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-- Rosiestep ( talk) 18:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Hi SusunW. Is finding sources in Spanish something you could help with? I seem to remember asking you about this before, but I can't recall when or where; so if I'm misremembering, my apologies. Vanamonde ( Talk) 20:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 I will certainly give it a try. Kind of depends on what the subject is and when/where they are from. SusunW ( talk) 21:27, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm looking for reliable sources about Otto Reich in Spanish, but I think the threshold for reliability needs to be high; there's a lot of tabloid press about him. I would especially appreciate any sources that can verify that he won the Orden del Libertador from Venezuela in the 1980s. Vanamonde ( Talk) 21:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 Let me give it a shot, but I'll tell you right off the bat Venezuelan sources are hard and 1960-1990 is worse. I'll keep you posted. SusunW ( talk) 22:43, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Off the bat, I find nada, except in Ecuador, El Universo, [1], which says between 1986 and 1989. Still looking. SusunW ( talk) 22:43, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 Checked (in English/Spanish) newspapers.com, newspaperarchive.com, Gaceta Oficial de la República de Venezuela (whose search engine totally is awful), scielo, hathitrust. I find nothing at all regarding Reich and the Order. By changing the search engine to google.co.ve, I find one other source, but it's labeled as an opinion piece. [2] I also found this which covers the two presidencies of Carlos Andrés Pérez (1974-1979)/(1989-1993) and while it mentions that Reich was ambassador between 6 June 1986 and 22 October 1990. It gives no other information on his tenure (though it does list recipients of the Order during the time frames above, which leads me to believe that if indeed Reich received the Order, it was from President Jaime Lusinchi). I'll do some more checking tomorrow. SusunW ( talk) 00:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Much appreciated, thank you! My Spanish is (still) rudimentary; I'd found the panamaamerica source, but none of the others...I can't help but wonder at the veracity of the award, now. I also wonder if somewhere there is a list of recipients; if it's the country's highest award, do they not keep a record? Odd. Vanamonde ( Talk) 03:50, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 I thought that if there was a list it would be in the Gaceta, but I find nothing like that, but admittedly the search engine is screwy. But the fact that both of the US ambassadors got the award during Carlos Andrés Pérez's tenure seems like it is logical for Reich to have received it. Searching Lusinchi and Reich, I get this piece pp14-15 (It is easier to translate and read from the webcache). The big issue with Venezuela is that there have been 2 major coups (which overall leads to instability and a lack/obscuring of records) and of course the 1980s was pre-internet, so, on-line is an issue. Latin America in general is not well digitized. SusunW ( talk) 04:51, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Wow, that was buried deep...thank you so much! Vanamonde ( Talk) 14:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

( talk page stalker) I seem to remember that Scann has access to some Spanish language sources, so pinging them in case they have something to add here. -- Rosiestep ( talk) 14:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Rosiestep It often takes a village to get sources for an article. I love how well we all network to improve them. SusunW ( talk) 14:51, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Most of the sources seem to be using Wikipedia as a source. I'd say that it's a dubious claim that he ever got a Orden del Libertador. Hope this helps. Scann ( talk) 16:24, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I have mostly been off-line this week. @ Vanamonde93 and Scann: I don't know if it is dubious or not, but I know the English wp article was created 28 March 2005‎ (es 2019, de 29 March 2005, fr 2013, sh 28 October 2005, and ar 2016). All of those dates are after the Panamá América article of 2002 and the El Universo of 2003, thus it does not appear that wp was the source. SusunW ( talk) 16:30, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated. Vanamonde ( Talk) 18:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

— Maile ( talk) 12:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 12:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps you could expand it a bit? Wonder if it was created as part of some drive, but right now it reads... not good. Take a look :(-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:14, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Piotrus Let me finish the one I am working on and I'll look at it. May be a day or so. SusunW ( talk) 15:11, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure. The Polish article is a bit longer but it still doesn't seem to contain any indication of notability; being a wife / mother etc. is sadly not sufficient, but I don't want to prod it without a second opinion, and I thought you'd be the best person to look into this. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Piotrus I think we are okay now. Lots more sources out there but we have a basic bio now, on RS, with an adequate claim for notability, IMO. SusunW ( talk) 19:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I will try to expand this into a DYK in a few days: Maria Kownacka - an old stub of mine, unreferenced until few days ago... should make for an interesting story (creating children books and magazines during wartime, etc.). -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

