. This is the second time there are a problems, but more troubling than that (which is perhaps the cause of my reluctance), Alastair's statement(s), particularly the one below, seems to demonstrate a lack of understanding or even appreciation of the fact that many users have found problems with his conduct. There's a much greater need to make him understand that he has an obligation to make time: he needs to ensure that any edit he makes are in full compliance with his restrictions. Of course, I expect that he may find it inconvenient to spend time to ensure complicance, but his current editing style is a problem - what is needed is a substantial change so that this will not be a problem in the long-term. Absent of (1) an understanding of what those problems are, and (2) a willingness and ability to deal with them, the change will not happen and this situation is likely to deteriorate; he may find himself preveted from editing, whether voluntarily or non-voluntarily. He'll probably be given rope this time, but it's all in his hands as to how he will use it to his benefit or detriment. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 05:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I've been discussing this with the person who initiated this request, and I don't think we'd have gotten beyond a greeting if either of us predecided any relevant issue. I hold a wider view; my above comment notes under what circumstances a ban may not be necessary. However, to call a ban unjustified in this case is at a stretch and confirms my doubts regarding your understanding of the issues and concerns here. Rather, what's being considered (or should be the only things left to consider) is the the requests for clemency (which is reasonable), and any relevant factors/evidence. I am aware of the large amount of time and effort others are putting into this to try to get those factors, but it's all in AH's hands now. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I do question the first block given to Alistair. Not only the admin who did the block is inappropriate, the block itself is not justified. Please check the evidence given in User_talk:Alastair_Haines#Me_too. Miguel.mateo ( talk) 07:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
@John: I am not disagreeing with you, but the evidence provided by the admin who blocked Alastair is here: User_talk:Alastair_Haines#Gender_of_God, the second evidence is a revert Alastair did on his own edit. I think the admin in question had definitely quick fingers to act. Then check again to her answers in User_talk:Alastair_Haines#Me_too, she still believes that the second evidence provided is "within policy". Anyway, you have shown extreme professionalism so far in this case, I know it is in good hands. I will leave you guys alone now, I am sure you all need time to analyze. Miguel.mateo ( talk) 08:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Dear admins, apologies for interrupting once more, but you can see some evidence of Alastair being attacked blindly (even when he can not defend himself) by one of those people that want nothing but to get him off Wikipedia, here: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#Ry.C5.ABl.C3.B3ng_and_Haines. Thanks, Miguel.mateo ( talk) 13:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
@Ilkali: unfortunaly, we are all entitled to give our opinion, and in this case we, "the cheerleaders", are not the only one that felt that it was not handled properly. The fact that you and your buddies are constantly assuming bad faith against Alastair will never fix the issue. Why do you have to think that a random comment from an IP, in this talk page, has to come from Alastair? BTW, I suggest you to read sarcasm. Miguel.mateo ( talk) 15:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
@Casliber: Please do me a favour and review again, L'Aquatique blocked Alastair and later she asked another admin to review that block. Look at the evidence she placed in Alastair's talk page: the second Alastair's revert is a revert he did to himself. When I asked why she counted that as a revert, her answer was "that is the policy". I honestly believe that she acted too quickly against Alastair, but that is for you guys to judge. Miguel.mateo ( talk) 04:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
This case is barely moving, but I want to bring the committee back to the original re-opening of the case. Quoting John "L'Aquatique has recently blocked Alastair, and while the block is reasonable, it is very awkward that she blocked him, as there is a lot of history between the two." I do not want to see any restriction to L'Aquatique, but something should be done (maybe self-done) to avoid admin-type interaction between her and Alastair in the future. I am confident that if she had reported the incident instead of taking actions directly, we wouldn't be here. I have nothing personal with her, so I think a statement from her that she will not apply any admin restrictions in the future but she will report any incidents to an uninvolved administrator for review will suffice I think. Miguel.mateo ( talk) 04:33, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify my position. I have edited Gender of God many times over the last year or so - indeed it is there that I had the misfortune to meet Haines for the first time. Naturally, the article is on my watch list; when Haines (or anyone else) makes unhelpful edits, I revert them. I would not support any relaxation of the restrictions on Haines who likes to use his undoubted intellect and knowledge to control the content of article he feels he owns. Nor would I support any restrictions on other editors to allow Haines more freedom to act - he is a bully who needs less, not more, freedom imho. Abtract ( talk) 10:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Response to Newyorkbrad
My views on Haines are, I hope, well known and well documented: he is a bully of the worst kind - he uses his superior intellect, knowledge and charisma to overwhelm lesser mortals. I first had the misfortune to meet him on Gender of God and then again on Singular they, both articles have been on my watch list for some time. I was highly relieved when he was restricted but frankly not too surprised when he completely rejected the restrictions as being beneath him and certainly not to be considered when he edits. His aggressive stance towards any admin who crosses him is all part of his arogant I-walk-on-water style; be warned this guy will not change his spots unless forced so to do, or you banish him. So far as my actions are concerned I want to be entirely open here: in an unrelated case (with C........n) I was guilty of some petty revenge-seeking minor edits mainly designed to annoy Cn. I admit it, I am human - I felt wronged, I was hurt, I hit back. I have learned my lesson and would draw your attention to this edit (and the two by Cn that preceded it) to demonstrate that I did not take a golden opportunity (handed to me on a plate) to pursue the vendetta any further. My interactions with Haines have been quite different: mainly they have been on articles where we share an interest (I don't edit much nowadays because I have other fish to fry which explains my infrequent visits to certain articles), I may well have edited on a pop-in basis on new article because I do watch Haines' edits occasionally (I stress occasionally), but I only edit, or revert, if I think the edit or rv is fully justified (someone above said my changes to intros were "good", I think I quote correctly). I watch his edits because he is a convicted bully and it is all our duty to stand up to bullies - if I had time I would watch more of his edits. I am guessing that quite a number of the editors, admins on this page also watch his edits (indeed one or two may well watch mine), so be it. I have been at the brunt end of his bullyboy tactics and I know what it is like; protecting others where I can occasionally (but only if I disagree with his edits, be clear) is a worthwhile cause - much better than being bitchy with Cn. My attitude to Haines is what any decent editor would support if they knew all the facts - as you guys surely must. Abtract ( talk) 16:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Respose to Ncmvocalist |
