• Binksternet Can I get a second opinion on the Deep Purple related edits by this user? My sense is they are okay because they are factually correct and sourced to stuff that isn't obviously deprecated in WP:RSP. However, given previous discussions here, I'm concerned a WP:ICANTHEARYOU issue might be present. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:13, 28 June 2021 (UTC) reply

Ray1983a has been using chart stats websites for song release dates. Is that what you mean? I don't have a big problem with it. Binksternet ( talk) 20:29, 28 June 2021 (UTC) reply

The Dutch charts is the offical website by MegaCharts and is part of an 'umbrella' site, covering French, Belgian, Spanish etc, charts. I've been careful not to use the Chart entry-dates, but the site gives the release dates which can also be checked by the mention of Label and catalogue number for the countries in which it was released/date is known.

for example; Toto- Africa 7" Single A|B CBS CBS A2510 [uk] 25/06/1982 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray1983a ( talk • contribs) 20:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC) reply

Okay, that's fine. As you can see above this page, there have been multiple instances of editors trying to contact you, and escalating to a short block. That's why it's a good idea to discuss things if a disagreement or confusion arises. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC) reply

Yes, I realise that now. I hadn't realised earlier sources were unreliable. I've been more careful to doublecheck info

The accuracy of release dates from the Dutch Charts website is questionable. For example, it shows the release date for Van Halen's single "You Really Got Me" as 31/1/1978 [1], but it had already entered the Billboard Hot 100 on 1/28 [2] (p. 108, No. 91) so it was released sometime prior (with the reporting lag, maybe a week or two earlier). Chart sites may be reliable for chart statistics, but better sources should be used for discographical info. — Ojorojo ( talk) 14:54, 29 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Hi, that's because in this case, the Dutch release is shown as 31/01. This can be checked by the catalogue number, WB 17107. The Cat no. for the US is WBS 8515. Therefor I did not edit "You Really Got Me".

In most cases there's an additional (us), (uk), (aus) -for Australia) or (Ger)-for Germany) present, right after the Label and Catalogue number.

Moreover, I always double-check Billboard and the UK official charts for entry dates to be sure. If they do not work out, but the label and cat No. do, the release date logically does not apply to US or UK singles, but perhaps from EU, and I will not edit. Dutchcharts is the page I'm using, but the info is also available on the Swiss hitparade.ch and austriancharts.at for example. It's the same database, so it's not strictly Dutch info. Ray1983a ( talk) 20:35, 29 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Several edits (other user names & IPs) are not so careful about double checking to ensure that the dates are applicable to U.S. releases. Where does the "same database" get its U.S. release date info? It seems easier (and less likely for misinterpretation) to source the info directly rather than from a third party. — Ojorojo ( talk) 14:36, 30 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Well, I'm not aware of any US music websites with a database like this one, for example, Billboard does not provide release dates, just the date when songs entered the charts, as does Official UK charts (and MusicVF - which is relying on those two).

dutchcharts (or austriancharts, or hitparade.ch) is the official recognized charts website for those countries, so my feeling is either they source directly from record companies, or authorized discography books.

I'm not doubting the info on their site, though I can understand that because it's a European site, it might be seen as (partially) unreliable. As you are the second editor who raised questions about it, I have contacted the website and asked where the US and UK info is sourced from Ray1983a ( talk) 15:09, 30 August 2021 (UTC) reply

I doubt a business like hung medien, who seems to be behind many of these websites, would invest the extra time and expense to research info that has no apparent bearing on its charts. A lot of hung's info appears to be user-generated from its forum posts. An IP asked whether one of its sites is reliable for release dates at the reliable sources noticeboard. There is a lot of effort to add non-chart info and links from these sites to WP articles. — Ojorojo ( talk) 15:54, 30 August 2021 (UTC) reply

In that case, I will track down some discography/biography books from the Rotterdam library, see what they can tell me, and make corrections to my edits where needed. If the info was user-generated, with any luck, the release-dates added on the Hung Medien sites were all made in good faith and correct for the respective countries to which they apply. For now, I will stop from editting further using this source. Thanks for the info! Ray1983a ( talk) 16:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Many user-generated sites may be correct, but we have no way of knowing. If indeed there are discography/biography books with release details, then they should be used and cited. Otherwise, leave the chart sites for chart positions. — Ojorojo ( talk) 17:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Please stop putting the HTML tag for small fonts into the infobox. At MOS:SMALLFONT, the guideline says no small font in the infobox. Thank you. Binksternet ( talk) 22:32, 15 July 2021 (UTC) reply