PS. Seems good for a DYK too :) Ping me and I'll be happy to review it when you nom it. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:50, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Piotrus, I don't nominate stuff for DYK, but Yoninah did it, if you'd like to review it. SusunW ( talk) 03:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Great work on Patsy Mink. Thank you, so much. I hope you don't mind . . . 'but', would it be somewhat ok for me to rearrange the lead and basically move her firsts and major legislative accomplishments to the first para, with 'life story' to follow? Perhaps, if you say it's ok, I could make the changes, and you can revert all if you don't like them? Or just tell me, no. Thanks for your time. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 21:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Alanscottwalker, thanks! As long as what is in the lede is something that is in the body and cited, it's not a problem. I always try to do it chronologically after a one/two sentence intro, but feel free to modify it. I certainly don't own it, and as long as it still meets GA criteria, improvements are welcome. SusunW ( talk) 21:34, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Great! I am just thinking of moving what is already there, so just other slight connecting changes, etc. I probably won't get to it till tomorrow. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 21:39, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Alanscottwalker Trust me, I am hip deep in writing about the women of Alcatraz. Unless you need me, I'll have my head in those bios I'm working on. ;) SusunW ( talk) 21:43, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

— Maile ( talk) 00:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

SusunWThe links I have:

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.OmnSRXUaDQx0jlaewd2LBwHaLg?pid=Api&rs=1

It sources to this photo included with the E-version of the memoir but bing also attaches it to Navajo, Blackfoot, Arapaho and Commanche as well as Cherokee:

https://www.amazon.in/Memoir-Catharine-Brown-Christian-Annotated-ebook/dp/B07XYZ29JZ

Tsistunagiska, I'll go through them one at a time. First image, looks like a cabinet card, and it was created/published in El Reno, Oklahoma Territory. We know it was made before 1907, but it is unlikely to be our subject who died in 1823 since the first photograph of a person was not made until 1838. Checking archive.org, I found the first printing of her book, which contains only an etching. This article from the Chronicles of Oklahoma talks about her, but has no photographs. My guess is that the photograph does not depict Catharine, but the etching could be used, as it was published in 1832. SusunW ( talk) 20:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

This is the photo of the "Old Mission" Creek Path Mission:

https://www.marshallco.org/album/slides/Gvill%201914%20presbyterian%20mission%20oldest%20house%20in%20county%20school.jpg

Tsistunagiska This one appears to be a postcard and if you go to the parent directory here it says it was published in 1914. You should be good to upload it. SusunW ( talk) 21:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

This is the image of the Creek Path historical marker. It gives me no information on it:

https://www.bing.com/images/blob?bcid=TrRD1tGklrcBtA

Tsistunagiska This clipping tells me that the marker was installed in 1959, so any photograph of it had to be taken after that time and is probably covered by a copyright of whoever made it. SusunW ( talk) 21:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Also have this picture of the marker for the Brainerd Mission near Chattanooga, TN as taken by Eddie Douthitt:

https://landmarkhunter.com/180584-brainerd-mission-cemetery/

Thanks, for the help

Tsistunagiska Eddie Douthitt would own the copyright for the Brainerd Mission marker. You could try e-mailing him to see if he would release it. By the way, I searched on flickr.com and found no free images for markers for either of these. I also searched on commons and found nothing for the first marker. There are pictures of graves and the gate at Brainerd Cemetery, but no marker. You could always message the uploaders of those files to see if they have/could take photos of the marker. Interestingly, I did find a link to the National Park Service registry for Brainerd cemetery which has a photo of its entrance. I am not very clear on how we determine if this is a photo made by a government employee but @ GRuban and GreenMeansGo: are usually who I ask. SusunW ( talk) 21:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

You look around on the site until you find a page that talks about copyright, public domain, etc., and see what it says. In this case this seems to be this one: https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/disclaimer.htm which says

Copyright law does not protect “any work of the U.S. Government” where “a work prepared by an officer or employee of the U.S. Government as part of that person's official duties” (See, 17 U.S.C. §§ 101, 105). Thus, material created by the NPS and presented on this website, unless otherwise indicated, is generally considered in the public domain. It may be distributed or copied as permitted by applicable law.