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Respose to Ncmvocalist I am disappointed that you consider it necessary to restrict me (and others) for standing up to a convicted bully. If, each time someone stands up to Haines they are restricted, this simply gives him more freedom when surely he should have less, for the good of wp. If no-one stands up to him, he will just continue on his merry way - is there no system for checking what he is doing? The last thing I want is to be bothered policing Haines but no one else seems to be doing so. I am also keen to know on what grounds restrictions might be placed on me - I can find nowhere that says that watching edits is wrong, indeed: Many users track other users edits, although usually for collegial or administrative purposes. Proper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Wikipedia policy or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam. The contribution logs can be used in the dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented in requests for comment, mediation, WP:ANI, and arbitration cases. The important component of wiki-hounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions. That seems to support my, meticulously polite, actions in checking that Haines is not continuing his bullyboy ways (a violation of policy if ever I saw one). Do what you will but I urge you to think very carefully about the message you give to him and other bullies "It's OK, we will protect you by restricting how ordinary editors interact with you so that you can act pretty much as you want". Abtract ( talk) 09:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC) |
To anyone who thinks Haines may be reconciled to acting within the restrictions |
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To anyone who thinks Haines may be reconciled to acting within the restrictions Please read this diatribe. Abtract ( talk) 00:10, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
And as though to prove the point |
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And as though to prove the point this revert of a tag just replaced by Richard Arthur Norton followed less than two days after this one on the same article. He is currently limited to one revert per week per article but, as he keeps on telling us, he has no intention of depriving wp in that way. Abtract ( talk) 00:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC) |
Thoughts about resticting me
I see that a rather draconian restriction on me has been proposed. Even the proposal must give considerable heart to Haines ... were it to be enacted, you will never be able to control him or his cheer-leaders again. Please think carefully about the message this would send him and the freedom it would grant him. I have no particular desire to keep an eye on Haines but, unless someone does, he will continue his bullying rampage and get his way on all articles he chooses to own. Abtract ( talk) 07:19, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm actually an involved "party" in this. I reviewed the reverts Alastair Haines made after L'Aquatique requested someone to review her block of Haines. I looked into the block and made my comment on his talk page, and warned that if he continued to purposefully remove the comments left by L'Aquatique to skew the view of the discussion in his favor, I would prevent him from editing his user talk page. When I returned to Wikipedia yesterday, I found that he persisted in his activities and did the same to my message, I decided that the course of action was to (instead of protecting the page) block his account for 48 hours from that point such that the editing of the talk page was disabled. This added 12 hours to his block in total. If others feel it is necessary, I can restore the original block length and keep the user talk page editing disabled.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙) 11:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Problems like this will continue as long as Alastair wilfully and explicitly disregards the sanctions placed on him ( "I do not feel in any way party to whatever conclusions [Arbcom] may have come to"). L'Aquatique's actions in this case were fair and generous. Alastair's violation of his 1RR was objectively verifiable, leaving no room for bias, and she did not even block him at his first offense; he was given a warning and contemptuously rejected it. The only reason we would restrict L'Aquatique from enforcing Arbcom's rulings is to protect Alastair's pride, which is at best unnecessary pandering and at worst encourages an attitude that has already proven itself disruptive. Ilkali ( talk) 13:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I continue to insist that the best first step is to talk to Alastair. It is far too early to consider a ban. In my opinion, all of the problems with this editor stem from his pride and inability to view his own actions critically (this is not helped by the presence of cheerleaders like SkyWriter/Teclontz, Buster7 and Miguel.mateo). By far the best approach is to either shake this attitude or persuade him to change his editing pattern so it cannot cause conflicts. Ilkali ( talk) 15:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
The following was recently added on Alastair's talk page:
What exactly are you enlisting these people to do, Alastair? Ilkali ( talk) 12:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
The fact that Administrator L'Aquatique is blind to the negative personal involvement and the animosity that she has toward Alastair is most upsetting. She went after him as her very first act as an Administrator. It was almost as tho she had him in her sights from the very beginning. She should be banned should recuse herself from any contact whatsoever having to do with Editor Alastair Haines. Her animus toward him certainly seems irreconcilable. --
Buster7 (
talk) 14:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Everything I had to say about this case was said in the original case. - LisaLiel ( talk) 15:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I have been too busy to examine the article material in depth, and I am nonpartial as I am a friend of Alastair (so if anyone feels this means this should be disregarded so be it). I note that (a) if I were blocked by an editor I had previously had a confrontation with after (b) two editors I had previously had run ins with turned up to revert changes of mine in a tense situation, I would be pretty enraged. Now whether this is justified or not is another matter, but what I do see here is a heated situation. Many actions are done and later regretted in the heat of the moment, so I would take this into account with respect to events and statements after this point. I appreciate L'Aquatique did ask another admin's view before blocking, which was a wise move and I respect that, but I do think in these cases that even the semblance of a COI can be bad - i.e. another admin should have done the blocking. End result, what am I asking for? A plea for clemency for Alastair, who is a valued contributor and has much to give. Cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 13:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
So long as ArbCom members appear to endorse unsustainable criticisms of my editing, that amount to personal attacks, there will be problems.
Since my editing is, and always has been impeccable, it is easy for me to overlook any restrictions placed on me. They only ask me to do what I've always done anyway. There is no evidence, anywhere, that suggests I have done otherwise than act in a way that any reasonable member of the community can find consistent with improving and maintaining Wikipedia, either in incidents refered to above, associated with the original ArbCom case, or in any other editing at Wiki.
I have absolutely no problem with the restrictions ArbCom proposed, except two—one practical, the other more abstract. Regarding practicality, it is simply unreasonable to keep a diary of all reverts I make, and consult it. I simply work too quickly for that. I revert multiple times and quickly while copy-editing and receive no complaints. Additionally, when people repeatedly vandalise a page, it is impractical to keep a diary of what they did and when. Again, I never receive complaints about this.
That brings us to the abstract issue. L'Aquatique, Ilkali and Abtract are not credible witnesses, all have demonstrated personal animosity and gaming the system. These things are obvious even to casual observers. All make a point of seeking to paint a picture of my editing as though it had been broadly agreed to contain questionable elements. This is simply not the case. No credible witness against my editing has ever been brought forward.
I will not deal with it here, but the ArbCom case bearing my name, and its conclusions, are not credible evidence of anything much, for a range of reasons. This is a serious problem, that I would like to help ArbCom members resolve in another forum. Current handling of the case is creating embarassment for people (namely the arbitrators) that I would like to spare from that. I love volunteer workers, and can imagine few jobs more challenging and uncomfortable than addressing the sorts of disputes that are accepted as ArbCom cases.
