Are these changes correct? https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Back_to_the_Future%3A_The_Musical&diff=1165723169&oldid=1165516468 This guy has been edit warring about them, but is he (she?) right? All the best, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 05:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, what exactly happened? My apologies, I have been offline for a little while. I did see this one user is Edit Warring with you, but I don't necessarily know what is going on. Can you specify what is going on to catch me up? Smitty1999 ( talk) 07:06, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- He is making minor changes to things like page numbers. Can you please check his changes to see if he is correct? https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Back_to_the_Future%3A_The_Musical&diff=1165723169&oldid=1165516468 Thanks! -- Ssilvers ( talk) 16:56, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Why would you remove table captions, which are required accessibility features for the blind? How is that an improvement? ― Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 20:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- No other casting tables have that. That was the first time I have seen formatting like that. I don't know why you would question me here instead of starting a discussion page on
WP:MUSICALS or
WP:THEATRE and bringing this up there.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:06, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Because you did it. Why would I bring it up there when it's a site-wide requirement in every table? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf I, along with many others, have made numerous edits to tables and this is the first time I have been made away of this. You should bring this up on those groups to verify.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Verify what? What are you talking about? Did you read MOS:DTAB? There is no special exemption where the blind don't need to navigate about musical casts. See also below where I have already posted to the two WikiProjects informing them of this universal requirement. Please undo your removal. ― Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 21:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf I, along with many others, have made numerous edits to tables and this is the first time I have been made away of this. You should bring this up on those groups to verify.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
-
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Musical_Theatre#Persistent_accessibility_issues,
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Theatre#Persistent_accessibility_issues. Please undo your removals. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf Since this is a dispute, we must wait until we hear from the experts. We both must not engage on this until we get concensus. I apologize for not being made aware of this but we need to make sure if this can be implemented, which means there are a WHOLE BUNCH of tables that need to be updated.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- You are not answering my questions and it's really frustrating and confusing to me why. How is it an improvement to remove things that help the blind? Have you read
MOS:DTAB, which explicitly states hat these are required? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf, ok, chill out. Let me talk to someone who is an expert on this and I will get back to you.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
-
WT:ACCESSIBLE/
WT:ACCESSIBILITY. See if anyone there is on your side about how removing these is a good idea. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I just sent a message to the expert. Look, I want to help, but I need to make sure this is the correct thing to do before undoing my edits.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'll ask this a third time: Have you read
MOS:DTAB? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- And I will answer a third time, yes. That said, we need to get consensus before doing anything else. You seem to be the only one bringing this to my attention. You need to be patient!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- You never wrote that you read this page. As you can see, it is required. There is no discussion that is needed on every single individual table. You chose to remove it, so you can unremove it at any time and make the table conform to the requirements. See also
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Why do I have to have this conversation over and over again? There are millions of tables on this site and I spend as much time trying to convince someone to actually just implement this simple feature to help the blind as I do actually doing the work. This is mind-boggling to me. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I have been making edits to casting tables and ONCE AGAIN, NO ONE HAS ADDED CAPTIONS TO CASTING TABLES before! You need to bring this to the entire community that I linked previously so that consensus can be reached. I don't know what else to say! Stop flooding my personal talk page!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- There is consensus about this! It's required site-wide. The entire point of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is that we don't do this over and over again and every single individual or group of individuals needs to personally ratify everything. As I have asked you many times already, how is removing table captions an improvement? Since you know for a fact that they are required on all data tables and you also know that they help other users navigate the site, who is helped and what is better off if they are taken out of
- rticles?a ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I removed them because they are not on other articles. Since you have provided the information but seem to be the only one mentioning it, I cannot undo my edits until I hear from other experts. You do not get to enforce your way and I am not going to keep arguing with you about it. Clarify with other experts to get a wider consensus! If a majority agrees, then you can start implementing it. I am done having this conversation. You also seem to mention on another user's page that you have a restriction on reverting. So, you seem to have some issue with other people's edits. Please do not enter someone's talk page just to start a dispute. You can do this on group pages. Enough!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- You can undo your edits and it's not "my way": the community wrote the MoS. You are imposing your way. What "experts" are there about accessibility who are opposed to table captions? There already is a wider consensus: that's how the Mos got written. If you chose to not respond, that's fine and well, but please stop acting like things are true when they are not. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Actually it's not "my way" this is the first time that I've heard about this. So, please reach out to everyone else. Don't know why you chose me specifically. Something like this should be brought up on a group!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 22:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I already answered this. It's because you did it. This is a site-wide rule. We're talking in circles and you aren't even attempting to pay attention to what I write. Please stop making edits that are hostile to the blind. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 22:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, hostile is overstepping it. Just stop. Smitty1999 ( talk) 22:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I already answered this. It's because you did it. This is a site-wide rule. We're talking in circles and you aren't even attempting to pay attention to what I write. Please stop making edits that are hostile to the blind. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 22:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Actually it's not "my way" this is the first time that I've heard about this. So, please reach out to everyone else. Don't know why you chose me specifically. Something like this should be brought up on a group!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 22:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- You can undo your edits and it's not "my way": the community wrote the MoS. You are imposing your way. What "experts" are there about accessibility who are opposed to table captions? There already is a wider consensus: that's how the Mos got written. If you chose to not respond, that's fine and well, but please stop acting like things are true when they are not. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I removed them because they are not on other articles. Since you have provided the information but seem to be the only one mentioning it, I cannot undo my edits until I hear from other experts. You do not get to enforce your way and I am not going to keep arguing with you about it. Clarify with other experts to get a wider consensus! If a majority agrees, then you can start implementing it. I am done having this conversation. You also seem to mention on another user's page that you have a restriction on reverting. So, you seem to have some issue with other people's edits. Please do not enter someone's talk page just to start a dispute. You can do this on group pages. Enough!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I have been making edits to casting tables and ONCE AGAIN, NO ONE HAS ADDED CAPTIONS TO CASTING TABLES before! You need to bring this to the entire community that I linked previously so that consensus can be reached. I don't know what else to say! Stop flooding my personal talk page!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- You never wrote that you read this page. As you can see, it is required. There is no discussion that is needed on every single individual table. You chose to remove it, so you can unremove it at any time and make the table conform to the requirements. See also
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Why do I have to have this conversation over and over again? There are millions of tables on this site and I spend as much time trying to convince someone to actually just implement this simple feature to help the blind as I do actually doing the work. This is mind-boggling to me. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- And I will answer a third time, yes. That said, we need to get consensus before doing anything else. You seem to be the only one bringing this to my attention. You need to be patient!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'll ask this a third time: Have you read
MOS:DTAB? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I just sent a message to the expert. Look, I want to help, but I need to make sure this is the correct thing to do before undoing my edits.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
-
WT:ACCESSIBLE/
WT:ACCESSIBILITY. See if anyone there is on your side about how removing these is a good idea. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf, ok, chill out. Let me talk to someone who is an expert on this and I will get back to you.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- And yes, there are a lot of tables to be fixed, which is why I would prefer to not have some huge timesink over and over again where someone says, "I don't know what this is, so I'm going to argue about it". Please undo your edit. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf After having a conversation with user Ssilvers, who is an expert on Wikipedia, he confirmed that the additional captions are not required for casting tables. They make them even more bloated. Visually impaired people can listen for the heading "Cast and characters" which serves as a "caption" that would lead to the tables being read aloud. I do not know what else to tell you. Take it or leave it! If you have any further issue, then report me. I have done nothing wrong here. The next time you wanna discuss something like this, you create a thread on the talk page instead of creating an unnecessary thread on my personal talk page. Make better choices next time!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 03:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- They are 100% required. Please see
MOS:DTAB. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 04:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- No they're not. I'm not going to continue to argue with you.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 10:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Data tables should always include a caption." ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 11:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- I’m Done having this conversation! It's gone far enough! Let it go! Smitty1999 ( talk) 11:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Data tables should always include a caption." ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 11:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- No they're not. I'm not going to continue to argue with you.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 10:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- They are 100% required. Please see
MOS:DTAB. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 04:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf After having a conversation with user Ssilvers, who is an expert on Wikipedia, he confirmed that the additional captions are not required for casting tables. They make them even more bloated. Visually impaired people can listen for the heading "Cast and characters" which serves as a "caption" that would lead to the tables being read aloud. I do not know what else to tell you. Take it or leave it! If you have any further issue, then report me. I have done nothing wrong here. The next time you wanna discuss something like this, you create a thread on the talk page instead of creating an unnecessary thread on my personal talk page. Make better choices next time!
Smitty1999 (
talk) 03:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- You are not answering my questions and it's really frustrating and confusing to me why. How is it an improvement to remove things that help the blind? Have you read
MOS:DTAB, which explicitly states hat these are required? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Koavf Since this is a dispute, we must wait until we hear from the experts. We both must not engage on this until we get concensus. I apologize for not being made aware of this but we need to make sure if this can be implemented, which means there are a WHOLE BUNCH of tables that need to be updated.
Smitty1999 (
talk) 21:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Because you did it. Why would I bring it up there when it's a site-wide requirement in every table? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)