So you look and see if that image is "otherwise indicated": that would usually be text saying something like "courtesy of Jane Schmoe" or "photograph by BigCompany" or something like that. I don't see anything like that there. So since there isn't anything "otherwise indicated" we can assume this is an image by an NPS employee, and can be safely uploaded to Wikimedia Commons as a work by the US Federal Government. -- GRuban ( talk) 22:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you GRuban Truly appreciate your help. SusunW ( talk) 22:54, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

SusunW I added some images[ [3]]. Let me know what you think

Tsistunagiska Great! Truly, I often find images to be the hardest part. SusunW ( talk) 02:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

SusunW Do you think it's ready to "go live"? If so what do I do now? Tsistunagiska ( talk) 03:00, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska Whenever you are ready at the top there is a tab that says "More". Underneath it if you click on it, it will say "move". click on that and a new screen will appear. Change New title field to (article) -- you'll probably have to scroll up -- tab and type "Catharine Brown" and then tab and type "article to mainspace". Click on the box to Watch and then the blue "move page" button. Once it has moved, edit it to removed the leading colons on the categories.

Go the the disambiguation page on Catherine Brown and add a link to your page.

Go to the wikidata page and at the very bottom, where it says Wikipedia, push edit, type en and the Catharine Brown (a drop down should let you select it) and publish.

Go to the talk page and create project pages like this one changing the name to Catharine Brown and removing the politics and government info.

List it on the editathon page if you want.

Not necessary, but I always then ask Ian to do a copyedit to improve it. SusunW ( talk) 03:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm off to bed, but will check back in tomorrow morning. You really did a lovely job for your first article. Congrats! SusunW ( talk) 03:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

SusunW Still being very new, I found pictures of Isabel Cobb on various websites. A few of them say they were published with Courtesy, not sure what that means, still others attribute nothing. Others have a brief caption but saying nothing about a copyright. Would love to add some photos but don't want to be in violation. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 00:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska, typically "courtesy of" means that they are privately held photographs (often that have not been published previously) and for which the poster does not control the copyright. Wikipedia is very strict about copyright. You must prove when a photograph was first published, which is really hard, as so many web photos are copyright violations. It is not adequate for Wiki purposes for a photograph to have been created before 1925, you must prove that it was actually published. You can search through newspapers.com, newspaperarchives.com, archive.org, Library of Congress website, hathitrust, etc. to see if you can find photographs published before 1925, which can be confirmed with an actual publishing date, but it is a tedious project. If it is a photograph published after 1925 made by a photographer who died more than 70 years ago, (and you must verify death date) or one for which no copyright was specified, it may also qualify. That means you must verify that there was no copyright mark on the medium (i.e. book, newspaper, magazine) at the time of publication, nor on the photograph itself, and that it was not registered or renewed. You can look up registrations here or check for renewals at copyright.gov. If it is a modern photograph, it is covered by copyright unless the person who created the image has released it into the public domain. Again, if you want to give me links, I can try to help you back into publishing dates. SusunW ( talk) 13:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: I'll post links to the sites I found pictures of her on. I avoid sites like pinterest altogether. Too unreliable. Anything modern would be related to NSU and their facilities like Isabel Cobb Hall. Photographer is unknown but would believe is an employee of the university which can be cleared up if they would return my email. I lament, we live in Covid-19 times. I still am compiling a bibliography for her which I will add to the article. Found a nice little article in the Tulsa World News that shared about Wagoner's declared Dr. Belle Cobb Day back in 2016. It's a neat read.