However, while a handful of people's untennable misrepresentation of my editing (which are simply personal attacks) remains uncorrected, a fundamental principle of Wiki editorial cameraderie is being blatantly "bucked" in front of the noses of responsible parties. Unsurprisingly, the ir-responsible parties are making, and will continue to make, sport of this oversight. It's only my problem in the sense that I have to experience it, in reality it is the problem of my fellow Wikipedians to protect me from it. Is it easier for it to be endured, or for it to be corrected? I've been enduring, please correct it. Alastair Haines ( talk) 04:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
PS I just remembered, I did make one edit that was not aimed at improving or maintaining Wikipedia. [23] My apologies to everyone for my playfulness on that occasion. Alastair Haines ( talk) 04:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
PPS I've just been glancing over this page. ArbCom members have way too much work. I am embarassed that I only notice this now. I think the decision in my case was unhelpful, but with the deepest sincerity, now I don't care. ArbCom members have volunteered to do a task that is almost impossible, as far as I can see. Make whatever decisions seem best to you in the limited time available to you. I am not going to hold you accountable to live up to what are, in my revised opinion, unreasonable expectations in the circumstances. You have made it difficult to support you, but support you I will. I have plenty of resources of wise and good friends at Wiki who can ensure peace and that you are not troubled again. My apologies that you have once more been troubled by this case. Very inconsiderate. Make sure you get enough sleep, stay faithful to real life friends and take breaks when you need them. I doubt you'll be hearing from me again, but I'll be thinking of you. Cheerio. Alastair Haines ( talk) 09:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Although, I have never been involved in this dispute nor with the other editors, I have been involved with Alastair many times and hence in the interest of wikipedia, I feel compelled to make a statement. Any proposal to ban Alastair or put any restrictions on his edits, spell a big disaster for Wikipedia. Most editors on wikipedia are either mass editors or intellectuals, Alastair is those from a rare breed who is both. His edits have a compelling effect on those editing with him. It raises the quality of edits and discussions on the pages edited by him. I have found him a team player and hence fail to understand why certain editors are after him. I am sure that L'Aquatique is a good wikipedian and a good person to work with, but as stated by John Vandenberg there is no denying the fact that she has a history with Alastair. In such cases even good admins tend to lose objectivity and do get trigger-happy. In real life we do have cases like – Judges recuseing themselves in interested cases or interested directors not voting in board resolutions. So I do support Vandenberg’s view that block should be from uninvolved admins. Secondly, the case of Alastair editing his own talk page is so trivial that I am surprised that it is even discussed. We should not be worried as how a discussion thread is going on a talk page. In most cases I see persons replying to the other talk page rather than in his own page under the question. In such cases no one worries about the “transparency” on the talk pages. Everyone should have the authority to manage his own talk page and remove any edits or warnings that he deems to be defamatory or bogus. -- Anish ( talk) 06:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I am disappointed with User Kirill and FloNights decision to support the motion to ban Alastair. While they may have some valid reasons, I feel following things need to be considered:
-- Anish ( talk) 10:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment to Ncmvocalist Its not that I have not understood the issue being discussed here. I am looking at much much wider issue here that is likely to result on account of unjustified ban on Alastair. The question is, are you willing to take a wider view of the issue or have already pre-decided on this issue?-- Anish ( talk) 10:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I am not directly associated with the case, however I have been involved with Alastair as he is currently copy-editing Vithoba. I am a major contributor to the article and "maintain" it. Alastair has considerable contributions to religion-based articles like FA Anekantavada (Alastair was the FAC nominator) and Vithoba. So i am against the idea of Alastair being "topic banned from (all) religion articles for a period of time that is definitely greater than one month" and "banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year". I also support the view that only uninvolved admins should enforce a block. Also, about the removal on his own talk, wiki-policy allows it - Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#User_talk_pages. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:19, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I am not directly associated with the case, but Alastair copy-edited some of my articles (f.e. Codex Coislinianus, Papyrus 110, Uncial 0212), and I can say one: He is very good wiki-editor. Every article copy-edited by Alastair became better. He also created a lot of important articles. He is one of the best editors, we know, and this discussion is not a good idea. Leszek Jańczuk ( talk) 13:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1) Alastair Haines ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year.
Abtract ( talk · contribs) is directed not to interact with, or comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about, Alastair Haines ( talk · contribs), on any page in Wikipedia, or to harass Alastair Haines such as by editing (including but not limited to reverting on) pages that Alastair Haines has recently edited but Abtract has not previously edited. Should Abtract violate this restriction, he may be blocked for an appropriate period of time, up to one month, by any uninvolved administrator. Alastair Haines is urged to avoid any unnecessary interaction with Abtract.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I've also notified out of courtesy; FT2, Jimbo Wales and David Gerard
Peter Damian was given a limited unblock by Thatcher in the last 24hrs on the conditions:
He has since been blocked for attempting to improve the encyclopedia in mainspace. To my knowledge Peter's mainspace contributions weren't fundamentally at issue and he is widely regarded as a good content contributor. Have we only invited him back to participate in drama and/or dispute resolution, or whilst he's here should we allow him to contribute? I respectfully ask the committee to allow him to edit mainspace. Thanks -- Joopercoopers ( talk) 21:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Bishonen above. What's needed here is separation as far as practicable between FT2 and PD. We are left with a little problem though in that FT2 has presented considerable evidence above which Peter Damian should, in all fairness, have a right to reply to. However, there's clearly a potential flash point in that. I suggest Peter gets a week to formulate a reply and then a line is drawn firmly under the whole affair and the motion comes into effect. If there is any follow-up to be made it must be made by others after that time. Regards --
Joopercoopers (
talk) 19:58, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
My original statement is http ://www.mywikibiz .com/Directory:The_Wikipedia_Point_of_View/Peter_Damian_Evidence. In summary: Principled and good-faith criticism of another person is not the same thing as a personal attack or harassment. Everyone accepts that fair and principled criticism of another editor's action is essential to the continued survival of the Wikipedia project. But the evidence below shows that my criticism of the editor called FT2 has been principled and in good faith. I am particularly concerned about the pseudoscientific contributions FT2 has made to the project, and about the way he has abused his influence (both personal and administrative) to have anti-PS editors blocked or banned. My actions should not therefore be labelled as 'harassment'.
I accept that more than once these often voluble criticisms have exceeded the bounds of good taste and propriety. I apologise for that.
Thank you Peter Damian ( talk)
He has since been blocked for attempting to improve the encyclopedia in mainspace. - wrong: and it would be nice if you could show more respect for Tznkai. More accurately, he has since been blocked for violating condition 4 of the unblock parole. He was fully aware of this condition, and chose to break it, which is hardly a good sign William M. Connolley ( talk) 21:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
See my unblock message here for additional background.
Peter Damian created his new account Peter Damian II ( talk · contribs) and began editing before he had been notified of a formal unblocking and before his old accounts were unblocked. He was immediately blocked. When I was available to do so, I unblocked his accounts and prepared to write an unblock message contain some minimal conditions. However, after I unblocked the accounts but before I could compose my message, I was contacted by FT2, who strongly objected to the conditions I had proposed and pressed me to either leave Damian blocked until an agreement could be reached (notwithstanding the agreement I thought had already been reached) or to unblock but impose a series of topic restrictions to which I was opposed. If Damian had not jumped the gun, this could probably have been handled by email with merely an additional 24-48 hour delay in the unblocking. However, as Damian had jumped the gun, and as I had been contacted at just the wrong moment, I found myself forced into a corner. I could not leave things as they were, and I could not do what I originally planned to do. Therefore I restricted Damian to his user space and RFAR pending further word from Arbcom.
I note also that FT2 wants to prepare an explanation of all the events surrounding Damian's original blocking, the oversight, Damian's claims against FT2, and so forth. It is his right to do so, and I understand why he still feels aggrieved, but I have advised him to let the matter go, and I advised Damian not to contribute to the discussion, as FT2 seems to get under his skin in a way that other editors and admins don't.
I have never had a problem with Damian's content contributions. FT2 feels that after Damian's first block and reincarnation as "Peter Damian" this spring, that Damian began targeting topics formerly edited by FT2 that Damian had never before shown an interest in. FT2 feels this is a case of Wikihounding. FT2 also believes Damian is taking advice from banned user HeadleyDown ( talk · contribs) and acting as his proxy. I understand why FT2 feels he was being targeted by Damian, and I agree there is an appearance of targeting at least in some edits, but Damian is a smart guy and was willing to take responsibility for the edits that were being suggested, so I think the charge of proxying for a banned user is not as clear-cut as FT2 thinks it is. FT2 asked me to restrict Damian from editing a broad list of topics for the reasons of Wikihounding and proxy editing; this is one of the conditions that I objected to.
