Hey friend, I am trying to figure out what is causing the mass deletion of information on this page. I feel like enough external sources have been added of third party articles to cite information. Let me know how I can improve it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:59C8:1505:A710:D516:60A:61B2:F90E ( talk) 13:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Here's one example. You added a chunk of text describing the "Super Bowl Breakfast", SELF-SOURCED to the organization that runs/provides the event. (superbowlbreakfast.com) The only other source there had only one line briefly mentioning that: "The 2024 Bart Starr Award will be presented during the 36th annual Super Bowl Breakfast on Feb. 10 in Las Vegas", and that source doesn't even say that it is related to Athletes in Action. To have a paragraph about the Super Bowl Breakfast, you need to find some newspaper type source (See: WP:RS and WP:RSP) that talks about Athletes in Action and that Super Bowl Breakfast is their event. Please also see: WP:IS "Although Wikipedia is not paper, it is also not a dumping ground for any and all information that readers consider important or useful." - meaning that not all events/actions that non-profits do are important enough to be included in their Wikipedia article. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 00:52, 18 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Great work trying to shorten the introduction paragraph to the ITER article, especially citing the relevant guidelines that suggest the four-paragraph standard. The problem is that this paragraph cites work by a journalist who is an ITER sceptic and who is committed to a rival fusion technology, so he is very active about keeping that critical information at the top of the page. I wrote on his talk page that we should transfer it to the Criticism section, but he just deleted my comment. I look forward to seeing how he reacts to your change...

Jeremymarseille ( talk) 05:52, 27 May 2021 (UTC) reply

I saw your posting on my Talk page a few months ago. I wanted to respond right away, but had not the time. My schedule has been hectic most of this year. Sorry I could not respond to your welcome request sooner. Good that your writing has been posted.

Today I looked at it, your "California housing shortage" article. It is a very important topic, and an interesting one. Many people are severely affected. Everyone on the coastal metropolitan areas are. I have been on both side of the supply and demand equation, personally and professionally.

I will try to read your article this month. In the meantime, one issue suggests itself to me. The 'Great Recession' quickly stopped new construction. Many construction companies made drastic cut-backs on skilled employees, or went completely out of business. Now that California needs a building boom, the housing supply factor is relatively anemic. It should be robust.

A dramatic increase in housing supply is clearly the long term solution. Ironically, short term fixes like rent control work to reduce future housing supply. Yet in the meantime rent control can alleviate some of the pain of the housing shortage, especially needed for low income renters. It's a difficult zero-sum calculus, at best. Studies have shown that rent control does not effectively lower rents over time for a region, but instead benefits certain tenants (who stay put in rentals in favored locations) and increases the rent for new tenants and those in adjacent locations that are not controlled. It also favors some more prosperous tenants, who would not qualify as low income.

It's difficult for government to intervene in the economy in the interests of a sense of political justice, to challenge the supply and demand reality, without serious unintended consequences. Rent control can alleviate today's housing pain, in exchange for prolonging the shortage. Yet sometimes the short-term realities are so abnormal that such intervention is warranted. Rent control is often a blunt instrument, but part of the political-economic tool kit.

Another major factor driving up the price of real estate in California is foreign investors. Obviously, through the influx of funds. But also, many buy homes as investments (for appreciation of their value) and then let them sit unoccupied. In not a few Los Angeles suburbs 10% of the homes are said to be idle due to absentee investors.

I salute your interest, and your contribution to Wikipedia. Elfelix ( talk) 22:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC) reply

Today I read some of your California housing shortage article, the first half of the text and sections of the rest. Generally it is clear, well-organized, and well-sourced. Thank you. Otherwise, at the this time I have nothing to add to the May 1st paragraphs above. Hopefully I can revisit it next week. One thing: you might want to add a "redirect" page entitled "Housing shortage in California". Elfelix ( talk) 22:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Elfelix Sorry it took me so long to respond to this.

You are right, CA does have a shortage of both companies doing construction, and skilled workers to do that work, resulting in high market rate prices for construction labor...AFAIK, both these factors are actually true around the nation.

You are right about the problems that arise when governments distort markets. In my opinion, a smarter way to help low-income renters is to use government money to subsidize their market rate rents. Rent-control forces landlords (rather than government) to subsidize rental payments for poor, middle, and rich tenants. Subsidizing food for everyone (rather than just the poor as we do in the US) is what got Venezuela into their current food-supply predicament. Having LOCAL governments pay these subsidies would be a HUGE incentive for them to fix the factors that drove rents so high in the first place.

On your other comment, blaming "absentee investors," primarily Chinese (in the news, not what you said), is just a "blame the outsiders" mentality rather than face reality. (Why is there so much crime in America? Well it must be the illegal aliens committing it all, if we just get rid of them we'll have no crime....yeah, right.) Would this be any different if they were all "local" investors? Also, I've seen no DATA in any of the articles I've read supporting this...only conjecture from interviews with individual real estate agents....anecdotes do not make data.

In a normal functioning free market, more demand just yields more supply. EVERY investment is a bet: if people are buying homes in CA because they think it will be a good investment, they're betting that CA won't solve this housing shortage anytime soon, and that CA's economy will remain strong/improve to keep the demand side up.

Thank you for the re-direct suggestion.....done!

Thanks for your comments and suggestions!!! ---- Avatar317 ( talk) 01:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Avatar317 reply

One more thought on investors buying homes and leaving them empty. *IF* they are doing this, one has to ask "Why are they forgoing the large amount of money they could be making by renting out those properties?" Here are a couple of my theories:

1) If they are buying new or newly renovated homes, maybe the depreciation of a slightly used (and damaged) home reduces the resale value so much that it is not worth the risk of a renter? and they intend to resell the property in a short time frame.

combined with 2) A rental agency (if the investor were to have an agency rent the property for them) is required by CA anti-discrimination law to rent to the first person(s) who can demonstrate financial sufficiency...they are not allowed to look at 20 potential renters and choose the one they think would be the least risk of damaging their property. A landlord can disallow pets in the rental contract, but not children, and children often damage homes more than pets....These factors (essentially risk of degradation of investment) may be why homes sit vacant rather than rented. ---- Avatar317 ( talk) 04:48, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Avatar317 reply

The "housing shortage" article literally begins with "since about 1970". Qwertyuiop1234567898 ( talk) 08:43, 22 February 2020 (UTC) reply

I'd like to ask you, then, what do those articles convey and can we include it in the article? Demand clearly isn't just from national demand. There is not one mention of immigration in the article. I feel this article is a well-intentioned piece which suffers from one-sided perspectives sometimes. If it's more balanced, it will be a great article. Your efforts have nonetheless made a very effective article. Qwertyuiop1234567898 ( talk) 08:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC) reply

I stumbled upon California housing shortage, and wow, thank you for putting that together! I've requested a peer review in hopes of getting a Good Article (or even Featured Article) stamp. Is there anything I can do to help out? I'm pretty good with maps, graphs and research. grendel| khan 01:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Grendelkhan Hello, and thanks for the good words about the CA housing shortage article! I'd love any suggestions you have about any ways to improve the article, (or just do them yourself, of course) and I'm writing a reply to your talk page comments now.

Clearly, you have infinitely more familiarity with charts/graphs/data on Wikipedia than I (I have none, so far); thank you for contributing, and for nominating it for GA review!!!! ---- Avatar317 ( talk) 04:59, 13 June 2018 (UTC)Avatar317 reply

Hello,

Per-capita means per person, not per property. I removed "per capita" in my edits. Thank you for pointing out this discrepancy. I have added these relevant facts to the article. I think they help understand that a 0.42% rate does not necessarily imply the locale is getting a giant subsidy. I think that's important for readers of the article to understand--recent money has resulted in SOME people paying much more per property, but longtime residents don't necessarily pay less than the rest of the state does (median property tax in CA is under 3,000 dollars per source 59). Those longtime residents have paid decades of other high taxes that compensated for prop 13 too, and we need an accounting of how much that is (and I don't think this exists).