Understood

Please, don't transform dates from mdy to dym solely because you are not living in the United States. Many of the pages you have modified are about American topics and WP:NATIONALTIES applies. (CC)  Tbhotch ^™ 03:32, 28 August 2022 (UTC) reply

my apologies, I thought Wikipedia had moved to date-month-year as a standard. Ray1983a ( talk) 03:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC) reply

Hi Ray1983a. When using a book as a source, like you did here, please provide the page number using the |paga= parameter. Please also follow MOS:CITEPUNCT: All ref tags should immediately follow the text to which the footnote applies, with no intervening space. Have fun editing! -- Muhandes ( talk) 09:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC) reply

While I'm at it, if you are linking to the book from the Internet Archive, I'm sure you noted that you can link directly to the page. In this case, I supposed the page was 302 so I corrected it, please verify. -- Muhandes ( talk) 10:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC) reply

Hi, thanks for the help! ~~ Ray1983a ( talk) 14:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC) reply

Hello, I noticed that you may have recently made edits to Screaming for Vengeance while logged out. Wikipedia's policy on multiple accounts usually does not allow the use of both an account and an IP address by the same person in the same setting and doing so may result in your account being blocked from editing. Additionally, making edits while logged out reveals your IP address, which may allow others to determine your location and identity. If this was not your intention, please remember to log in when editing. I see you have been editing logged-out with the IP range Special:Contributions/191.57.21.22/19 intermittently during the last few months. Binksternet ( talk) 19:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC) reply

I did not make those edits.. could it be my account is hacked some way? It appears it copy-pasted an earlier edit of mine from months ago Ray1983a ( talk) 20:07, 28 February 2023 (UTC) reply

I don't think you're hacked. It is much simpler to copy your work than to hack your account. Binksternet ( talk) 23:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC) reply

Greetings. Please do not use Metal Archives/Encyclopaedia Metallum as a source for release dates or reviews, as it has long been considered unreliable and user-generated per WP:ALBUM/SOURCE. Mac Dreamstate ( talk) 18:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC) reply

thank you, understood. Ray1983a ( talk) 03:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC) reply

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you add unsourced or poorly sourced material to Wikipedia, as you did at Rock the House Live!. - FlightTime ( open channel) 15:46, 30 July 2023 (UTC) reply

Not unsourced at all..as a matter of fact I added Martin Strong's work on discographies, and removed wrong dates that showed the entry on the charts, and where possible add the actual date. There is a tendency on wikipedia to add the entry-date on the charts as "release date", which is obviously wrong Ray1983a ( talk) 15:52, 30 July 2023 (UTC) reply

Your recent editing history at ...But Seriously shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. - FlightTime ( open channel) 15:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC) reply

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. - FlightTime ( open channel) 16:33, 30 July 2023 (UTC) reply

Please do not add or change content without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. FMSky ( talk) 21:01, 13 August 2023 (UTC) reply

Hello Ray1983a! Please check the Master of Reality album article as there is an IP changing the release date from August to July 21, 1971, repeating that old misinformation propagated by Black Sabbath's own Facebook. I even tried to argue using the LP's entry in the UK charts as justification, but the IP may not stop. 2804:14D:5CC4:484C:610F:FCBC:75CC:4831 ( talk) 14:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Now the Martin C. Strong reference has been removed with the argument that "the source says nothing about Black Sabbath" nonsense? Please take a look there. 2804:14D:5CC4:484C:610F:FCBC:75CC:4831 ( talk) 14:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I think the page should be locked. why are you using an anonymous IP address? More sources say July 1971 than August 1971, Quit calling for back up which is a violation of Wikipedia policy WP:MEAT 2601:3C5:8200:97E0:B88F:BB3E:D308:57FA ( talk) 05:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Source for this change, please. Mac Dreamstate ( talk) 22:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Aftermath (Rolling Stones album), without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Also, Mother's Little Helper Tkbrett (✉) 02:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Ray1983a Hi Ray, I removed a unreliable source on In the Zone album because it said the album was released in Argentina 3 weeks before the US release. November 1 also falls on Saturday which make this impossible. Could you revert it back and explain that albums can't come out on weekends? I would appreciate it. Jade505 ( talk) 01:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Ray1983a Hi thanks man, also on Britney Spears: In the Zone E.P and Greatest Hits: My Prerogative it is using that Argentina source with April 1, 2004 and November 1, 2004. Could you fix that aswell Jade505 ( talk) 12:59, 2 January 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Ray1983a Hi do you think it would a good idea if we remove those sources of those pages, It's just that editors could click on them and set it back to that -- Jade505 ( talk) 18:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Better to keep the sources, even though in these cases better sources are now provided. I think it's argued enough that "1 Nov" and "1 April" etc are nonsense-dates and better sources like RIAA are in place to give the US or international release date. BPI, the British equivallent of the American RIAA, also often use 01-(month) as release date, while it is obvious this is just a placeholder. So to just cite the month of release should do it Ray1983a ( talk) 20:03, 4 January 2024 (UTC) reply