It was my judgement that Damian should be unblocked with the understanding that he was being given enough rope to hang himself with. Damian has done a number of things since the original block in December 2007 that he needs to not do again in order to regain/retain his editing privileges. Either he understands this and will be able to edit, or he does not, in which case someone will eventually ban him again. I felt I was unable to act on my judgement, so I restricted Damian to his user space and RFAR and punted the matter to Arbcom. Perhaps I simply chickened out. Thatcher 21:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
*sigh* so much wikidramah. I ask the Arbcom to unblock him for the sake of the project so he can edit mainspace, on the condition that he will re-banned ipso facto if he brings up the oversighted edits again. Also, a ban from interacting with TF2 or commenting about him could be appropiate. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
P.D.: As rootology said, FT2 should asked not to interact with him either, as the dynamics between the two of them will cause cause the issue to explode again -- Enric Naval ( talk) 23:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
what enric said. Really guys - an arb should propose, and the committee should pass a quick motion lifting the ban, and separating FT and PD and the wiki wins. Or just copy this;
1) Peter Damian ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is unbanned.
2) Peter Damian ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and FT2 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are instructed to make an effort to avoid all contact with each other.
Privatemusings ( talk) 23:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
A ban does not suggest that an editor is unable to make useful edits; it simply means that the disruption outweighs the positives to an unacceptable extent. Yesterday I was reviewing the ArbCom results and discovered to my surprise that Peter Damian had attempted to vote on a candidacy. He linked to his old user account, which stated that time time that he was banned by Jimbo Wales. So I struck through his attempted vote per WP:BAN.
I was and am concerned about the integrity of our election process; a different issue regarding the elections had reached the administrators' noticeboard the day before. It turned out that Peter had jumped the gun and exceeded the very limited terms that Thatcher had negotiated, although during the interim a fair bit of confusion arose between several longstanding contributors. A few of the exchanges were heated and I regret my part in that.
Now Peter Damian has exceeded Thatcher's terms again, and Peter's unblock request fails to acknowledge the legitimacy of the blocking rationale. If Peter wishes to persuade consensus that his presence is a net gain this is not the way to do it; a conservative and modest approach in strict accordance with the unblock terms would inspire more confidence. Unfortunately his recent antics probably also have the effect of reducing the pool of people who would give serious attention to his claims regarding FT2.
That said, I see no actual need for the Committee to intervene. FT2 has invited Peter to present his criticisms and evidence onsite; Peter can do that via a transclusion template even if all of his accounts are blocked, as long as one of his user talk pages remains unprotected. So an adequate solution is merely a technical matter.
If Peter has said he understands what went wrong now, and just wants to get back to editing articles and avoiding FT2, and FT2 wants to avoid Peter, why not just ask them to both just avoid/recuse from each other on anything (if someone has to Arb or Admin on Peter, it's not like we have any great shortage of people) so that everyone can get back to what they do best and end any silly drama? Probably just a quick up and down motion from the AC confirming that Peter is unblocked and asked to avoid FT2, and FT2 is asked to avoid Peter, and then a year of drama goes away and we get back a good content writer and free up FT2 to do his AC stuff on other issues. There is proof that such things work, asking parties to just avoid each other. FT2 actually suggested himself the very same solution in regards to myself and the other fellow in August...
It's going to be hard for him if he gets addressed with critical or skeptical comments whilst trying to reacquaint himself with editing. That tends to be hard for anybody. I think your point's made, that you have concerns whether he should be considering proposing remedies, but I'd ask that the concern is dropped. It's been stated a few times; doubtless noted too. He'll have a fair chance, same as anyone else unblocked. If you'd be able to avoid interacting with him, it would possibly make it easier on him to avoid interacting back with you as well. - FT2
...and it's worked out pretty darn well, I think. If everyone is willing to suck it up for the good of everyone else, then a year from now this could be a historical footnote and nothing more. rootology ( C)( T) 22:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
1) For the sake of everyone, FT2 and Peter Damian are banned from any interaction or commentary about each other, broadly construed, and are required to recuse from each other on any issues or Wikipedia functions, up to and including the Arbitration process. Additionally, both users are barred from editing, commenting, or administrating on any topics or disputes related to Neuro-linguistic programming, broadly construed, up to and including the Arbitration process.
chronology of events (historical) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I stumbled across this situation after the initial stage of back and forth block and unblock had proceeded, and the unblock conditions had been established. Peter Damian had voted before those unblock conditions were made clear, with the confusion described by Thatcher. I familiarized myself as best I could with the timeline of events with the Peter Damian II account, and then in my judgment as an unofficial election clerk, administrator, and plain old Wikipedian, I felt that Peter Damian did not have suffrage (yet) for this election, so I indented to votes and left a message on Damian's page to that extent, and watchlisted the page in case Damian responded. In the meantime a number of other editors had what I will politely call a back and forth on the Peter Damian II talk page. I left this message which I now regret targeting solely at Peter Damian. After that, I noticed a conversation betwween Peter Damian and MBisanz concerning an autoblock, apparently Peter Damian had attempted to edit the Medieval philosophy article. I asked Peter Damian to clarify if his unblock terms had changed, did so again/warned him when he ignored me and continued to edit. Peter Damian gave what I felt was a rather unhelpful response, had continued to edit past my warning, so I then blocked him for violation of his unblock terms. Update:16:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC) Peter Damian edited the Dark Ages talk page, was warned and then blocked by William M. Connolley. I've asked WMC to unblock Peter Damian, and have also suggested to Peter Damian a way to move forward on that particular issue. As it stands currently, I believe that there is an explicit and easy to follow editing restriction on Peter Damian, and we'll move so much faster and cleaner on this if he would follow that restriction until it is overturned or modified. I personally have no objection to the terms being modified in general, but I'm not exactly eager to modify terms while they're being violated willfully, as it appears is happening now. I don't know a thing about Peter Damian's article contribution - I don't particularly care to look, I assume he is useful there and that my fellow Wikipedians are correct when they suggest it is not at issue. I just think he should stop violating his terms so we can get to the business of fixing them.-- Tznkai ( talk) 16:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC) |
Get a move on. Wikipedian, an administrator, and an Arbitration Committee clerk, I feel a duty to protect our processes from their failures, so let me be blunt. This situation must be resolved before the new Committee terms take effect. The impact of being asked to resolve a dispute involving a fellow Arbiter as the first order of business risks unraveling the working relationships within the Committee before they begin to form. Aside from being blatantly unfair and cruel, this situation will exaggerate the consequences any newbie mistakes by new Arbiters and the bad blood may well stain the Committee's reputation with the community for the entirety of the new Arbiters' terms: three years of already difficult work undercut by this Committee's failure to act. This request must be resolved - that need is paramount, perhaps even at the price of doing it "right" - because doing nothing is far more wrong. You have a responsibility: fulfill it.
My position in summary:
Evidence being summed up in a redacted form here.
Unfortunately Damian's behavior is not simple, and a large number of people have been misled by his repeated claims. A number of smoke screens exist which need daylight to disinfect. The evidence in summary shows:
Peter Damian's unblocks have almost all been obtained via untruthful statements, or reneged promises.
Specifically, every unblock given on good faith or on promise of improvement or cessation, was followed by a return to this behavior. Most block appeals were marked by either at least one dishonest statement to present the request for unblock in a more favorable light, or by reneging or other disruptive conduct afterwards.
Examples from 5 different unblocks or unblock requests, and 3 examples of serious other conduct (threats, etc) are evidenced.
Evidence is about 80% done, needing some cites and tidying/brevifying to be ready. The draft can be found at the above link. I will note when it's done.
FT2 ( Talk | email) 17:38, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
The previous Jimbo block stated: "User says he is leaving. Good timing. Please do not unblock without approval from me and/or ArbCom"
Now Jimbi has said: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Peter_Damian_II&diff=255936935&oldid=255936051
I responded to an inquiry by Thatcher saying that I neither support nor oppose this. I should not be considered any obstacle in this situation. Apparently there is an agreement which resolves all the outstanding issues. I am hopeful for the future.
Why is the arbitration committee looking into it? Are they really parsing the original block statement "without approval from me and/or Arbcom" to mean that now that Jimbo has removed his opposition that the ArbCom approval must also come to satisfy the 'and' portion of the requirement?
Does every single issue that people have a disagreement on need to be decided by the to the Arbitration Committee?
Can't anyone blow their own nose any more? Uncle uncle uncle 00:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Just a procedural note that I have, per his request, renamed User:Peter Damian II to User:Peter Damian as a partial solution to the password issue. As a more general point, one way or another this user should be able to edit articles. It seems ludicrous to me to have unblocked this person but not to allow him to get on with editing content, something clearly to the project's benefit. WJBscribe (talk) 10:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I ask the ArbCom or Thatcher to allow Peter to edit in mainspace. FT2 seems to be exercising a veto, which isn't appropriate. I've several times been in a situation where users who tried to out me were unblocked without my being consulted, and I know how hurtful it is — e.g. Jimbo unblocked Brandt and FloNight unblocked Poetlister, both without even telling me — so I agree that FT2 should have input. But that can't amount to a veto. SlimVirgin talk| edits 00:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
FT2, you invited people to ask about any conduct of yours that appeared problematic.
You wrote on July 4, 2008 that you didn't know your early edits to Zoophilia had been oversighted. [25] These were the edits Peter Damian drew attention to during the 2007 ArbCom elections, because he felt they showed a POV that concerned him. David G oversighted them in December 2007.
Your post implies that David took it upon himself to oversight your edits. You didn't ask him to do it, and he didn't tell you he'd done it. In fact, the first you heard of it was seven months later. Is that correct? SlimVirgin talk| edits 02:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
FT2 declines to answer my question, arguing that it's irrelevant. [26]
I disagree. The impression I get here is of a less-than-honest arbitrator who managed to get a good editor, Peter, banned because he tried to draw the community's attention to certain issues during the election; who has hounded another editor, Giano, who pointed out some of the same concerns; and who succeeded in getting an admin (me) desysopped for reversing his block of Giano — referring, as background to the desysopping, to previous cases I was involved in, some of which the same arbitrator had succeeded in distorting. And who is now trying to ensure that, if Peter is allowed back, he's restricted in what he can say and where he can edit, even though he has a PhD that's directly relevant to at least one of those areas.
If I'm doing you an injustice, FT2, I ask you most sincerely to answer the question of whether your statement of July 4, 2008 was true, namely whether that was the first time you'd heard of the oversighting, during the 2007 ArbCom election, of your early edits. [27]
If you can show that it was true, I'll happily apologize in public. If it was not true, I ask that you resign from the committee. SlimVirgin talk| edits 04:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I took a look today for the first time at FT2's edits to articles on Neurolinguistic programming. Quite a bit of NLP touches on philosophy, particularly where the nature of knowledge and perception is discussed. As someone with a background in philosophy, I agree with Peter Damian (who is a philosopher) that the material FT2 has written needs to be cleaned up. A great deal of it consists either of platitudes or nonsensical original research, and Peter's brief involvement has led to improvement.
One example: FT2 created Principles of NLP. This is a version of it that consists entirely of FT2's writing. Some of it is meaningless; for example, "Objectivity attempts to be the study of reality." (Objectivity is not the study of anything, nor does it "attempt" to be anything at all.) Or "Subjectivity ... assumes that ... there may be an absolute reality, and knowing it may be beneficial ..." (But subjectivity neither assumes nor knows anything, least of all that absolute reality may be "beneficial," whatever that might mean.) The whole article is written in this tone, with no sources.
In August 11 this year, Peter Damian nominated it and several others for deletion. [28] It was agreed that, instead of deleting them, they'd be redirected and merged into the main article on NLP, so thanks to Peter, it has gone.
What's needed now is for others with qualifications or knowledge in this area (philosophy, psychology, psychiatry) to clean up anything that's left. I would also ask the ArbCom why they're tolerating this. Brad, if you knew an editor was writing poor material about law, would you consider even for a minute placing an editing restriction on a law professor who had tried to clean it up — and, further, a restriction suggested by the person who had written the poor material in the first place? Something has gone badly wrong with this project if that's the situation we're in. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 05:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Can the committee please promptly decide whether this ban/unban is within their remit? Is it really up to FT2, a highly involved user, to speak for the committee and to rescind the unban agreement already reached, through Thatcher's efforts? [29]? It's intolerable to keep Peter Damian dangling, and unable to edit articles, while FT2 composes his statement. It's unseemly, this arrant contrast between the tender princess-and-the-pea consideration of FT2's ancient grudge shown by the committee (I assume, "the committee" in the sense of the majority of arbiters?), versus the blind eye they (again, presumably most of them?) turn to the situation of a banned, snubbed, ignored, and mobbed user—a hard-working expert contributor, yet—with a certain propensity for losing his temper—and wouldn't you have by now, dear reader? I urge the committee to approve, for the duration, the original unblocking terms, according to which PD would be able to edit freely: the terms which Thatcher was pressured to abandon at the instigation of FT2. Please apply these unblock conditions as originally planned. When FT2's statement eventually appears, the (IMO absurd, but whatever) ban from editing mainspace can always be reinstated, if FT2's statement should give a basis for it. Bishonen | talk 01:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC).
The central part of Newyorkbrad's motion below reads: "Peter Damian is directed not to interact with, or comment in any way (directly or indirectly), about FT2 on any page in Wikipedia." This is an unusually one-sided remedy. Having to some extent followed the exchanges between PD and FT2 over the past year or so, I urge that the motion be made symmetrical. Something like this: "Peter Damian and FT2 are directed not to interact with, or comment in any way (directly or indirectly), about each other on any page in Wikipedia.". I've grasped that you "do not approve of certain aspects of Peter Damian's conduct", Brad, but do you approve of all aspects of FT2's conduct? Whether or not, you are surely aware that not everybody does. It's unreasonable and unjust to leave FT2 free to "interact" with PD—say, by posting accusations and self-praise on PD's talkpage—while enjoining PD from "interacting" with FT2—say, by replying. The motion offered has the smell of compromise and exudes unease. It reads uncomfortably. Its central idea of a single individual "interacting" is incoherent, since "interact" is a word expressing reciprocity. See Oxford English Dictionary, interact: "To act reciprocally, to act on each other." Peter Damian and FT2 have been acting reciprocally, acting "on" each other. Please provide for this in the motion. Bishonen | talk 19:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC).
I'm happy to see Kirill's motion 1.1 proposing the kind of mutual ban on interaction between Peter Damian and FT2 which I proposed just above, instead of merely a ban on Peter Damian interacting with FT2. But IMO the present situation calls for a wholly mutual motion. If Peter Damian is to be blocked if he comments on FT2, then FT2 should be blocked if he comments on Peter Damian. Again, interaction is a two-way street; you can't interact all by yourself; and in this affair, there has been baiting by both users. It would be great to see the ArbCom take the moral high ground and acknowledge that, other things being equal, it is more, not less, important to restrain the more influential of the two users. As Flo points out in the "Arbitrator views and discussion" section below, FT2 and Peter Damian have been "advised" to avoid each other. [30] Please carry through this symmetrical advice in a symmetrical motion! Suggestion: Peter Damian and FT2 are directed not to comment to or on each other in any way (directly or indirectly) on any page in Wikipedia. Should either of them do so, he may be blocked for an appropriate period of time by any uninvolved administrator. Please note that this suggestion leaves out the "or make any other comment reasonably regarded as harassment or a personal attack," both because it's not appropriate to FT2, and because the ArbCom seems to be belatedly coming round to managing without "civility paroles". (See Question by Tex below: sorry I missed that, Tex.) Bishonen | talk 19:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC).
Peter has made outstanding contributions to content over the years and his absence from editing reflects badly on WIkipedia. The edits which got peter banned in the first place were no worse (in fact milder) than many a comment and exchange which goes unpunished on controversial pages daily (come to those on Ireland if you want examples). While Arbcom members may need some additional protection they also need a degree of robustness and should not need protecting like some tender and fragile orchid. I fully endorse the comments by Bishonen above. -- Snowded TALK 09:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I was one of the administrators trying to clean up this mess last December. I've watched it since, though largely stayed out of it since then. Having watched FT2's conduct in past periods when Damian was unblocked, I agree with the prior commentators that the two should both be restricted from commenting on one another. Indeed, FT2's conduct toward Damian and descriptions of Damian were in my eyes part of the problem even before Damian was first blocked, and they haven't really gotten any better. GRBerry 21:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
P.S. I doubt the email evidence from last December is still particularly relevant, however I still have copies of all that was sent to me. GRB
Could we avoid bringing in the whole wiki-drama cast? I don't think that benefits Peter Damian or anyone else.
I have no dog in this fight whatsoever, but the new motion doesn't sit right. The new motion says that Peter and FT2 cannot interact with or comment on each other on any page on the wiki. It then sets forth how Peter can be blocked if he comments on FT2. What happens to FT2 if he comments on Peter? This motion cannot be enforced unless there are consequences for FT2 as well as for Peter. Are we going to be fair about this? Tex ( talk) 15:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Motion 1.1 says: "Peter Damian and FT2 are directed not to interact with or comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about each other on any page in Wikipedia." But already there is a dispute over "territory". Peter Damian says: "It also includes him not interfering with my work on articles related tangentially to linguistics such as Neurolinguistic programming. Can I simply point out my PhD is in a linguistics related area?"
First, Neuro-linguistic programming has little to do with linguistics in the conventional sense. Second, FT2 has been editing that article since 2004 in addition to editing related topics. A simple way of determining who has the "right of way" on a topic would be who edited there first, rather than who has a tangentially related academic degree. Or maybe there's a better way. But I suggest that the committee provide some guidance on this matter, otherwise it appears that there will be future disputes over who has to get out of the way. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
No further comment, except to say that I, like FT2, have had extensive experience of perma-banned User:HeadleyDown, and that User:Phdarts is definitely another incarnation of said editor. Black Kite 02:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
My only concern is that people bringing a sceptical viewpoint to articles are not all labelled as being socks or meatpuppets of HeadleyDown. Peter Damian's views on NLP etc are not unusual ones, and while he may have interacted with Headley on a messageboard, I'm sure he already had his own opinions on NLP or formed his own when he considered the topic. They are views I share due to my own experience and study (I hope I'm not making myself the next target by saying that.) I would hate to see people wanting to bring WP:NPOV to these articles being driven off by even more claims they are socks, proxies etc. Damian should avoid them perhaps, but only because of the existing tension between him and FT2, not because of his opinions on the subject which are by no means rare, in fact he was very conciliatory when discussing those articles with FT2 in my humble opinion. He made concession for reasons of collegial spirit that there was some evidence for some of these therapies etc, where I would not have done. I hope this makes sense and is slightly relevant.:) Sticky Parkin 12:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Where exactly do we imagine Thatcher has obtained the authority to unilaterally impose sanctions anyway? Can I simply ban FT2 from the article space with no discussion? These "conditions" are wholly illegitimate and I hope the committee is willing to recognize this. -- Random832 ( contribs) 14:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
To FT2: The ban said "Arbcom or Jimbo only". - precisely, arbcom or Jimbo only. Not arbcom and Jimbo - when Jimbo "stepped aside", the ban was gone. This "clarification" is an attempt to impose new sanctions, and should properly be a full case. -- Random832 ( contribs) 14:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I find it concerning that it is being proposed that an Arbitrator be placed on a topic ban. That an editor is even contemplating topic banning FT2 is a poor reflection in the Community's confidence in the Committee (although I make no comment as to the merits of that proposal). AGK 19:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
This isn't going to stop is it? I was largely supportive originally for the unblock - I felt Peter deserved one last chance, with the good faith understanding that he'd drop the FT2 matter completely. By that I also mean NLP and Headley Down accusations. Yet he's still at it on WR [31]. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that got him banned last time, and now he's continued during his unblock request. I don't understand why the committee are even considering an unblock whilst this sort of behaviour is carrying on. I would certainly suggest that a full case is needed before any unblock, especially when the motion that is currently being supported is effectively an editing restriction being placed on a sitting arbitrator. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 19:48, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
"...the motion that is currently being supported is effectively an editing restriction being placed on a sitting arbitrator." That shouldn't make any difference. Like some other recent cases, this isn't going to be settled until it's settled right. I hope the arbs will open a new case, go through all the evidence transparently and openly, and decide impartially. Tom Harrison Talk 14:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Having reviewed this mess -- and it is a mess -- in toto, I can see no reason not to open a full case here. We have a sitting arbitrator who is posting novella-length missives here, having them removed, and then opening pages in userspace for them. You have questions raised as to the legitimacy of this arbitrator's edits and interactions with an editor who has been previously banned for attempting to raise questions during the election of said arbitrator. This is more than a request for clarification, it's a case. It's as simple as that. The actions of all involved parties need close examination, which a clarification request does not adequately allow. SD J 05:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
1) Any ban, block, or editing restriction currently in force against Peter Damian ( talk · contribs) is terminated, and Peter Damian is permitted to edit Wikipedia subject to the terms of this motion. Peter Damian is directed not to interact with, or comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about, FT2 ( talk · contribs) on any page in Wikipedia. If Peter Damian violates this restriction, or makes any comment reasonably regarded as harassing or a personal attack, he may be reblocked for an appropriate period of time by any uninvolved administrator. Peter Damian is also strongly urged to refrain from inflammatory rhetoric concerning FT2 on other websites. If Peter Damian wishes to regain access to his original Wikipedia user account, a developer is requested to assist him in recovering his password.
1.1) The editing restrictions currently in force against Peter Damian ( talk · contribs) are rescinded, and he is permitted to edit Wikipedia.
Peter Damian and FT2 are directed not to interact with or comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about each other on any page in Wikipedia. Should Peter Damian interact with or make any comment concerning FT2, or make any other comment reasonably regarded as harassment or a personal attack, he may be blocked for an appropriate period of time by any uninvolved administrator.