69Avatar69 ( talk) 23:53, 24 May 2019 (UTC) reply

It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on a biased choice of users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence Talk:Rent regulation. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Thank you.

• This is the only invitation you issued to join a discussion. It's generally fine to advertise discussions on WikiProject talk pages, or to various noticeboards, or sometimes the talk pages of other articles. You're on shaky ground when you're inviting hand-picked editors. That can be OK when you notify every single editor in a class, such as every editor who touched an article in the last year. But one and only one editor? The one who wrote "If you haven't studied economics, don't edit this page" in direct violation of the WP:OWNBEHAVIOR policy? That does not look good.

  Please do not canvass in this way again. Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:58, 23 February 2019 (UTC) reply

I invited the one editor who I've encountered that stated that they had a background in economics, because I figured that an expert in the field could help improve this article. That person had stated: "As someone studying economics at the graduate level, ..."

This is the way encylopedias were written before Wikipedia, by experts in the field of the subject they wrote about, and that resulted in the articles all being of MUCH higher quality than the Rent regulation article is now. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 06:52, 23 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Hi Avatar317, I wanted to thank you for all the work you put into the Alex Berenson article and the new article you created about his book, Tell Your Children: The Truth About Marijuana, Mental Illness and Violence. I heard his perspective on a podcast called The Argument from the New York Times in which 3 NYT opinion writers (one an anti-Trump conservative, one a left-leaning moderate, and the last quite to the left of the other two) debate controversial issues in a rational and factual manner, often times finding common ground on some points and agreeing to disagree on others. It's refreshing to hear such a reasonable debate about real policy and circumstance, but I digress. One of them did an interview with Alex Berenson about cannabis, and I found his arguments and propositions so filled with fallacies and factually incorrect information that I simply had to check how he and his book were characterized in his Wikipedia article, only to find it just briefly mentioned without any mention of the substantial number of criticisms laid against him and his book.

I wanted to make it clear to any readers that his position is not backed by science, and I really appreciate all the effort you put into reworking that article and creating a new article for the book to ensure that all readers of Wikipedia who may stumble upon his page understand that he is not an expert, nor does he defer to the actual experts, and, at least from my perspective, is trying to push an agenda instead of the actual reality of the consequences of cannabis use. Thanks again. Matt18224 ( talk) 02:35, 9 May 2019 (UTC) reply

@ Matt18224:Thank you for the edit you did to the Alex Berenson article in which you added the sentence: In particular, they describe his book as highly problematic because Berenson infers causation from correlation, .... I don't recall how I came across that article, but that sentence caught my attention, and got me interested to read more. (I think a neat feature of Wikipedia is how info in articles can bootstrap better articles in this manner; I hadn't heard anything about his book until I read that Wikipedia article; without your contribution I likely wouldn't have heard about this at all.)

I do think that we will be better off as a society when more people in the general public understand science and scientific methods, and respectful and rational ways of having discussions/arguments; especially considering that in a democracy, everyone is allowed to vote and is therefore expected (or asked) to give their input on public policies, some of which may be very scientific in nature (climate change and vaccinations).

I wonder whether Berenson started his inquiry into cannabis without a pro/con legalization belief, and simply made the mistake(s) of misunderstanding science, but that once he released the book, and heard the criticism, that he now cares more about "Being Right than Doing The Right Thing", (and selling books) and doesn't want to admit his mistake: that many months of his work and his conclusion therefrom are simply wrong. The book Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) was an interesting read on this subject (though I don't agree with every one of their analyses of their case studies). Another way of phrasing this is that people can behave (to varying degrees) like "insecure narcissists", whose egos are more threatened by admitting that they are wrong than the threat of public ridicule from supporting unreasonable/ridiculous/crazy beliefs. It would be interesting/telling to see what his beliefs on cannabis legalization were prior to his beginning the "quest" that lead to him writing this book, that would indicate whether he started with an agenda, or whether my theory above is the more likely case.

Lastly, I don't know if you've seen this site, but I was thinking of asking the author (Tyler Vigen) whether he would open-source one of his graphs for either/both the Correlation does not imply causation and Spurious relationship article(s). See his site here: ^[1] Title of the first graph: "US spending on science, space, and technology correlates with Suicides by hanging, strangulation and suffocation" Correlation: 99.79% (r=0.99789126) --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 20:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC) reply

@ Avatar317: Dear god, I had no clue science spending caused suicides! We need to STOP SCIENCE FUNDING NOW!!! (I probably shouldn't give anyone any ideas...) I always try to assume good faith, which, as I'm sure you know, is a common principle here on Wikipedia, and the impression I got from the interview (found here about 2 minutes in) was that Alex Berenson's wife, who is a forensic psychiatrist, anecdotally told him that she saw high numbers of criminals who also happened to use cannabis, which led him down the road of hearing anecdotes of individuals who had bad experiences with cannabis and cherry-picking the limited data and anecdotes that reinforced his belief based on his wife's assertion. I'll have to listen to the interview again to be sure, but I think he said he paid little attention to cannabis prior to his wife telling him her experience. Likely thanks to anchoring, I suspect that was his jumping-off point where he decided that if his wife, an admitted expert in psychiatry, decided cannabis was causing criminal behavior, that confirmation bias kicked in and sent him spiraling down the rabbit hole of "cannabis must be illegal for a good reason."

I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist (actually pretty far from it, computer scientist), but I took several psychology classes in college that didn't contribute toward my major in any way because I always thought the biases and fallacies to which we almost universally fall victim are so interesting, and I felt that understanding how people interpret information would both help me realize when I'm engaging in those behaviors myself and also make me a more effective programmer. I mentioned anchoring and confirmation bias, but what's almost certainly happening with him now is the backfire effect, which is related to, but distinct from, confirmation bias. According to him, his initial view on cannabis was something of a blank slate until his wife, both a trusted source and an expert in his mind, gave him the idea that cannabis and crime are associated, so he probably started looking for information that confirmed that assertion since it was his "anchor." Despite being presented with momentous amounts of scientific evidence contradicting his claims, he felt even more confident in his assertions instead of less, an example of the backfire effect. His argument that there weren't enough psychiatrists who signed the letter to validate any of its claims is a great example of the no true Scotsman fallacy. I suspect even if all the signatories were psychiatrists (who are typically clinicians, not researchers, which also means selection bias comes into play since patients of psychiatrists are usually people with pre-existing mental health issues), he would find some reason why all those psychiatrist signatories aren't actually experts.

One thing you pondered was whether he's "in too deep" to admit he was wrong. You essentially described irrational escalation, also known as the "sunk cost fallacy" where, despite an outpouring of criticism of his claims, he's put so much time and money into pushing those claims that he continues doing it because he's gone "all in" on promoting prohibition. He continues to promote the idea that cannabis causes violence, despite science and experts disagreeing with him. I can't say what's in his heart, but I suspect he truly believes what he's pushing and that he simply doesn't realize all the cognitive biases he's experiencing. He thinks the overwhelming majority of "real experts" agree with him, but, according to his words and actions, they're only "real experts" if they agree with him.