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Hello Ray1983a, sorry for the inconvenience, but would you please take a look at the Machine Head article as there is an account with 80 edits that continues to insist that the correct release date is March 25, as you may already know it was a Saturday... I added the Martin C. Strong's book (Great Rock Discography) citation that says April 1972, knowing that the album entered the UK charts on April 15 of that year. 2804:14D:5CC4:4BB3:C55D:7D20:7780:F36F ( talk) 14:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

well, the LP was very likely released on 31 March 1972, except perhaps due to Good Friday, it might've available a day earlier, 30 March. Can't really say what the logistics around Good Fridays were 50 yrs ago in England.

But as of yet, I have no strong source for this, so I just leave it be Ray1983a ( talk) 17:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, it really could have been released on 31 March 1972 or a day earlier and in this case The Great Rock Discography reports a wrong month of release. But now to add this 30/31 March date we need a good material like a magazine or something. I recommend Record Mirror magazine, you can find some 1972 editions available in PDF on the World Radio History website. Here's the link: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Record_Mirror.htm 2804:14D:5CC4:4BB3:4DFE:181B:F6CB:C27B ( talk) 06:55, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Record Mirror saves! 2804:14D:5CC4:4BB3:659F:EA63:46CF:3BE0 ( talk) 09:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

haha, yes it does Ray1983a ( talk) 10:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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Hi, can you point out where in the source you added to Johnny the Fox it says the album was released on the 22nd. Thanks, Bretonbanquet ( talk) 14:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Turns out I was mistaken. Elton John's "Blue Moves" was reviewed in Record Mirror on 23 October 1976, and BPI lists this album as released on Friday 22 October.

Therefor "Johnny the Fox", which was reviewed in the 16 Oct issue, was released on the 15th.

Basically all albums on major labels were released on Fridays in this era in the UK and Ireland, it was the default release day of the industry. So Popoff simply made an error Ray1983a ( talk) Ray1983a ( talk) 22:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

So that's not a source for the release date? You've deduced a release date from a review in RM, which obviously isn't enough. I know, you've often said albums were only released on Fridays, but I've never seen any actual source for that. Specifically, you need an actual source to verify the date Johnny the Fox was released. Maybe Popoff made an error, maybe he didn't – we don't have any evidence for that either. To avoid this slow-burn edit war going on indefinitely, I'll change it to "October 1976", because we at least agree on that. We can't synthesise a date through guesswork and a record review. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 18:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Fair enough.

That the industry in the UK released albums and singles on Fridays during the 1960s and 1970s is pretty much common knowledge among record-collectors and discographers.

EMI started releasing on Mondays in 1980. Other labels gradually made the change to Mondays between '84 and '87.

Open up any 'Music Week' magazine from the 70s and you'll find the 'New Album"-section announcing albums for release on Friday that week.

Mic Smith's research on Genesis also reveals all their issues were released on Fridays [ [3]

We have the BPI- database (BPI is the industry), by checking the release dates, it's clear they were on Friday.

For single- releases we have many promo-discs with release dates, all pointing to Fridays. For example;

https://www.discogs.com/release/10413594-Mud-Rocket/image/SW1hZ2U6Mjg5MTE5OTU=

(released on 19 July 1974, a Friday)

So I would say we have an abundance of evidence for this claim. Perhaps it should be made a guideline of wiki for music pages.

The US and other markets had a different policy Ray1983a ( talk) 19:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I'd say trying to make it a guideline of some sort would be a good idea, and all the relevant verifications can be made there. It does seem to be the default day of the week for releases, but I would just say it doesn't allow for any anomalies, like strikes or last-minute hitches resulting in a delay. Just from an encylopedic point of view, each date should have a source, but I know that's not always possible, especially when you're going back a long way. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 19:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

That's true, I am careful in making these edits using UK calenders. When there is no direct source, the month of release will suffice.

For example, Good Friday was not a release day early on, but it appears gradually it became one, as shops started to open that day.

There are also (Monday-) Bank Holidays in England, when there is no trade and there is Easter Monday and Christmas, on which records were not released for obvious reasons. But for the most part, BPI and magazines have taken these exeptions into account.

Strikes, delays etc from long ago are almost impossible to check, but there should be an official release date for every record nontheless, which is what the recordlabel communicates through press releases (which end up with the magazines), promo discs for radio, magazine ads and the like. We have no choice but to rely on that Ray1983a ( talk) 20:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply