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Re: OrBat graphic
Thanks for making the graphic! I have a few concerns though. First of all, I'm not aware of a prison guard company in the Home Front Command. Do you have more information on it? It seems strange because I mainly know about MP units. Also, I don't believe that the Erez and Taoz Battallions are subordinate to GOC Headquarters (mazi), but it's possible to check this. Thanks again,
Ynhockey(
Talk)11:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The structure isn't exactly correct though in the image, and actually globalsecurity has it right. As you can see on the globalsecuty page, the page deals with all ground forces (basically, structure of all combat and combat support forces which are not subordinate to the airforce or navy), not the actual Ground Forces Command (mazi), which actually doesn't have many subortinate units. Mazi is covered in the first part of the globalsecurty page, then it lists northern command units, etc. Therefore you cannot say that the northern command and other commands are subordinate to the Ground Forces Command. The IDF structure is actually very different from the US Army (as far as I know the US Army), because it has many commands, Ground Forces Command being just one of them. There are about 20 commands, such as Ground Forces, Airforce, Navy, Southern, Northern, Central, Home Front, Human Resources, Military Intelligence, Logistics Medical and Operations, Planning, etc. You can see this approximate structure in my previous image.
About the prison guard company, I'm fairly sure that it's also not subordinate to the Home Front Command, but I will find out. There is now just one company-level prison guard unit for Palestinian prisoners in the IDF, in Mali, I think that's subordinate to Ground Forces, not entirely sure. Furthermore, there are 2 battalion-level prison guard units for Israeli soldiers as prisoners, that's Prison Four and
Prison Six.
Great job on that graphic, as usual! And it seems that it gathered some interest that might lead to improvement, which is a good thing.
Russoswiss02:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
IDF_Ground_Forces.png
I'm sorry, but it is full of mistakes...
Ground Forces Command neither above Home Front Command (witch is regional command), nor "Logistics, Medical, and the Centers Directorate". Directoriates should be under Genereral Staff, regional commands (North, Central, Southern, Homefront) should also be under Genereral Staff, and the same with IAF, navy and Ground Forces Command, independently.
Corps should be under Ground Forces Command (except Intelligence Corps, Military Police, Education and Youth Corps, General Corps, Medical Corps, and of course, Sea Corps and Air force). But, divisions and brigades (except those of training, like 828 infantry, 460 armor) should be under corresponding regional command (except Homefront, of course).
It would be great if you can fix that, and then I'll tell you all the rest. There are many more little mistakes, like missing or split units, wrong names...
Look, I am in MAZI, I know the structure well, and I'm aware of the structural changes that took place, and those that did not yet took place. Your sources are totally wrong and major thing and in small details. Do you thing I'm telling this to just for fun? The graphics is great, but the structure is just totally wrong, no maters what those magazines write.
Flayer15:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The structure is like here:
[1]. When it is done, you can just put in the regular divisions under corresponding regional commands, brigades under divisions, training brigades under corresponding corps, and so on. And then it would be easy to fix the structure of each infantry brigade, the structure of its recon batalions (recon company, AT company, engineering company, sometimes communication company), structure of the armor brigades, independent units of certain divisions, under regional command level, SF units of the higher level, and so on.
Flayer11:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The structure here (
Israel Defense Forces#Military structure) is correct.
Lets start from Northern Command: It has 36th "Gaash"/"Rage" armor division, 91st "Galil"/"Galilee" territiorial division, some reserve divisions, 605th "ha-Mahatz"/"The Crush" engineering battalion, "Shahaf"/"Seagull" field intelligence battalion, alpinist SF reserve unit, and probably some other units.36th "Gaash"/"Rage" armor division has 7th armor brigade "Saar me-Golan"/"Storm from Golan", 188th armor brigade "Barak"/"Lightning", 1st infantry brigade "Golani", artillery regiment "Golan" (not sure about the number), and some other units, including the "Golan" territorial brigade. 7th armor brigade has its Merkava mk 2 battalions (Later i can check the names the numbers), AT company, "sayeret 7" recon company, and and probably some other units. 188th armor brigade has its Merkava mk 3 battalions (Later i can check the names the numbers), AT company, "sayeret 188" reserve recon company, and and probably some other units. Infantry brigade "Golani" has its batallions (names & numbers - later), "Egos"/"Nut Tree" anti-guerilla SF battlion, special/recon battalion, signals company, and probably some other minor units. Special/recon battalion has recon ("sayeret") company, AT comapny, and engineering company (names & numbers - later). Artillery regiment "Golan" has its artillery battalions, one of them with MLRS (names & numbers - later). 91st "Galil"/"Galilee" territiorial division has two territiorial divisions 300th "Bar'am" and 169th "Hiram" - both are reserve infantry brigades, 299th "Herev"/"Sword" druze independent infantry battalion (arguably, it belongs directly to northern command or even directly to Infantry and Paratroopers Corps Command) which has a recon "sayeret" company (note that not every SF unit is a "sayeret", "sayeret" means recon unit, so only recon untis should be called "sayeret"), and and probably some other minor units.