With regards to that graph, the author mentions the data source, and since it's from the US Government, the data should be publicly accessible in one way or another. I have some experience with graph design, and I'll definitely look into acquiring that data and creating a public domain version showing that surprisingly high degree of correlation between the two entirely unrelated phenomena. I'm surprised the Correlation does not imply causation article doesn't have a graphic demonstrating the phenomenon, since such a graph would make it very easy for individuals who are just skimming or who are better at understanding concepts through visualizations instead of reading giant blocks of complex, jargony text like the ones present in the article to grasp the gist of what the article is trying to say. I'll see what I can do. Matt18224 ( talk) 23:36, 9 May 2019 (UTC) reply

Hey Avatar317, thanks for fixing the Alex Berenson article after it had been maliciously altered. I got my email digest showing the anonymous removal of information and immediately went to revert it, only to pleasantly discover that you had already done so. I geolocated the IP address, and it's suspiciously in the exact same area of New York where Alex Berenson lives. The editor also added information about Berenson's pet, with quite specific, unsourced details and poor following of the Manual of Style. While I have no definitive proof, the anonymous editor's seemingly visceral reaction to the content in the article debunking Berenson's claims, as well as Berenson himself being publicly annoyed by any criticism of his works, leads me to suspect that Berenson himself altered the article. He removed every bit of properly-sourced, reliable information in the article that was critical of his book, while leaving information simply stating what the book is and what he claims in it.

It may be necessary to keep a close eye on this situation, including potentially requesting an IP ban from an admin, if he continues to remove unfavorable, factual information, since this would be a blatant violation of WP:AUTO. I know you've put a lot of work into improving the article (as well as the topic overall), and I wanted you to know I'll staunchly back you up if it ultimately comes to a conflict. I strongly suspect other editors will also support the inclusion of that information in the article, since its inclusion objectively improves the quality and breadth of the article and is not "slanderous" or "partisan" as the anonymous editor claimed. Matt18224 ( talk) 18:25, 5 June 2019 (UTC) reply

@ Matt18224: Thank you for also keeping an eye on this; I do think it may be an article which might see other edits like that one. I looked at Wikipedia's policies on page protection, ( WP:Protection_policy) and it says that a page cannot be prophylactically protected; but after repeated vandalism, protection can be asked for:

Semi-protection prevents edits from unregistered users (IP addresses), as well as edits from any account that is not autoconfirmed (is at least four days old and has made at least ten edits to Wikipedia) or confirmed. This level of protection is useful when there is a significant amount of disruption or vandalism from new or unregistered users, or to prevent sock puppets of blocked or banned users from editing, especially when it occurs on biographies of living persons who have had a recent high level of media interest. An alternative to semi-protection is pending changes, which is sometimes favored when an article is being vandalized regularly, but otherwise receives a low amount of editing.

So WP:Pending_changes might be the best thing to ask for if this starts recurring, since these two articles don't seem to have had that many edits.

I also did the IP-geolocate to see the same info as you, though I didn't know what area of NY he lives in, but I do also suspect him of being that editor, as you said, based on the edit summaries and other info added. I agree with you about the ridiculousness of (and similarity to his current statements) the claim of "...purely slanderous and partisan non-facts." All the sources used to reference those statements are listed as "Reliable sources" here: WP:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources, and I specifically include quotes so that editors and readers can have reasonable confidence that the article is appropriately paraphrasing the reference.

Lastly, thank you for the good psychological overview in our last discussion of some of what you suspect is going on here, and thanks again for also keeping an eye on these articles!!

- Frood ( talk!) 22:27, 4 September 2019 (UTC) reply

Doug Weller talk 13:08, 15 November 2019 (UTC) reply

	The Original Barnstar
	Just to show my appreciation for your edits. Doug Weller talk 09:09, 6 February 2020 (UTC) reply

qedk ( t 桜 c) 07:51, 11 February 2020 (UTC) reply

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Calvary_Chapel_Fort_Lauderdale&oldid=prev&diff=964690561 and others, no, it's not advertising, but I’ll leave it as it’s not vital to an encyclopedic understanding of the topic. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 00:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Walter Görlitz: From my experience, every medium to large church also has an attached school, and other programs like daycare, marriage counselling, feed-the-homeless, community relations, etc. ....that don't belong in a Wikipedia article (aren't IMPORTANT enough to be mentioned) unless those programs have been mentioned by Independent Sources like newspapers. If someone wants to know about a church's programs, they can visit that church's website. If the church has a program that others than the organization itsself thinks are important, Independent Sources will cover that program/school/mission.--- Avatar317 ^(talk) 21:57, 29 June 2020 (UTC) reply

You did not even read what you removed. You only left the school. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 22:33, 29 June 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Walter Görlitz: So you have the arrogance to CLAIM you KNOW what others did and did not do? I read everything I remove carefully. The school has its own wikipedia article, all the things I removed were sourced by websites created/owned/run by the church, and had no linked wikipedia articles. (I have not checked to see whether the school's article is notable enough to exist or should be put up for AfD...maybe I should check that now.)--- Avatar317 ^(talk) 22:45, 29 June 2020 (UTC) reply

I make no such claims. I simply responded to your statement that "every medium to large church also has an attached school", yet that's what you removed. I saw that you removed the self-sourced content but did not remove the only thing without a source. I don't care what you do and don't read, I care about sources. Don't ping me again. I have no interest in discussing this further with you. WP:SPS Walter Görlitz ( talk) 22:51, 29 June 2020 (UTC) reply

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For vigilant reversal of whitewashing on pages about anti-vaccination groups. Discredited theories are not "innovative research" and those groups are not "vaccine safety advocates". Thank you! Robincantin ( talk) 13:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC) reply

Hello,

I'm curious about why you say that the film itself and its website aren't reliable sources for supporting statements about what the film and its authors claim – surely they're as reliable as is possible? They are obviously not independent, but I feel it's still relevant to cite them per WP:V.

—  Lauritz Thomsen ( talk) 23:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC) reply

[Copied this to the talk page for the article, because that is a better venue for this discussion which will allow other editors to give input] Re-publishing on Wikipedia the claims of the film itself and the film's website amounts to re-publishing their propaganda (in my opinion). I feel that it is the same as publishing an organization's mission statement or motto, and I would support this essay WP:MISSION being a policy. In my opinion, an organization/movie/person should not be allowed to frame the discussion about itself/themselves. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 02:11, 4 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Hi

Can I ask why you reverted my edit on. ^[1] I removed the word 'false' as the citations listed are not recognized medical sources. In fact the people writing those articles are not even doctors, but journalists. Thus they form no more than a journalistic opinion. Markbanin ( talk) 02:06, 4 October 2020 (UTC) reply

First source at the end of the sentence where you removed the word "false" is this article [1] in the magazine Science (journal) (Science, also widely referred to as Science Magazine,[2] is the peer-reviewed academic journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science[3][4] (AAAS) and one of the world's top academic journals.) author: Martin Enserink [2] Martin Enserink is Science’s International news editor. Based in Amsterdam, he coordinates and edits news from Asia, Africa, and Latin America. He also writes stories, primarily about infectious diseases, global health, and research policy. Martin received a master’s degree in biology from the University of Groningen and worked for various publications in the Netherlands before joining Science in 1999. He was a reporter at the magazine’s headquarters in Washington, D.C., for 5 years and became the Paris correspondent in 2004. Between 2011 and 2018, he was Science’s European news editor. Fascinated by emerging diseases, he covered outbreaks on four continents, including the 2001 anthrax letters in the United States, the global outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in 2003, and the 2009 H1N1 influenza pandemic. He also wrote about basic research, epidemiology, ecology, and drug and vaccine development for diseases like malaria, tuberculosis, and influenza. In addition, he has written extensively about research funding, scientific publishing, research ethics, and scientific misconduct. Martin won the Communications Award of the American Society for Microbiology in 2004, 2008, and 2012, each time with a different Science colleague, for stories on SARS, malaria, and a suspected link between a virus and chronic fatigue syndrome. His story on golden rice was included in Best American Science Writing 2009. He was a mentor to four African science journalists in a program run by the World Federation of Science Journalists and wrote an online course, Covering Ebola, with Helen Branswell. In November 2019, Martin's story about the eradication of yaws, a disfiguring bacterial disease, won the Communications Award from the American Society of Tropical Medicine & Hygiene. - Seems like a VERY Reliable Source WP:RS written by a very qualified journalist to me, and that's just the first of FIVE sources for that statement. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 04:57, 4 October 2020 (UTC) reply

When adding links to material on external sites, as you did to Marcus Lamb, please ensure that the external site is not violating the creator's copyright. Linking to websites that display copyrighted works is acceptable as long as the website's operator has created or licensed the work. Knowingly directing others to a site that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement. This is particularly relevant when linking to sites such as YouTube or Sci-Hub, where due care should be taken to avoid linking to material that violates its creator's copyright. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

If you believe the linked site is not violating copyright with respect to the material, then you should do one of the following:

• If the linked site is the copyright holder, leave a message explaining the details on the article Talk page;
• If a note on the linked site credibly claims permission to host the material, or a note on the copyright holder's site grants such permission, leave a note on the article Talk page with a link to where we can find that note;
• If you are the copyright holder or the external site administrator, adjust the linked site to indicate permission as above and leave a note on the article Talk page;

If the material is available on a different site that satisfies one of the above conditions, link to that site instead. Elizium23 ( talk) 23:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Elizium23: You should pay more attention to who ADDED a source before accusing me of adding copyrighted material. I merely reverted an edit [3] which removed the material because it was claimed to use bad language, because Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. That material had been in the article for some time, and was NOT added by me.--- Avatar317 ^(talk) 22:56, 12 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Avatar317, you added it in this edit Elizium23 ( talk) 00:43, 13 October 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Elizium23: NO, I RESTORED deleted content (reason for deletion being offensive language) without carefully checking whether the sources for the material were acceptable. Like I said above, this content had been in the article for some time, and was not originally added by me.--- Avatar317 ^(talk) 00:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Avatar317, added or restored, the onus is the same for you to verify you are not violating copyright. Elizium23 ( talk) 00:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC) reply

I saw there’s been a lot of back and forth on the Calif. Prop 15 article especially in the lead section. In an effort to avoid stepping on any toes, I'd like to get your input on some minor adjustments. Your most recent change was an improvement to illustrate the "split roll" piece so I agree with you there and I think there could be some additional fine tuning to A) avoid the repetitive language, and B) more clearly define that the underlying change comes from a reassessment of property values:

Current version:

The 2020 California Proposition 15 provides $6.5 billion to $11.5 billion in new funding for public schools, community colleges, and local government services by creating a "split roll" property tax system that increases taxes on large commercial properties by taxing them at market value, without changing property taxes for residential properties.

Suggested changes:

The 2020 California Proposition 15 provides $6.5 billion to $11.5 billion in new funding for public schools, community colleges, and local government services by creating a "split roll" system that increases tax revenue from large commercial properties by assessing them at market value, without changing property taxes for small business owners or residential properties.

Alternatively, we could use "by assessing them at market value instead of their original purchase price" which even more clearly illustrates the change. But the above version also keeps it simple and to the point. Do you have any objections to this modification? Thank you! PureFuLT ( talk) 18:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC) reply

@ PureFuLT: How about this:

Your version with a minor change:

The 2020 California Proposition 15 provides $6.5 billion to $11.5 billion in new funding for public schools, community colleges, and local government services by creating a "split roll" system that increases tax revenue from es on large commercial properties by assessing them at market value, without changing property taxes for small business owners or residential properties.

My main issue is this: the sources and the ballot wording all say that commercial property taxes will INCREASE: ("A YES vote on this measure means: Property taxes ... would go up"), and in my opinion to obscure this fact as "increases tax revenue" is misleading (it is possible to raise tax revenue withOUT raising the total "fees" paid: by re-allocation of who gets what...for example look at "fees/taxes" on water and electric bills). The simplest, clearest, and most honest way to state this is that taxes will go up (increase).

I'm ok with more details, I just want the "taxes will increase" in the first sentence, as that is necessary to balance the earlier phrase: "provides $6.5 billion to $11.5 billion in new funding"

One could argue that by listing the funding first and tax increase second, is biased for the initiative, and that to mention a tax increase first and revenue second would be biased against the initiative, but it needs to be done one way, and I'm fine with the spending phrase first and tax increase second.

Thanks for discussing this, and thank your your other edits on this article! --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 21:13, 22 October 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Avatar317: This seems fair to me. It's a bit tricky to make sure it all remains easy to understand, concise, and as neutral as possible, so I appreciate your help with this. Will go ahead and make that change, thanks! PureFuLT ( talk) 23:25, 22 October 2020 (UTC) reply

The reverted edit you did was very wrong. Yes it's unsourced, but I'm just letting you know: You have removed information that is obvious to many demographics. Yes I understand it's in all of our natural instincts to remove unsourced info, but in the future when this keeps popping up, you know why. Dana60Cummins ( talk) 15:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC) reply

	The Original Barnstar
	Thank you for your productivity, patience, diligence, and helpful teaching. Hephestus-1964 ( talk) 04:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC) reply

It's not about finding sources that say what I want them to say, it's finding an accurate way to summarise the plethora of sources that are out there on the subject without ignoring them. The bottom line is that there are lots of good sources out there showing one way or another that the gap has either stalled or is/could be outright declining in recent years, from here ^[1] to here ^[2] to here ^[3] to here ^[4] to here ^[5] to here ^[6] if you don't want to use the Forbes articles, which I totally understand. But the bottom line is that the sources don't reflect a consensus that COVID-19 is the sole cause of the widening or stagnating gap, and the ones that do link it to COVID don't just link it to daycare centers and schools being closed in particular, hence the wording needs to be more encompassing. I prefer my wording but if you really want to include COVID then perhaps we could combine the two and say something like "Since 2018 however, there are signs that it could be widening again, with the COVID-19 pandemic largely attributed to the reversal." Or something. What do you think? Davefelmer ( talk) 23:55, 21 January 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Davefelmer: 1) It's not "what sources I want to use", Reliable Sources are determined by consensus: See: WP:FORBESCON and you can see the listing for Forbes contributors. 2) Any statement added to Wikipedia must be supported by the sources YOU INCLUDE as sources, not some grouping of other sources you've read. 3) The first three sources you list are acceptable (CNBC, NPR, and CNET), but the others are not news organizations reporting on an issue, and wouldn't be considered Reliable Sources: beckershospitalreview.com talks ONLY about physician salaries, this is NOT generalizable to everyone; the kent source is a comment article, and the diversityq is an advocacy organization.

I'll add one sentence to the article using the CNBC and CNET sources, and leave the COVID statement intact, now also supported by the CNBC source. We can't OVER-generalize from sources which only talk about small segments of the labor market to everyone. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 06:11, 22 January 2021 (UTC) reply

I've just had a look at your added sentence and while I appreciate that you've incorporated some of the sources I previously introduced, your wording of 'since 2018, the gender pay gap has not decreased' is not NPOV and not reflective of the source describing it. The source uses the language "no progress has been made" in its title and then is critical of the stagnation multiple times throughout its body, so I'm gonna rephrase it to reflect that.