• timesfreepress.com top photograph; did notice someone misappropriated an attribution on pinterest by calling the woman on the far end as Isabel when, in fact, its the woman at top center.
• whitewolfpack.com this photo is common all over the web
• findagrave.com again posted here along with photos of her gravesite
• cherokeephoenix.org and again here w/Courtesy
• There is one in Mullins, Jonita (2019) Oklahoma Originals: Early Heroes, Heroines. Villains and Vixens with Isabel in her buggy but I would need to get in touch with the Wagoner Historical Museum in order to display it. Its a possible future endeavour. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 14:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska The first one for all we know from the link was first published when the Times Free Press published it in 2016. But, I found a copy of it here, published in 1921 by Emmet Starr. To upload it, you will need to indicate that the author is unknown but Starr published it in his book. The next three are all the same photo, but none give us any evidence of when the image was first published or who took it. I have found nothing that indicates who has ownership of the photo and would conclude then that it isn't usable. This can be used. This is a lovely photo but cannot be used because if you look at the first blue tab, the magazine itself is copyrighted, though the photo does not bear a mark. I'm giving you these so you can see what to look for. (note, your page should be titled Isabel Cobb. You should then do a redirect to Belle Cobb, like this. The Manner of Style (MOS) does not allow articles to be titled with nicknames in this manner. Articles should be titled with the most common name per the sources, for a subject, and then redirects can be created for alt names.) SusunW ( talk) 14:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: Good finds. I used the internet archive link you supplied originally to find that editorial. That's the one I talked about where the editor seemed a little condescending of her. I figured that one was copyrighted since it was published in 1960 and digitally published in 2016 without even looking further. You are right, it is lovely. I'll make due with what we have. If I do get written permission from owners/originators or those who retain the permissions of a photograph, not currently looking at the the policy, would that suffice? Also, I'll change the name of the article. Thanks for that tidbit of information. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 14:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska There is a protocol for obtaining permission but I have no idea how to do it. Ask George (GRuban) as I know he knows how. SusunW ( talk) 14:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: Thank you. Sooo.. instrumental. I think this is the best we can do for pictures, for now. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 15:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska Looks good. 2 things, add the category "Media supported by WikiProject Women in Red - 2020" to the Commons' page and add links to the photos to the "Outcomes (media)" section here. I forgot to tell you to do that on Brown. SusunW ( talk) 16:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: Is it supposed to display it as a hidden a category? Tsistunagiska ( talk) 16:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska Yes. Again it is to facilitate confirming metrics for photographs on the project. SusunW ( talk) 16:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: Great! Making sure I am doing this right. I can go back and do the ones for Brown. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 16:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska, you're doing fine. As I said, the learning curve is long. It took me years to learn some of the stuff I am able to tell you. SusunW ( talk) 16:19, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: I may have to take a long road trip soon and visit some of these places and take pictures for myself of locations. I have done the "Trail of Tears" before and we took the most northerly route as much as we could which is most likely the route my "grandfather and grandmother" back eight generations took in 1838. My great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents were in their late 20's when the Trail of Tears happened. They made the journey with my "grandmothers" parents and even her grandfather was alive. He died along the Trail. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 16:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

That would be a cool trip, Tsistunagiska. My own family came via Tennessee to Missouri/Arkansas and then lived around Braggs Mountain. They were not Cherokee, rather licensed traders and teamsters for the tribe, but several of the siblings married Cherokee women. My husband and I tracked their trail many years ago driving from Sullivan County, Tennessee back west. SusunW ( talk) 17:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: I took a trip from Alaska to Montana, through the Dakotas and all the other states to Philadelphia, PA and then up to New York. Next was down to Tellico Plains, TN; Nashville; Hopkinsville, KY; Jackson, MO; Springfield to Tahlequah, OK. I actually stopped in a place called Rose, Oklahoma. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 17:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska, when I was a kid, we took the entire month of August every year and traversed the US in a stationwagon with a tent trailer. (I had one great uncle who lived in Alaska and another who lived in Hawaii, thus giving us a reason to go there too). By the time I was 14, we been to every state in the US and many of them more than once. It gave me a penchant for travel that has (and will probably never be) satisfied. SusunW ( talk) 17:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: I understand that feeling completely! I love to travel. One of my brothers and I lived in Nepal for about a year. Seems like forever ago. I spent months in India. Of course I have been all over Europe and to almost every state in the US. But my favorite trips were the annual ones my Papa took us on when we drove down to Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Idaho and back to Montana. Every year we spent weeks taking our time going from place to place. It gave a little girl and, eventually, a young woman the room to grow, dream and explore. Something I will never forget. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 18:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsistunagiska, yes "the room to grow, dream and explore". I insisted that my husband obtain a passport and a voter's registration card before I would agree to marry him. LOL (I truly did). He and I have traveled all over the place and lived in various countries too. SusunW ( talk) 18:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@ SusunW: I was married, once...I'm too independent...LOL Tsistunagiska ( talk) 19:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 12:02, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Women in Red | September 2020, Volume 6, Issue 9, Numbers 150, 151, 176, 177 Online events: New: Women writers | Women in conflict zones Interwiki collaborations: Women of WWII Continuing initiatives: #1day1woman | BLM/Anti-discrimination Help us plan future events: Virtual Ideas Cafe Join the conversation: Women in Red talkpage Stay in touch: Join WikiProject Women in Red | Opt-out of notifications Social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

-- Megalibrarygirl ( talk) 17:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

• [3]
  • continuation: [4]
• [5]
• [6]
  • continuation: [7]
• [8]
• [9]
• [10]
• [11]
• [12]
  • continuation: [13]

Best, Yoninah ( talk) 15:48, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Yoninah, you are a lifesaver. Thank you so much for your help. SusunW ( talk) 15:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Here ye are. Trying to decide whether to put it up at FPC, but think that's about as much as ye can do with the image. Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.4% of all FPs} 13:25, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden, I have no idea how you do that, but thank you so much for your work! SusunW ( talk) 14:08, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

No worries! It's up at WP:FPC, we'll see how it goes - original is kind of grainy. Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.4% of all FPs} 14:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Has four supports. That's one short of quorum, but there's two days left. Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.4% of all FPs} 15:52, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Would that I felt qualified to vote on images, but I don't. I read the comments on other nominations and have no idea what they are talking about. Fingers crossed. It is now a beautiful picture and I am so thankful for your work. SusunW ( talk) 16:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. If it doesn't pass, I'll just renominate it in a month. The La Esmeralda image also got stuck at four, so I think it's just a slow period at FPC. Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.4% of all FPs} 19:19, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Yep. Back next month, it will be. Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.4% of all FPs} 18:49, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

August

August

Sunflowers in Walsdorf

Thank you for improving articles in August! -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 15:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Been a tough month with lots of stuff on my plate, but I have managed to do a few really significant Native women. Thank you so much for your encouragement Gerda Arendt. It truly means everything. SusunW ( talk) 15:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It's been tough for me as well, a dear family member died, yes, a woman, lung cancer and others, diagnosed too late, struggled for two year. While we knew the day would come, it was still hard. What are our little debates in comparison? Best wishes. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 19:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

A first for me today: a featured list (= a featured topic in this case) on the Main page, see Wikipedia:Main Page history/2020 August 21, an initiative by Aza24 in memory of Brian. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:37, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for expanding Chopin's mother. Wondering about her name, seeing this and the Polish Wikipedia. I am not familiar with names in Poland at the time, but am sure that Chopin is more recognizable. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:54, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't create it, merely expanded it. If you think it should be moved, feel free. I trust your judgment on it, Gerda Arendt. SusunW ( talk) 22:01, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Compare Fanny Hensel, and it's right. I don't have time for a discussion, and I have a tendency to loose requested moves and others, again compare ;) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 05:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Rhythm Is It! - I expanded that stub on my dad's birthday because we saw the film together back then, and were impressed. As a ref said: every educator should see it. Don't miss the trailer, for a starter. - A welcome chance to present yet another article by Brian on the Main page, Le Sacre du printemps. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 14:05, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Lovely! Isn't it interesting how things that were significant to us personally can lead to article creation and expansion. I managed to get more articles done than I thought I would, but each one led to the next as I worked my way through the women of Alcatraz. Such a watershed moment for Native Americans in the US and so many later leaders were there. SusunW ( talk) 14:47, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Done! I don't think it has any real chance at FPC - that is an unfortunate crop - but it's certainly good for her article. I researched it a bit. Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.4% of all FPs} 21:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden yes, but it was the best one I found, so am glad to have a photo. One of those totally serendipitous instances where you are looking for another Dr. Beulah Allen and run into someone history has forgotten who needs an article. Thank you so much! SusunW ( talk) 22:13, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Beulah Ream Allen receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom - Well, what do I know? Boyfriend convinced me I should nominate it, as I liked it but was worried about the crop, and... Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.4% of all FPs} 17:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden Woot! And yes, that "what to categorize her" thing was hard. Not military, but recognized by the military seems pretty special. And thanks to your boyfriend for pushing you to submit it. SusunW ( talk) 17:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time piecing together Allen's schooling. This is what I have so far:

• 1954, started at Barnard College [14]
• 1955, attended Arizona State College [15]
• 1956, junior year at University of Oregon [16]
• (?), attended University of Arizona (during or sometime before 1958) [17] [18]
• 1958, received Scholarship for Cornell [19]
• 1959, received Scholarship for Cornell [20]
• 1958, 1959, attended first and second year at Cornell Medical College (the book mentions A. B. 1958 - University of Arizona; does this mean she graduated with a B.A. in 1958 from U of A? Or that she was working towards an A.B. at Cornell?) [21] [22]
• 1961, graduated from University of Arizona with a degree in Anthropology [23] [24] [25]
• (?) attended University of Florida medical school for first two years of medical training (sometime before 1981 or 1977) [26] [27]
• 1977 think this must be 1979, accepted to University of Arizona College of Medicine [28] applied to U of A but was turned down
• OR 1978, accepted to medical school (unspecified) [29] [30]
• 1980, received Fellowship to attend University of Arizona [31]
• 1981, graduated from University of Arizona College of Medicine with a medical degree [32] [33]

If you have time, do these look correct to you (it seems like a lot, but I know a lot of schooling has to happen to be a doctor)? The sources make it seem like she's attended three colleges of medicine, and graduated from at least two, so I'm wondering if all of them are correct (I also can't tell which years she attended Cornell). - Whisperjanes ( talk) 14:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Whisperjanes Yes, she transferred a lot, mainly because she had to work and go to school, I gather. Her undergraduate work is as you say, except you need to insert University of Arizona after the University of Oregon. Since we don't know when she went there (I tried looking in their yearbooks (Melvin, Beulah, Cremer all with no result), I would just say she transferred to the University of Arizona and then attended Cornell in 1958 and 1959. Then next part of her schooling is harder. The first clipping says she graduated from med school at the University of Florida and on pg 2 says she "headed south" with her family to go to school. I looked at a map and Fort Defiance is south of U of A, so it could be Florida is a red herring (typo?). Found this which says nada about Florida and also says she got her BA in 1961 in anthropology. Went back to newspapers and found these: [34] [35]. The last one says she studied for 2 years at the University of Florida and then finished med school at the University of Arizona. Hope that helps. SusunW ( talk) 16:00, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I am in awe of how doggedly determined she was to get an education. I understand that. I worked full time and attended university for 10 years, so I can attest to how hard that is. SusunW ( talk) 16:06, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I am in awe too. She really committed decades to her medical degree, and was working while she was at it. Cheers to you as well - 10 years sounds like a lot of determination and hard work.

I hope you don't mind, but I've changed the list at the top to update it with the new sources you've provided (thank you for them!), just to keep everything clear in one place. Looking at everything again, I think you're right that she attended U of A after Oregon and before Cornell. I also think she maybe hadn't gotten a bachelors yet, and was working towards one at Cornell (the "A.B."), and then attended U of A again later to finish up the Bachelors in 1961 (which is why the only mention of a Bachelors degree in later sources is about U of A). Also, sidenote - I'm very sleepy at the moment, so hopefully I didn't miss something above! Feel free to point out/correct anything if I did. - Whisperjanes ( talk) 06:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Whisperjanes Rule of thumb on historical dates, the closer a report is to the event the more likely it is to be accurate. People tend to forget (or choose to change) events over time. It seems likely, knowing school starts in September that she attended Florida in 1977-1978 and 1978-1979 and the finished in Arizona from 1979-1981. Med school is typically 6 years. She took 2 at Cornell, so had 4 to go, so this time line makes sense. She was not in Florida in 1975 [36], so it is illogical that she was accepted in Arizona in 1977 after 2 years in Florida. Easiest way around it is to state she applied to medical school at UofA and was rejected, so she spent 2 years at UofF before graduating with her medical degree in 1981. If you want to be totally accurate, we can insert a note with the various discrepancies. SusunW ( talk) 16:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

That rule of thumb is good to know (and makes sense). Also, I think I maybe misread/misunderstood this article: [37]. It says she was accepted "here in 1977 after her first two years of medical training at the University of Florida." I assumed "here" meant Arizona / UA College of Medicine, which is where I got the 1977 from (although it's completely possible she started later, especially with the other source discrepancy). Either way, I think your suggestion above is best, about saying she applied, was rejected, spent the two years at Florida, and then graduated in 1981, etc. That's what I'll add for now unless I find some more clarifying sources out there with exact dates. Thanks again for all your help :) These sources are very much appreciated. - Whisperjanes ( talk) 16:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Whisperjanes No problem at all. Glad to help. Analysis is hard and far too often sources are taken at face value without clarifying issues like we have here. Looking at all of the evidence and weighing it is valuable due diligence. SusunW ( talk) 17:58, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I thought you told me that this site is okay. But someone just removed it from my article. Yoninah ( talk) 20:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Yoninah It's not a "low quality ref" as Scope creep alleges: WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD. It is a primary source, which is used in a limited capacity and simply stating what it says is not OR. (Though I must say that personally, I rarely list full birth dates for living people.) SusunW ( talk) 20:25, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I continue to use it to confirm marriage and death dates. With a film bio, I'm worried that someone is going to cite Internet Movie Database, so I do try to find reliable sources. What do you know, the Abilene Reporter-News was practically tracking every resident's life, and I found her birth printed there a few hours after she was born! Thanks, Yoninah ( talk) 20:41, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Yoninah, yes, I always use it to cross-check dates. Great minds think alike, I had just gone to Newspapers.com to search and saw that you clipped the birth notice. SusunW ( talk) 20:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

So you got your subscription back? Yoninah ( talk) 20:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Yoninah Yes, I had renewed it but it took them over a week to get it functional again. No idea why it took so long, but it was hard to be without it. I literally use it almost every day. It's invaluable for women's bios. SusunW ( talk) 20:51, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy for you. It also helps me tremendously with 1940s film reviews. Yoninah ( talk) 21:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Yoninah I'm happy you have it in the event mine goes out again ;). Sue's and mine renew at the same time, so she was out at the same time as me. I put it on my calendar for a week before it renews next year, so hopefully I don't end up in the same boat again. But, I totally appreciate your helping me secure links during that week. SusunW ( talk) 21:37, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

My pleasure! Yoninah ( talk) 22:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Beulah Ream Allen you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Esculenta -- Esculenta ( talk) 16:22, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 12:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

The article Beulah Ream Allen you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Beulah Ream Allen for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Esculenta -- Esculenta ( talk) 05:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of which, that image of her getting the Presidential Medal of Freedom? Featured picture as of earlier today. And it looks like Sándor Vay is all but guaranteed to pass (5 supports, 0 opposes) Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.5% of all FPs} 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden Woo Hoo! And did you see the clip I gave you on Rosie's page on Auld? SusunW ( talk) 22:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Don't think so. I'll have a look. Adam Cuerden ^{( talk)}_{Has about 7.5% of all FPs} 22:32, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Alba Roballo you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of SerAntoniDeMiloni -- SerAntoniDeMiloni ( talk) 19:41, 19 September 2020 (UTC)