In addition, Peter Damian and FT2 are strongly urged not to interact with or comment about each other on any other website or public forum.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I seek clarification on the recent principle that was passed (via a motion) in this case here - specifically, its application. It appears there is reluctance amongst administrators when it comes to enforcement - specifically with a comment/passage that appears on User:Bedford's user page:
I was a Wikipedian Administrator, but it was stolen from me without due process by a few fellow administrators who thought they should arbitrarily decide what should be and should not be on Wikipedia, despite WP:NOTCENSORED, and got me desysoped. I was once p.o.ed about it, but since then I've realized it is a greater honor to have been screwed of the status than to actually have it, as it just meant I am better than those behind the gangrape. Besides, it means I don't have to do as much as I did before.
No doubt, there are several problems with the ill-considered wording of the comment, as well as the cause for which it is written (if any). The page ended up protected amongst an edit war between User:Bedford and a few other editors. Bedford refused to change the comment when asked to, per the discussion at ANI at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Bedford_blatantly_breaking_policies....
I submit that even if it isn't necessarily BLP-related, the rule of thumb is to avoid harm. Unfortunately, there is a reluctance among admin-enforcement through full protection - the admins either seem to downplay the issue, or think greater consensus is needed - even in such a case of requiring more consensus-building, it's not unreasonable to remove a term such as "gangrape" (as an interim measure, even through full protection). I request the Committee to affirm this view and to effect such an enforcement action. Additionally, I request ArbCom to provide clarification on how the relevant principle would apply to the above passage as a whole. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 13:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
In case I miss noting it later, I wish to thank the Committee for taking the time to review this request. I respect and appreciate its views and reasoning so far, as well as anything further that may be forthcoming. Regards, Ncmvocalist ( talk) 05:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I suppose I should've disclosed the fact that I'm practically uninvolved in this matter - what goes on between Bedford, Sceptre and anyone else involved is not something I paid attention to. I only looked at the merits of this complaint; particularly, making my own conclusions after seeing the above passage/comment for myself.
I've handled enough WQA complaints to understand when something is justifiable (and/or misrepresented in the hopes of achieving a certain outcome) - that's not the issue here. Also, this isn't a mere matter of disliking the use of the term; nor is it a matter of wikilawyering via dictionary definitions - the ordinary understanding of the word 'gangrape' or 'gang-rape' isn't something that 'readers' are going to be hopping off to a dictionary for, even in the context in which it is used here. The casual use of the term suggests a low degree of sensitivity, and a high degree of avoidability. I also think it's universally known that disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point is unacceptable. My primary concern at the moment is what appears on the user page - but I won't oppose ArbCom looking at the conduct of all those involved if this is required. Surely, the principles exist for a wider reason. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:59, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I am the admin who protected Bedford's user page. While I don't agree with a lot of what Bedford has to say, and I dislike his choice of words in the paragraph that was at issue, the argument presented was ludicrous on its face. A user who has baited Bedford before comes sniveling to AN/I over a single word, clearly used in a metaphorical sense, on Bedfords's user page. (It is in the penultimate sentence of the last paragraph of a big chunk of text, not highlighted/capitalized/italicized/bolded.) Then another user, who was at the forefront of the effort to desysop Bedford, starts removing the entire paragraph from Bedford's page. After I warn him about edit-warring and 3RR, he stops, and the first user starts doing the exact same thing, at which point I fully protected the page. Note the edit summaries left by the editors seeking to remove the entire paragraph. one of Sceptre's is incivil; the first of Mixwell's is incorrect, and the second is snarky. I would encourage Bedford to change the word, but the arguments that have been presented so far in the AN/I discussion have ranged from the fatuous and sanctimonious to the inane. Sceptre's WP:IDONTHEARYOU attitude, in particular, is annoying. There is no assertion of rape, and therefore there is no personal attack. Bedford has not called anyone a rapist. I suggest Sceptre should consult a dictionary; My copy of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (Fourth edition) offers this definition for rape: 3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation. In that context, the word is justifiable. Horologium (talk) 14:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
The reason I provided the dicdef was not to wikilawyer; in fact, it was quite the opposite. Sceptre has been spinning this as "Bedford called me a rapist", when in fact he didn't say any such thing. I think it's perfectly obvious in context that he's not using the word in the literal (sexual) sense. (Sceptre is being quite disingenuous here, as Bedford's page specifically cites a few fellow administrators; Sceptre isn't one, and wasn't when the Bedford desysop occurred.) I'm not fond of the use of the word, but it's not a personal attack, and it's definitely not a WP:BLP vio, which was the justification Sceptre was using when editing Bedford's page to remove the entire paragraph, not just the offending word. The disruption is caused not by Bedford, but by Mixwell (who brought the complaint in the first place) and Sceptre (who started edit warring over it without a clear consensus). And no, there is not a clear consensus to remove, although there appears to be a consensus that it's tactless. However, "tactless" is not a criterion for removing anything from a user's page without his or her consent. We already had that argument; you may or may not remember the "Userbox wars", which nearly pulled Wikipedia's community apart. We don't need a rehash of it, over a single word on a userpage which may or may not be divisive. Horologium (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
If the committee wish it to be treated like a policy or guideline, they should, as respected members of the community, add such guidelines to WP:USER. A clarification on a year-old case is probably the worst place to put something that is expected to be enforced - if nothing else, people need to know the thing exists in the first place. I would encourage them, once again, to do so. Linking to policies or guidelines as why someone should change his user page would be much more effective than an obscure, year-old case in a system that many have probably never heard of.
But, beyond that, I think this is a poor case for the Arbcom to start with: a simple review of a few user pages would find much more egregious content, that better fits within the principles the committee espoused in that clarification. While the committee must not hold a vague statement of principles - which is what the version voted on explicitly is - as equal to policy, WP:USER contains principles that are similar, if less explicitl stated. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 16:56, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Committee;
I am filing this request after consultation with others. I believe that the current title of this case is not accurate due to the immense number of sanctions in this case, on users other than Piotrus. I am proposing therefore that it be renamed Eastern european disputes.
Geoff Plourde ( talk) 01:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I concur with this. The Piotrus 2 arbitration case ( t) ( ev / t) ( w / t) ( pd / t) involved 19 parties (or so), a substantial number of whom remedies were passed on; I don't think the current name is an appropriate title—nor one which accurately reflects the scope of the case.
Inaccurate naming gives a poor impression to editors reviewing the decision; remedying this would be a step in the direction of ensuring all decisions are easy to understand—a direction which, when proposed in the recent ArbCom RfC, the Community quite eagerly assented to.
I'm hoping the Committee can agree to retitle the case.