The source also discusses other reasons for why gender wage gap growth has fallen off through the pandemic, for reasons other than the one explicitly and specifically focused on within the page text, including that women have been disproportionately impacted by furloughs and because they hold jobs in fields disproportionately shrunk by the nature of the pandemic. Yes we shouldnt over generalise at times or from some of the sources I provided before that focused on particular fields but from the ones linked now, they discuss multiple angles for the gap stagnation/rise and that should be reflected rather one of the reasons in one of the sources focused on in an extremely specific way. Davefelmer ( talk) 20:12, 26 January 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Davefelmer: Your reasons for this change should be discussed on the Talk page FOR THIS ARTICLE, not on my Talk page; while your reasons are valid, your edit should be one which ADDS to the explanation as to why this is happening, rather than giving the reader LESS information and no idea of why the gap might be increasing. Also "stagnated" does not accurately describe what happens as well as "not decreased". --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 22:15, 26 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Sorry, I didn't realise you had already transferred our initial conversation onto the article talkpage! But I've seen it now, migrated the rest of our conversation over and replied there! Cheers, Davefelmer ( talk) 00:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Birth control darts are a thing. [4] -- Countryboy603 ( talk) 16:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Countryboy603: Sure, for deer. How is it that you did not notice that the Birth control article is about contraceptives for HUMANS, not veterinary medicine? --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 21:32, 4 February 2021 (UTC) reply

Thank you for reminding that Forbes contributors on expert sources are allowed in narrowed contexts. However please do not use capital letters in the edit summary, in a way that can be considered shouting and incivil. I don't take offence, however you may encounter editors that do, so remember the civility policy the next time an edit upsets. Gerald WL 03:21, 6 February 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Gerald Waldo Luis: It is not meant as shouting, it is meant to emphasize certain points in a text field that does not allow bolding. SHOUTING WOULD BE AN ENTIRE SENTENCE OF ALL CAPS!!!! :-) --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 05:41, 6 February 2021 (UTC) reply

	The Original Barnstar
	Thanks for your patience, wit, and helpful teaching, it's much appreciated! I look forward to working on the issues and recommendations mentioned. Best, Hephestus-1964 ( talk) 11:49, 3 March 2021 (UTC) reply

I don't understand your stance on think tank sources from your edits in Minimum wage in the United States. You link to WP:RS, but reading over that it seems to say the exact opposite of your stance. It has no stance on think-tanks in general, but it does have a stance on "biased or opinionated sources" (which would seem to include think-tanks), and states that "Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject". Seeing that, I have no idea what your justification is for deleting all think tank sources. The only doctrinal page I could find even mentioning think tanks was Wikipedia:Articles with a single source which merely prohibits taking the sources from a think-tank as a way of effectively copying a think-tank.

Considering the article quotes several individual people directly (who are also by no means reliable sources) to present the range of opinion on the topic, singling out think tanks seems like an unjustifiable position.

I'll drop this if it's a doctrinal thing for Wikipedia for some reason, but otherwise I will attempt to/call for reverting all of your deletions following this line, or ask that you revert those deletions yourself. Considering I don't have a Wikipedia account (and am not planning on getting one), I'm not signing this, idk if that's rude, but I'm not trying to be. I'll check back to this page within a week. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.10.3 ( talk) 04:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC) reply

Please spend more time familiarizing yourself with Reliable Sources. It is one thing when a think-tank is ATTRIBUTED and used as a source for an OPINION, it is quite another when it is being used to support "facts." Biased sources like think-tanks are NOT academic sources. Their goal is to advocate for their policy positions, and they do this by generating and publishing "research" which supports their positions. They don't objectively report on a situation; they publish only information/research which supports their position(s); using such sources DIRECTLY risks UNDUEly WP:UNDUE representing their positions in OPINION situations, rather than taking their position in balance with others as presented by Independent Sources WP:IS. And they are practically never valid for statements of fact about causes they advocate for. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 23:11, 12 March 2021 (UTC) reply

Fair enough, thought that simply making it clear it was from a biased source could possibly enough, but I forgot the doctrinal distinction between opinion and fact on Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.10.3 ( talk) 02:41, 15 March 2021 (UTC) reply

Hi Avatar317; regarding your ES here; yes, videos are regarded as "texts" in academic contexts (see Content_analysis#Kinds_of_text). I was trying to avoid using the term "video" to refer to both pieces together since we've defined one as a "video" and the other as a "film". I understand your point though; maybe "productions" would be a better way to collectively refer to them. I'm not too fussed though. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 06:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC) reply

I just think that most readers (laypeople) might be confused by an academic term, and tried to choose the word (that I think) is most easily understandable to most people given the context. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 19:35, 15 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Thanks for replying. Of course articles should be as clear as possible, so that's fine and I've no problems leaving it alone. This c/e is quite complex so I'll be active there for a couple more days; feel free to chime in. :) Cheers, Baffle☿gab 22:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Good catch on Minimum Wage in the United States. However, I am still skeptical as to whether it is necessary to include the information in the lead because very few polls show support for a $15.00 minimum wage being that low. I am not familiar with this area of Wikipedia all that much, but I intuitively think it would be best to include more polls in the lead. Scorpions13256 ( talk) 01:58, 29 April 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Scorpions13256: I think that if we had multiple polls in the article then we could summarize them with a single statement in the lead; this article only has these two recent ones in the lead, and some older ones in the "Polls" section, complicated by the fact that from all the polls I've seen, there is greater support for increasing the min wage slightly (to $10 for example - supported also by many economists) and reduced support for larger raises ($15 - not generally supported by economists), and the level of support also varies rather significantly between different political leanings and demographic groups. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 20:00, 29 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Hello,

This is regarding the changes that I made in the article Lancet MMR autism fraud calling the published paper fraudulent, that was reverted by you. The paper was fraudulent as stated in the MMR vaccine article. The word fraudulent is defined as "obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception." As stated in the article , the lancet editor-in-chief said that the journal had been deceived into publishing the paper and wakefield's conflict of interest and manipulation was undisclosed/unknown.

So the paper was fraudulently published. I did not revert back to my edit because I didn't want to engage in an edit war, and cause any inconvenience. So I thought It would be appropriate to talk to you directly.

So please considered restoring my version.

Thank you. 2409:4042:2E13:BF34:788A:1077:B6FB:D77F ( talk) 13:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC) reply

I restored your version; thanks for discussing this and pointing that out.--- Avatar317 ^(talk) 22:13, 4 August 2021 (UTC) reply

	The Editor's Barnstar
	Appreciate all your solid work around here! Marquardtika ( talk) 19:54, 21 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Please take care when describing your actions in edit summaries or within a discussion on Wikipedia that you do not suggest a limit to an editor's editing privileges. In the Troy Newman article, you incorrectly reverted my edit, then told me "You could do minor grammar edits separately, those are acceptable." Wikipedia determines what edits "are acceptable." You do not. As a professional editor for more than 35 years with hundreds of published works, and as a Wikipedia editor for more than 11 years, I am quite familiar with what constitutes an "acceptable" edit. I don't like to mention my professional experience, but since you have sought to restrict the "acceptable" areas in which I may edit, I feel it is important for you to understand that this isn't my first rodeo. To answer a question you asked of me, yes, I did read the article. I am happy to return the language of Newman's removal from Australia and agree with you that it is an appropriate part of the intro. I choose to believe that you mean well in your actions. However, your language is unkind, unprofessional, provocative and does not abide by Wikipedia's principle to "always assume good faith" ( WP:FAITH). Your language also inhibits the collaborative spirit which should be observed in Wikipedia. I am eager to work together with you to bring this bloated article up to the highest possible standard, but I must insist on professionalism, good faith and a collaborative atmosphere in keeping with the standards established by Wikipedia. God bless and happy editing. MarydaleEd ( talk) 03:46, 23 September 2021 (UTC) reply

1) Per WP:BRD, when your first change to a stable article was reverted, YOU should have initiated a Talk page discussion, which you did not. You redid your identical edit (a removal); you later admitted (above as well) that the part I mentioned in my second reversion about the Australia visit IS in fact sourced in the article. Meaning that about half of your first removal and RE-removal was not appropriate.

2) I apologize for quickly choosing the word "acceptable" rather than "non-controversial". My use of that word was in response to you stating that my reversion of your initial edit also reverted a one word British-->American English change, so I was recommending that if you did grammar changes (minor edits that no one would contest) SEPARATELY from content edits, than only the content edit would be reverted. (You should know by now that no one is the King/Queen of Wikipedia, so I can't tell you (or anyone) where you can/cannot edit, only the community has that power.)

The important part is that the article is now slightly improved thanks to (in my opinion) both your and my changes. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 19:48, 26 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Nil Einne ( talk) 06:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Hello! In regards to the edit at Factitious disorder by proxy, my main concern is that the article text says that the neurologist stated that the parents encouraged her to be sick. In the actual article, it's a bit more nuanced than that - he said that he wanted them to not encourage her to be sick, but to act like a normal teenager. As reported in various news sources, other doctors did believe her to have mitochondrial disease, and the actual person involved in the case seems to still believe so as well. I think it is controversial to say with certainty that this is a case of factitious disorder by proxy, especially given the attitude of the person concerned in regards to the matter. Is there a way you can think of to rephrase the section so that it is more accurate to what the neurologist in the source article actually said, and perhaps make it more clear that it is merely suspected rather than confirmed in this case? Thank you, Feather Jonah III ( talk) 12:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Feather Jonah III: See my recent change to the article. I found three more sources which updated it with the results of the trial. I also restated the neurologist's statement to what the source said. Thanks for bringing this up, it got me to look more at this than I otherwise would have. Thanks! --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 23:24, 4 October 2021 (UTC) reply

About the Columbia International University de-edit, are you serious? [5] They DO have an athletics program, and those are the current sports the school sponsors. What else do you want? jlog3000 ( talk) 22:14, 23 December 2021 (UTC) reply

You have apparently never heard of one of Wikipedia's core principles WP:V?--- Avatar317 ^(talk) 22:19, 23 December 2021 (UTC) reply

Core principles? I was just posting something that's true or a fact, but also using my own way to express words in regards. And I mean, what I posted wasn't even fake nor false. Which I don't know why it had to be removed. jlog3000 ( talk) 22:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC) reply

First my previous post being removed, now this?: [6] How the hell is that against "core principles", and how do you expect me to verify? I swear that there are people that are against athletics histories of current and former institutions for purposes of education and understanding. Again I was expressing as part of my own words, because I genuine believed that there is no need for a reliable source; unless that is proven from a website that explain otherwise. Like this sample: [7] Which I had to summarize it to avoid a 'copyright violation issue' cuz most of its history does come from a website, like this: http://www.crossroadsleague.com/f/History.php Any other ideas?. jlog3000 ( talk) 05:45, 18 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Your: "I genuine believed that there is no need for a reliable source;" is simply WRONG and against Wikipedia's Verifiability principle WP:V. Now, per WP:SPS it would be acceptable to source things like their athletic programs to the website of the college itself, as long as it isn't overly detailed or promotional (saying how great their teams are - that would require Independent Sources WP:IS like newspapers.) To say what sports they participate in/field teams for and what Division they play in would be fine, sourced to the college's own website. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 23:57, 18 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Then what else did I do wrong in such terms? Like in the case of Columbia International's, I only listed the sports the school has actively sponsored (and they are still currently), which are true based on that school's athletic website. But then, I tried to list the sports a former institution sponsored before that school either dropped its athletic program and/or closed the school altogether, like in the case of Patten's, before that got removed oppressively. Any ideas? jlog3000 ( talk) 00:05, 19 March 2022 (UTC) reply

You need to use the Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page). and when the argument of Berkeley's zoning code being a model for other single-family zoning codes is weakly or never made in the sources in this article. There is also the section of the lede which states that single-family zoning "both increases the cost of housing units and decreases the supply." Though I do not doubt that this is often true, I also find it inappropriate that this statement is offered without qualification in the lede, especially when the source does not provide much direct information on whether single-family zoning increases costs or decreases supply outside of one example in Washington DC. In fact, that the source for this statement is much more careful about its language supports the idea that this article's lede should similarly refrain from making such unsupported and unqualified statements. ^[1]

...zoning rules like building height caps and minimum lot sizes often limit the financial feasibility of developing new housing.

— Jenny Schuetz at Brookings

In light of this, I believe my version is better supported by the sources in the lede, and I will restore it.

As a form of exclusionary zoning, ^{[2] [3] [4] [5]} it can have the effect of increasing the cost of housing units and decreasing their supply; ^[1] single-family zoning can also be used as a way to keep members of minority groups out of white neighborhoods. ^{[6] [2] [4]} In many United States cities, 75% of land zoned for residential uses is zoned single-family. ^[7]

I look forward to discussing questions or issues about this page or my edits in the future. LawClement ( talk) 20:03, 3 February 2023 (UTC) le reply

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I haven't been editing on Wikipedia regularly since before the @-function, so I'm not sure of the ettiquette around it, so I'll add this to your talk page as I added it to the SFZ talkpage.

There are a few points regarding NPOV that I sought to remedy with an I made yesterday in the lede (without being signed in), which was later reverted by @ Avatar317 with the memo "Restored sourced statements".

One is that the lede should specify the time periods and locations that are being discussed in regard to single-family zoning. "Recently" will not have the same meaning in ten years, and "the nation" will not have the same meaning for reader. In my edit I added a {{when}} tag to the "Recently" portion and changed "the nation" to "the United States" in order to support a NPOV. Reverting this part of my edit has nothing to do with restoring sourced statements.

The issue that seems more contentious is the part of the lede which states that single-family zoning "is a form of exclusionary zoning" and "was created as a way to keep minorities out of white neighborhoods". These unqualified statements are supported by sources name the 1916 zoning code of Berkeley, California as the first example of single-family zoning in the United States. Because of placement of these statements in the lede, whose purpose is to introduce and summarize the following content, I find that its use of Wikivoice to attribute intentions of the creators of Berkeley's zoning code to the creation of single-family zoning in general to be inappropriate, especially when other sources used in the article include other motivations for single-family zoning, ^[8] and when the argument of Berkeley's zoning code being a model for other single-family zoning codes is weakly or never made in the sources in this article. There is also the section of the lede which states that single-family zoning "both increases the cost of housing units and decreases the supply." Though I do not doubt that this is often true, I also find it inappropriate that this statement is offered without qualification in the lede, especially when the source does not provide much direct information on whether single-family zoning increases costs or decreases supply outside of one example in Washington DC. In fact, that the source for this statement is much more careful about its language supports the idea that this article's lede should similarly refrain from making such unsupported and unqualified statements. ^[1]

...zoning rules like building height caps and minimum lot sizes often limit the financial feasibility of developing new housing.

— Jenny Schuetz at Brookings

In light of this, I believe my version is better supported by the sources in the lede, and I will restore it.

As a form of exclusionary zoning, ^{[2] [3] [4] [5]} it can have the effect of increasing the cost of housing units and decreasing their supply; ^[1] single-family zoning can also be used as a way to keep members of minority groups out of white neighborhoods. ^{[6] [2] [4]} In many United States cities, 75% of land zoned for residential uses is zoned single-family. ^[7]

I look forward to discussing questions or issues about this page or my edits in the future. LawClement ( talk) 20:12, 3 February 2023 (UTC) reply

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I asked for a third opinion. Δπ ( talk) 19:57, 10 February 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Δπ: Thanks for letting me know!. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 01:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC) reply

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I did read the section about the price gouging concern. If you read the section yourself, fully, you'll notice that we only have the opinion of one economist saying that inflation is not from price gouging and not consumer demand. Meanwhile, the other sources in that section state that price gouging is a factor affecting inflation.

Our job as wikipedians is to only assert what is stated by reliable sources. Sources make the claim that price gouging is, and isn't, a factor in inflation. The fact that there is an entire section in the article devoted to this topic means it probably should be mentioned in the lead. If you want to add some qualifier to the statement, like "it is debated" "unproven" "contested", etc then that would be fine. But to ignore price gouging entirely in the lead is a mistake. 71.11.5.2 ( talk) 14:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC) reply

I see what you're trying to do, and it is appreciated. Usually, on Wikipedia, any criticism of something like greedflation would be wiped, despite the consensus from economists that you've been pointing out. So that you've accomplished this much is a testament to your tenacity, but I think the tone of the recent edits may be a little rough, and a place to concede to try to get some middle ground here. Fephisto ( talk) 13:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC) reply

Can you find any "Scholarly sources [or] high-quality non-scholarly sources" which agree with any of the celebrity economist soundbite news reports you are relying on

This is frustrating beyond belief. You put in scholarly sources, and you get slammed with WP:SYNTH or unscrupulous individuals even claiming WP:OR. You put in actual sources, and they slam you with WP:NEWSORG ! Sorry for venting on your talk page, but I am amazed by your tenacity here and I want to help you out, I just don't know how with all of this. Fephisto ( talk) 13:55, 14 April 2023 (UTC) reply

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I saw you deleted the changes my student had made to this piece because sources weren't adequately acknowledged--thanks for being vigilant. I reverted your change so I could add the sources on all the information while keeping the worthwhile contributions that had been made by the original writer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phrynefisher ( talk • contribs) 15:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC) reply

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Please refrain from reverting edits to the Low Income Housing Tax Credit page. Industry experts are updating the page to reflect the latest data. You have reverted the same edit multiple times - this edit removes outdated data that does not accurately depict how costs of the LIHTC program are measured. Adldc ( talk) 18:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC) reply

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WP:GNG only requires 2 sources with significant coverage. Stochastic parrot has three times that. They are all specifically about the term and the concept it refers to. Despite its relatively recent coinage, the term is already being used in textbooks, with several pages of coverage. If you've got a problem with that, take it to what you think is the most relevant noticeboard. I didn't write the article, and the topic is certainly notable. Skyerise ( talk) 11:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC) reply

Also, the paper has been cited in 1529 papers in the two years since it was published. Which you could have taken 10 seconds to find out. Skyerise ( talk) 12:50, 12 May 2023 (UTC) reply

It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on a biased choice of users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stochastic parrot. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Thank you. Skyerise ( talk) 23:08, 13 May 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Skyerise: I am familiar with the rule against canvassing; I started the Teahouse discussion just after editor:GoldenBootWizard276 suggested that, and I didn't mention the specifics until people there stated that specifics are important. For the record, I posted that statement in the Teahouse discussion [8] about 4 hours before I added the comment that I had done so to the Deletion discussion page: [9]. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 18:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC) reply

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, such as at Wikipedia:Teahouse, (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

1. Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment, or
2. With the cursor positioned at the end of your comment, click on the signature button located above the edit window.

This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.

Thank you. Cordless Larry ( talk) 08:54, 15 May 2023 (UTC) reply

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I have some questions about this statement: "Hickel argues in The Divide that pre-colonial societies were not poor, challenging notions of a Great Divergence. He writes that precolonial agricultural societies in Africa and India were “quite content” with a “subsistence lifestyle,” and that it was colonialism that made them worse off.[15]" (1) The cited source does not mention the Great Divergence. I checked The Divide and found that Hickel affirms the Great Divergence, citing Pomeranz, and argues it was caused by colonialism. (2) I could not find a statement in The Divide PDF saying pre-colonial societies were not poor... only that they were not worse off than Europe in the 1500s. In the World Development article mentioned earlier in the bio, Hickel does say that in pre-colonial societies “extreme poverty was not a normal condition”. Maybe better to use this statement instead? (3) I searched "quite content" and "subsistence lifestyle" in The Divide and found it refers specifically to South Africa in the 1800s (not "Africa and India"), where he says Dutch and British settlers could not attract enough labour for colonial plantations and mines because the local population was “quite content” with a “subsistence lifestyle” (the section says "under traditional tenure arrangements, most people had access to land on which to graze their cattle and grow food for their families. They didn’t see why they should leave their homes for back-breaking labour on plantations and in mines") and so colonisers resorted to taxation and dispossession to push people into wage labour. This makes me think footnote 15 is not a RS? Do you agree? Should we clarify with additional detail or just remove the statement? AnaGuterres ( talk) 10:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC) reply

The same source [15] is cited late to say "As a consequence of population growth, the absolute number of people living under this threshold has increased from 3.2 billion in 1981 to 4.2 billion in 2015, according to World Bank data." But in that source it is the author who says it is a consequence of population growth, while Hickel says this view assumes extreme poverty is a natural condition, which he disputes. Suggest removing the phrase "As a consequence of population growth".

Source [15] is also cited to say "Additionally, Shaohua Chen and Martin Ravallion's research shows that no matter where the poverty threshold is defined, the percentage of the world's residents who live below it declined from 1981 to 2008." But in that source Hickel agrees that proportions are declining (the section on Chen and Ravallion is preceded by saying "as Hickel himself concedes". He is also cited as writing "The proportion of people living under $1.90 per day has declined significantly, but poverty as measured by $7.40/day has declined more slowly, from 70.8 percent in 1981 to 58.1 percent in 2013.” It seems his main contention is just that the $1.90 line is too low to capture the scale of poverty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnaGuterres ( talk • contribs) 10:47, 28 May 2023 (UTC) reply

The sixth quoted source in this article that gives an estimated 6 cents per kWh generation cost may be from a reliable source (the San Francisco Chronicle), but the newspaper quotes a potentially bias source with a financial interest in keeping the plant open by portraying it as cheaper than other forms of electricity generation. The price per kWh is not given any justification or clarification whether it includes the cost of building/decommissioning the plant, or just the cost of the fuel. Looking deeper, the price of nuclear at 6 cents per kWh is not borne out by other reputable sources, and the cost of wind and solar are comparable or less in many cases. This statement should be deleted as biased.

There are many instances in this article that make it appear to be written by individuals with a particular bias towards the safety and continued operation of the plant. 2605:59C8:50F5:6910:8078:7B3A:763B:4232 ( talk) 00:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Just to avoid an edit war, could you explain why you think that source isn't usable. You're allowed to use user created content (I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I'm assuming you mean non news sources) given that its verifiable which it very much is, easily so. LoomCreek ( talk) 19:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply

"The appropriateness of any source depends on the context. The best sources have a professional structure for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments. The greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source." This clearly fits that definition. LoomCreek ( talk) 19:26, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Please see WP:SPS, and also: this discussion should be happening on the article talk page, so other editors can see this discussion; that is the appropriate venue for this discussion. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 19:27, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I've since moved it over there. I can delete this section and we can move it over there, if your good with that.- LoomCreek ( talk) 19:34, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Also I hope its clear I'm acting in good faith! I just genuinely think this is a good source for the information. LoomCreek ( talk) 20:25, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I didn't think you were the owner or promoter of that site; and didn't mean to imply bad faith, I'm just a stickler for sourcing. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 20:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I just wanted to make it clear is all. I understand how sometimes things can become a little heated.

Just as a heads up, with something that is unrelated to this specifically.

I'd be a bit more careful with deleting what appears to be unsourced content in the lead. As a lot of editors avoid citations in the lead per WP:WHENNOTCITE & MOS:LEADCITE and instead have those citations present in the body.

It's not something every editor follows (myself included, in most cases I prefer including the citation), but it is a fairly common convention. And you could end up accidentally deleting very useful information to the reader, on the assumption it's uncited when it does actually have a citation.

Cheers, LoomCreek ( talk) 21:33, 19 June 2023 (UTC) reply

@ LoomCreek: Thanks for the friendly advice! I am actually very aware of that; often leads look better without citations, and often when summarizing a large article, it is almost impossible to include all references which could be used to support a summary statement in the lead, so they are uncited. I generally always try to cite contentious content in the lead, since I know it gets challenged. I removed the text where this discussion started since (from what I remember without checking) the previous lead said 6,000 and you changed it to 8,000 ONLY in the lead, with the new source, so it was evident that that specific source was used for that content. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 23:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Oh no worries, I just brought it up as one of the other edits on the page mistakenly removed some information cited in the body. The comment is completely unrelated to my edits, hopefully that clears things up. (I've since corrected the good faith removal, so I wouldn't worry about it). - LoomCreek ( talk) 23:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC) reply

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Your recent editing history at Gavin Newsom shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

Hello. I am writing because you have reverted a number of changes that I have made to the current Governor of California articles. You are re-adding a non-sequitor point to the article which has been moved to a more relevant section of the article. Thank you for your help and now your point has been added to the relevant section. Take care Steve.A.Dore.4 ( talk) 01:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC) reply

- Hello, I am writing to you again to request that you please ensure that you add the requested sentence your are attempting to add to the relevant section of the article. Please be respectful.

- I am writing you again because you went into my profile and tagged me with this same tag, and had wikipedia send me a warning, after I tagged your profile here. However, as you can see you were wrong in what you were doing. The very fact that you have not gone back and re-added that ridiculous sentence is an admission of this. We don't want your kind of dishonesty here on Wikipedia. You don't have good intentions. Go blog or something. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve.A.Dore.4 ( talk • contribs) 04:40, 13 September 2023 (UTC) reply

I went to the wrong page. My apologies. SalClements ( talk) 15:50, 18 July 2023 (UTC) reply

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Re: "The sources you have found only talk about emergency contraception" - Well, of course. I'd have happily put that in the article text myself except that every time I made an edit, even if it was a single word, it got pushback. The most recent pushback was based entirely on questions of sourcing, so I just focused on that. However, the article is about a controversy, and the controversy isn't about BC in a global sense but about EC specifically. SalClements ( talk) 08:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC) reply

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The criticisms by the Mercury News sources from 9 months ago are contradicted by recent reports from May of this year (Reuters' report is cited in Impact) that state that the EPIC Center in Silicon Valley will be expanded. I apologize for the unforced error of not sourcing the statement, but keep in mind that I was trying to add context to the statements, not suppress it. These are not the same things. I will add a source from now on. Jarrod Baniqued (he/him) ( talk) 15:39, 16 August 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Jarrod Baniqued: If I remember correctly, you added something to that effect and I reverted your addition because your addition failed to make the distinction between RESEARCH (which the EPIC Center is, if we are talking about the same thing) and MANUFACTURING, which is what the MercNews says will not be built in California. If you add to this section, please be sure to understand and make clear to the reader that these are NOT the same thing. (The CHIPS act attempts to encourage both). --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 20:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC) reply

To further my point, many electronics products (Apple comes to mind) now say something along the lines of: "Engineered/designed in California, built/assembled/manufactured in China." That is the distinction; no FABS are expected to be built in CA, and that is probably a very widely held belief, not just whoever the MercNews interviewed. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 20:31, 16 August 2023 (UTC) reply

Understood. I see the difference now. I shall make clear that the EPIC Center is distinct from more traditional fab manufacturing. Jarrod Baniqued (he/him) ( talk) 01:42, 17 August 2023 (UTC) reply

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By claiming the article is only about the "surge" and therefore should not include the disinflation period, then since any news articles that come about later in time will be about how the inflation stopped, then that means that they'll be able to claim that those articles are irrelevant to the current article, thereby keeping their narrative on the article intact.

It's genius. Completely evil. But genius.

What do you say about making a 2023 disinflation article? Fephisto ( talk) 13:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC) reply

You are right, that's why I wanted to name the article "...high inflation period"... I think that might be better, because it would continue. I don't think that "2023 disinflation" is a topic or term that is being used in the news... I'll think more about this, though. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 00:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Hi! First, thanks for your edits to that page, which, among other things, have caught some deficiencies in my edits and fixed them. I do have a question about the sentence "The most common reason women report for having an abortion is to postpone or stop childbearing". Isn't that always the reason for an abortion, that is, doesn't it include all the other reasons given? Perhaps that reason is intended to include only not being ready to have a child (rather than reasons such as a deformed fetus or danger to the health of the woman), but that's not clear and it would also would include several of the other reasons given. So I'm questioning the logic of referring to postponing or stopping childbearing as the most common reason. NightHeron ( talk) 11:16, 29 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I see that the sentence I questioned is taken directly from the Guttmacher source. But I still don't see the logic of it. Postponing or stopping childbearing is what an abortion does. Saying that that's the most common reason for abortion is like saying that the most common reason employees call in sick is to not go to work that day. Maybe the sentence could be paraphrased, or it could be omitted, and then for the other reasons we could say "Among the most common..." NightHeron ( talk) 01:33, 30 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Ok, so that source also says in the "Conclusions" section: the decision to have an abortion is usually motivated by more than one factor.

And: Worldwide, the most commonly reported reason women cite for having an abortion is to postpone or stop childbearing. The second most common reason—socioeconomic concerns

The "postpone or stop childbearing" could be for reasons OTHER than the socio-economic ones, like birth-timing, or like maybe (not mentioned in this source) but I've seen in a US poll: "so they can spend more mothering time with the children they already have / to be a better mother to the kids they already have", but it is NOT economic constraints.

Also, from same source: Timing births and controlling family size. The desire to postpone a birth or to stop childbearing is a very common reason given by women seeking abortion. In almost half of the 23 studies (in 20 countries) with this information, about 50% or more of women gave the birth-timing and family-size control cluster of reasons as their most important reason.

Essentially, if you read this section in the source it explains that in detail: "Underlying Reasons for Abortion".

Maybe it would be better paraphrased as "The most common reason women report for having an abortion is for birth-timing and limiting family size."? --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 02:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Yes, I like the paraphrasing in terms of birth-timing and family size. That removes the apparent incongruity of the other less clear wording. Thanks. NightHeron ( talk) 02:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Thanks for bringing this up, you are right, my original phrasing basically uses many words to tell the reader nothing, like the previous wording of that sentence, sorry about that. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 05:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Please remember to remain WP:CIVIL on discussion pages such as Talk:15-minute city. All-caps WP:SHOUTING is unlikely to help you make your case when other users have disagreed with your proposed changes. Thank you. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I use those to emphasize certain words, shouting would be using all caps. I guess I could use bolding instead. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 22:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC) reply

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https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2021%E2%80%942022_inflation_surge&diff=prev&oldid=1189496682

I recommend you self-revert pending Talk resolution soibangla ( talk) 06:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC) reply

You started the edit war by reverting my change (of your misrepresentation of the NYT source) of YOUR ADDITION. You could remove your addition and we could discuss that. --- Avatar317 ^(talk) 17:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC) reply

This may be of interest. Polygnotus ( talk) 11:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Also, if you prefer, you could combine all those sources in 1 footnote, so that the article just shows a single ^[a] with the templates {{ efn}} and {{ notelist}} Polygnotus ( talk) 11:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Congrats for entering Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by number of edits/5001–10000! Keep up the good work! Timothytyy ( talk) 12:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Hello, Avatar317

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Hi there. I know this is ironic as my username is not a robot, but I can vouch for DaniaHernandez, Abigail Kingston, and Kedmon 10. You may be right that they didn't cite well (I don't know because I can't see what they did), but they are real people. We're in a digital writing class together and we were assigned a project where each group has to edit a Wikipedia page based around a social justice issue. Bear with them as they learn the editing process, most of us have never done this before. Thanks, friend :) NotaRobot5000 ( talk) 04:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC) reply

@ NotaRobot5000

Thank you. We appreciate this. I know I messed up the one citation, I didn't get a chance to go back and correct the error. We are new to the Wiki community. I apologize for the learning curve we are experiencing. 98.101.109.21 ( talk) 19:02, 12 February 2024 (UTC) reply

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Thanks for thankyou. I guess the article is drawing to a close now as the dams come down, but the restoration is worth following. The people on the Yurok Tribe condor cam message board (where I became involved with condors' plight) liked it as it shows their efforts to save the salmon that their society is so tied to. I will try to keep an up-to-date section on habitat restoration on their article page which I have started working on and especially the food culture section. Richard Nowell ( talk) 09:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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I can send you some sources if you like (you can use https://relay.firefox.com/ for privacy). Polygnotus ( talk) 22:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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