AGK 01:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Good proposal. Durova Charge! 01:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The case as launched was about Piotrus, renaming it distorts this and would be historically inaccurate. I didn't launch a case for all or general north-eastern european disputes (Poland, Germany, Russia & the Baltic are the countries/areas involved, not eastern europe in general), but against Piotrus, following on from Piotrus 1. Historically, the case launched was called Piotrus 2, and it is now over and that can't be changed. The arbs accepted the case and then proceeded to deal with anything subsequently raised in the evidence section, which made the case about North-Eastern Europe in general. So this would suggest splitting the case into something launched by me [and rejected?] and something dealt with by the arbs. Renaming it entirely would bury this historic fact. Moreover, Piotrus 2 follows neatly from Piotrus [1]. If it is to be renamed, make it North-Eastern Europe 2 or North-Eastern Europe 3 (with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus-Ghirla as North-Eastern Europe 1 and Piotrus 1 as North-Eastern Europe 2). Additionally, there are other Eastern and North-Eastern Europe arbitration cases which evolved [through evidence sections] from one editor to include that one editor's main allies and enemies. There are of course even more in wikipedia generally. The principle has thus not been established yet. I oppose renaming for historical reasons, but oppose general renaming less. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 18:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I have been involved in this case primary due to continues problems surrounding user:Piotrus' behavior, not because the general Eastern European topics, as current proposal would imply. Renaming will make make unnecessary confusion - completely distort my motives why I participated in it, the whole evidence section will be out of context etc.
Personally I still fail to see any solid reasons why closed case should be renamed as such; we saw such attempts to rename first Piotrus arbitration case, (which was not implemented), there was attempts during and the second Piotrus case as well [33]. M.K. ( talk) 20:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC) P.S. Now people are redrawing their statements, soon this case will be complete mess.
Given it affected many parties and Piotrus was not even the main sanctioned party (two users were banned and three restricted and two mentored, whilst Piotrus was only "urged, cautioned and admonished"), I think this is a no-brainer especially given it seems Piotrus himself had requested such a rename during the case. Orderinchaos 10:32, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
1) The case Piotrus 2 is to be renamed Eastern European Disputes and all subpages moved accordingly. Redirects will be left at the former name to prevent breaking internal links.
2) Any post-closure request for a case renaming should be submitted within 7 days (168 hours) of its closure. If this time limit is exceeded, the request will be rejected. Old cases closed before January 1st, 2009 are exempt from this motion.
Not user friendly for many people that will not know of the policy. If they file late it does not diminish the need. FloNight ♥♥♥ 19:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I ask for review of this case, in particular the Special enforcement on biographies of living persons remedy on the following grounds,
I would like an answer to the following questions,
Note: I would appreciate independent answers from all active members of the committee, considering the importance of this issue. -- Barberio ( talk) 21:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I do not think it would be appropriate to allow the process/policy to stand if the issue has been 'punted' into the distance and review postponed until some unknown later date. If you can, please provide a specifict date that this 'review' will be conducted.
Otherwise, consider this an request to conduct this review immediately, or I will open an RfC on the topic and the community may conduct one. -- Barberio ( talk) 21:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
A response to Statement by Daniel.
The results of the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee called for some pretty clear changes to the Arbitration Policy. I proposed that we put some of them to ratification at the arbitration vote.
However, I was promised that this was not needed because the committee had taken the call for change on advisement, and Wikipedia:Arbitration policy proposed updating would be enacted. So I withdrew on the understanding that the Arbitration policy would eventually be changed.
No movement had been made on that since October.
Yes, I am feeling rather "ticked off" at the Arbitration Committee for failing to follow through on promises of reform. And I am reluctant to accept promise now that they will look into it later.
I am prepared to state this... If this review does not happen in a timely manner then the issue should rightfully be removed from their hands. -- Barberio ( talk) 21:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
ps. I admire the irony of being told off for demanding immediate action, as well as being told of for trying to get problems with Arbitration addressed for A YEAR. -- Barberio ( talk) 22:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Response to Kirill. Yes, I am calling for amendment of the remedy. The questions asked are directed at identifying issues with the remedy and it's results, and how that would effect any amendment of that remedy. While the question of if the remedy as written was acceptable under the arbitration policy at the time is 'constitutional', I do feel it is an issue which needs to be addressed when amending it.
However, I am willing to drop issues of 'constitutional' scope, if I can have a binding promise of a date at which the ArbCom are willing to report to the community on reform. Unfortunately, the committee has a poor past record of responding timely to issues, and I can not help but feel that enough time was already given to respond during and after the RfC. So a deadline by which the committee will provide a report on how it will reform would be a great help to prevent distrust that the process will not occur at all -- Barberio ( talk) 23:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Judging from the votes, the Arbitration Committee is reluctant to give any indication that while they accept they should review this, they will not do so now, nor will they give any specified time at which they will do so, nor any fixed deadline by which they will provide a report. And it's odd that 'the new membership has only just arrive' is used as an excuse considering promises by candidates 'to hit the ground running', and that candidates could not be ignorant of these issues considering the public RfC.
So here's a direction...
Provide a report by April 3rd 2009 on the review of the issues involved. If I don't get anything back by then, I will restart the process to change the arbitration policy by notifying the foundation that we'll be having a ratification vote on the changes to the arbitration policy that were recommended during the RfC.
Yes. This is an ultimatum. I don't mean to prod you with sticks, this isn't a crusade, but it is direction that you can't keep saying you will 'investigate reform' without providing any. If you really can't provide some kind of report on reform in three months, then this issue is probably going to have to bypass you. -- Barberio ( talk) 04:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Reply to Jayvdb. The 'overwhelming opposition to creation of new policy/process' came from Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Arbitration_Committee#No_New_Policy. So there already was traction on overruling the arbcom's decision to create new policy/process.
However, administrators who support the use of the new policy/process have reverted any attempt to deprecate the policy, on the grounds that it is owned by the Arbitration Committee and can not be changed by the community.
Can I take this group shrugging of shoulders as sign that you don't own it, and the community can do what it wants with the page, or is Arbitration Committee ownership still claimed? -- Barberio ( talk) 12:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I'd also like to stress again one of the reasons that this needs urgent review.
The new policy/process appears to have been used by a minority as grounds to threaten use of the process in warnings that were not logged on Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Special_enforcement_log [36]. This appears to be being taken under the "Any and all means" clause, but without being logged there is not ability to ensure that it is being used appropriately, and not simply as a means to stifle otherwise appropriate discussion or content.
Since the Arbitration Committee have claimed full ownership of this process/policy, enough administrators are willing to block any community effort to alter the process/policy. This means that the community can not alter the process/policy, and it seems that the only changes that will be accepted are ones directly from the Arbitration Committee.
You broke it. So either you fix it, or allow the community to fix it. -- Barberio ( talk) 12:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Yet another reply on this...
The community can not alter the policies involved, because Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/BLP_Special_Enforcement has turned it into an "Arbitration owned" policy.
Even if the community could, what policy would be acceptable by the arbitration committee? How do we know what the requirements are going to be for you to decide to lift Special Enforcement? Can we then go back and change the BLP policy later, or is it going to be carved in stone again?
Frankly, and to risk being incivil, you guys haven't thought any of this through have you? You've not sat down and worked out the implications of this mess. You're now refusing to do so, or at least refusing to say when you will do so, despite it being a major issue, and one that decided a lot of people's votes in the election. And you're refusing to allow the community to fix it, by still claiming ownership of the process/policy.
Why are you acting in a way that damages this wiki?-- Barberio ( talk) 13:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't think threatening the Committee with an RfC if they don't do exactly what you want, right now, is either appropriate or an intelligent move. The community cannot overrule this motion, except by overruling each individual application of it, so a community RfC is pointless unless, of course, you simply intend to continue your crusade against the Committee which I have observed over the last year. Daniel ( talk) 21:40, 1 January 2009 (UTC)