Now, Central Command: it has 162th "Ha-Plada"/"The Steel" armor division, West bank territiorial division, some reserve divisions (including 98th "Ha-Esh"/"The Fire" paratroopers reserve division), 601st "Asaf" engineering battalion, "Nitzan"/"Bud" field intelligence battalion, and probably some other units.
162th "Ha-Plada"/"The Steel" armor division has 401st "I'kvot Ha-Barzel"/"Iron Trails" armor brigade, 933th Nahal infantry brigade, 900h "Kfir"/"Yong Lion" designated infantry brigade, 215th artillery regiment "Kala David"/Sling of David", and some other units, including the "Jordan Valley" territorial brigade (sometimes called "The Valley" brigade or "Arie"/"Lion" brigade) 401st armor brigade has its Merkava mk 4 battalions (names & numbers - later), AT company, "sayeret 188" recon company, and and probably some other units. "Nahal" has its batallions (names & numbers - later, one of them is paratroppers battalion), special/recon battalion, signals company, and probably some other minor units. Special/recon battalion has recon ("sayeret") company, AT comapny, and engineering company (names & numbers - later). "Kfir" has 6 designated infantry battalions permanently assigned mainly to West bank territiorial division (names, numbers, assignment order - later), and probably some other units. 215th artillery regiment has its artillery battalions(names & numbers - later). 98th "Ha-Esh"/"The Fire" paratroopers reserve division has 35th regular paratroppers brigade "Flying Serpent, some reserve paratroppers brigades: 226th "Ha-Nesher ha-Shahor"/"The Black Eagle", 551th "Hetzei Ha-Esh"/"Arrows of Fire", 623th "Hod Ha-Hanit"/"Head of the Spear", and some other units propably including "Maglan"/"Ibis" (arguably, it belongs directly to central command) SF unit (which is not "sayeret"), AA parachuting unit (arguably, inside "Maglan") and other. West bank territiorial division has 7 territorial brigades ("Yehuda", "Etzion", "Benyamin", "Shomron", "Ephraim", "Menashe", and "Maccabim") and the "Duvdevan"/"Cherry Tree" SF undercover srike unit (arguably, it belongs directly to central command), and some other units, including some MP units.
Sothern Command: it has 366th "Amud ha-Esh"/"Pillar of Fire" reserve armour division, 80th "Edom" territorial division, "Gaza" territirial division, some reserve divisions, 603th "Lahav"/"Blade" engineering battalion, "Nesher"/"Eagle" field intelligence battalion, 33th "Caracal" unisex independent light infantry battalion (arguably, it belongs directly to Infantry and Paratroopers Corps Command), 585th bedouin desert recon battalion (arguably, it belongs to any of the 2 territorial brigades or on the other hand directly to Infantry and Paratroopers Corps Command), and probably some other units, including a reserve Eilat area CT unit. 366th "Amud ha-Esh"/"Pillar of Fire" division has 84th "Giv'ati" infantry brigade, 460th "Bnei Or"/"Sons of Light" training armor brigade (arguably, it belongs directly to Armor Corps Command), artillery regiment "Amud ha-Esh"/"Pillar of Fire" (not sure about the number), and some other units. "Giv'ati" has its batallions (names & numbers - later), special/recon battalion, and probably some other minor units. Special/recon battalion has recon ("sayeret") company, AT comapny, engineering company and signals comapny (names & numbers - later). 460th training armor brigade has its training battalions (names & numbers - later). Artillery regiment has its artillery battalions (names & numbers - later). "Edom" territorial division has "Arava" territorial brigade, "Sagi" territorial brigade and other units. "Gaza" territorial division has "Northern Gaza" territorial brigade, "Sothern Gaza" territorial brigade and other units. "Rimon"/"Pomegranate" SF unit was disbanded decades ago.
To be continued. Note that I do not expose any undisclosed inforamtion, and I don't know everything.
Flayer14:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
IDF Northern Command.png
Great job! It would be great to merge all such png graphics into one complete graphic when everyhing is done.
Minor things:
Regular engineering battalions (like 605th) not long ago became formally under regional command level (on paper, taken out from the divisions). Can't comment this.
I'll check later what can I say about Unit 427. Keep it there.
There is no such armored recon battalion under any division.
"Sayeret 7" is the one armored recon company of 7th brigde. It is not a SF unit, but an armor recon unit, though fairly capable of on foot operations. Same thing with 188th brigade, but "sayeret 188" is a reserve unit.
Later I'll check the names of the battalions.
There is nothing I can say about other units (8200, I-HAWK, target acquisition....)
Sayeret 95 Company of the Golani Brigade a reconnaissance unit. Generallly, the role of the reconnaissance units ("yehidat siur" = "YAHSAR" = "sayeret") in IDF is more then just reconnaissance. Such units usually are the prime units of its "mother units". It makes a confusion, 'casue some think that any prime unit or elite unit is a "sayeret" (=reconnaissance unit). Anyway, instead of YAHSAR Battalion we better write Reconnaissance Battalion, and instead of Sayeret ## Company (of Reconnaissance Battalion) we better write Reconnaissance Company. Later I'll get the names and the numbers of most infantry Reconnaissance Battalion and its companies. Aah, and I suggest removing training Btn from the structure. It is not excactly a battalion, rather a training facility... We better remove it. That's all about Northern Command, until I give you some names and numbers (and whatever I can say about unit 427).
Flayer20:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
::Great! "Special Troops Btn" is OK, though we better not call it (untill i find the real names) and its companies "Golani", like "Golani" AT Coy., "Golani" Recon Coy... It's enough one "Golani" inf. br. on top. Typo: name of the art.reg. is "Golan", not "Golani" once more.
7th brigade - correct names and numbers
75th btn "Romach"/"Lance"
77th btn "Oz"/"Courage"
82th btn "Gaash"/"Rage"
188th brigade - correct names and numbers
53th btn "Sufa"/"Storm"
71th btn "Reshef"/"Spark"
74th btn "Saar"/"Tempest" (just another word for storm)
Don't forget the updates above, please.
Flayer 16:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC) Can't see the updated file yet. Did you upload it?
Flayer16:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
IDF Central Command.png
401st Armor Brigade -> 401st Sayeret, sure.
"Sayeret" Company of Nahal recon Btn. is a recon company, same like in Golani, Giv'ati, Paratroopers...
As far as know, Maglan and YANMAM are under 98 Div. Maglan soldiers have the same shoulder tag like 98 Div logo. Maglan is not excactly an AT unit, rather SF destruction unit. Moran (possibly 8899) and Meitar (possibly 427) are much more in terms of AT units then Maglan. It is very complicated and mostly classified... In my opinion, it would be better to put both Moran and Meitar SF/AT units under Artillery Corps Command without any comments.
I'll check up later the MP units.
structure of 35th brigade "Flying Sepent" (no such thing "tzanhanima"):
It seems like signal company of Nahal is a part of the Special Troops Btn, unlike Golani. Verifying... NOT part of the btn.
Flayer09:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Globalsecurity maybe got it right, but it is still undisclosed info.
YANMAM (unlike "Maglan") is an abbreviation. Capital letters would be better, I think.
"Tzanchanim" is a hebrew word for paratroopers, but "tzanchanima" sounds like someone wants to fight with one of them. :-)
"Sachlab" unit no longer exists, and it wasn't a SF battalion anyway. "Erez" and "Ta'oz" are in the right place.
I think, all of the regular and reserve infantry brigades, except Kfir, should be considered mechanized infantry. But all territorial brigades, except Bar'am and Hiram, should be considered general infantry by definition (brigades responsible for the security of a specific region, is permanently stationed in one place but the individual soldiers are periodically changed). Bar'am and Hiram would be reserve territorial (worth to update the file) mechanized infantry brigades, unlike "normal" reserve brigades, unlike "normal" territorial brigades. Nevertheless, Kfir also can oparate APC's and IFV's if necessary, Golani can also oparate M113 (not just "Achzarit") if necessary. I think, it would be better not to mention which APC's and IFV's they use - they may use any kind of APC's and IFV's that IDF has. Paratroopers may also make use of any APC's and IFV's, jeeps... anything IDF has, not just parachute behind enemy lines.
Things you propably didn't notice: 212th artillery rgt of Northern Command called "Golan", not "Golani". Companies of the special troops btn of the "Golani" brigade, and the btn itself, aren't called "Golani". Maybe the don't have official names, maybe I just can't find it, but the only "Golani" thing is the brigade.
Possibly tomorrow I'll go through Southern Command.png, homefront, corps commands, directorates and whatever remains.
Every division and regional command has a logiscitcs rgt. Each logiscitcs rgt has:
Ammunition btn
Supply btn
Medical btn
ABC (NBC) comapny
MP company
(some irrelevant units)
Another info: each regular armor engineering btn (601th, 603th, 605th) has a heavy equipment company (with D9 armored bulldozers and other vehicles). Moreover, "Gaza" territorial division has its own heavy equipment company ("Abirey ha-Plada"/"Knights of Steel"). Same with West Bank territorial division ("Hatuley ha-Bar"/"Wild Cats" heavy equipment company).
Flayer15:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I got a mistake. Regular armor engineering btn (601th, 603th, 605th) still belong to regular armor divisions (correspondingly, 401th, 7th, 188th). But yet each regional command has a battalion-size engineering unit.
Special command teams of each regional command no longer exist.
Flayer —The preceding
signed but undated comment was added at 16:40, August 20, 2007 (UTC).
IDF_Southern_Command.png
460th training armor brigade (arguably belongs to armor corps command)
Regional commands engineering units build fortifications, bunkers, outposts, pave roads, cooperate with civilian contractor that do the same...
Flayer20:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
IDF - commands, directorates, corps...
General Staff
Northern Command - done (I suggest removing I-HWAK and 8200. Unreliable inclusion, classified issue.
Flayer13:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC))
Great work on the IDF Noclador! Am I correct to think that most of your information is coming from Flayer? Cheers
Buckshot0607:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
And my information is coming from the old IDF official site (soon it will be available again in the new site), other IDF units' sites, IDF official magazine "Bamahane", IDF spokesperson's publications, verious publications via israeli and worldwide media, professional discussion groups, forums, hebrew and english vikipedia, and from being in IDF Ground Forces Command HQ... Note that I would never publish undisclosed information, but if any information already published anywhere in Israel and the IDF military censorship did nothing about it, it implicates that this informations isn't classified.
Flayer08:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your note Noclador. How many ground manoeuvre battalions are in that 125,000? I ask because usually armies have a nearly 50-50 teeth:tail ratio- as evidenced from things I've read about the British Army and my own experience working for the NZ Army. Cheers
Buckshot0607:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
All these "Centers" neither under Logistics Division of ALRAM, nor under Logistics Corps of MAZI, but directly under ALRAM itself. Actually, there is/was a plan to converd both Logistics Corps and the Ordnance Corps of MAZI (both subordinated to MAZI not long ago) into one "Supply Division" that would assist ground forces, while the "Centers" would stay in the same relationship with MAZI, IAF, navy...
Flayer12:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I tried using
Microsoft Visio and it didn't work out too well, even though it's a program specifically meant for this kind of task. I can't imagine spending the time to actually draw these in Photoshop. If I drew something like this on paper and scanned it, would you be able to create a chart? Thanks,
Ynhockey(
Talk)10:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
IDF - well done!!
I would suggest only a few things:
National Search & Rescue SF unit is NOT 669. 669th heliborn evacuation unit belongs to IAF.
YALTAM diving unit belongs to the navy, so better not to include it, 'cause we write nothing about navy here yet.
YACHMAM unitS were disbanded when FI corps set up. TZASAM unit also doesn't seem to be existed in during the last decade.
The three LRRP units (called "Egoz", "Haruv" and "Shaked") existeed back to the 50's, 60's, mid 70's. One survived 'till mid 80's. Each of them was a kind of "Sayeret MATKAL" for each regional command, providing long range recon. The YAHMAM "target intelligence unit unit/s" set up in 1993 providing "target intelligence" for regional commands. FI corps set up in 2000, then YAHMAM (and probably TZASAM) were disbanded, and this duty been taken to the Field Intel Battalions. It seems you're right, maybe we would need to change the icon of the Field intel units.
Flayer13:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
"Meitar" nd "Moran" units probably use wheeled ATGM systems.
Sorry for being annoying... "Maglan" is rather an airborn unit. Capable of non-airborn operaions, like any other parachuting unit in the IDF, but usually described as an airborn behind-enemy-lines long-range demolition, AT and anti-AT SF unit.
Flayer09:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I have been observing your structure charts of IDF units and from my personal knowledge never really understood where you took much of your info from (it all seemed just plain wrong to me). Just now I realized that much of the information relates only to wartime situations where the structure of the army changes fundamentally.
Take for example
Image:IDF Central Command.png, where it says that there is a logistics regiment under one of the divisions, as well as an MP company. The entire logistics regiment (called Almar, short for Egged Logisti Merhavi - Regional Logistical Regiment) is a pure emergency reservist-only unit, which has nothing to do with how the army generally works. There are six of these regiments (3 in the north, 1 in the center and 2 in the south).
I think the sources need to be checked again, because I have no all-encompassing knowledge about the army and therefore cannot hope to correct every mistake. It is probably better to withhold the information from Wikipedia rather than give the wrong information.
In order to avoid mistakes, I think it's best to go only a few levels (for example, the army structure should only have brigade-level units and higher, a brigade structure should have company and higher, etc.) and not go too much into details, that way it's more difficult to make a mistake.
The Israeli army is different from all other armies in that it is almost entirely based on the reserve force, which basically takes up the reins during wartime on all levels. This situation occurs very rarely however. I think the only time that reserves were fully mobilized into the emergency structure was the Six-Day War (maybe it happenned in 1982 too, not sure, but definitely not in the last war. A sloppy implementation was also made in the Yom Kippur War). This basically means that the structure that you posted only reflects reality for a few days every 30-40 years. I'd say that at the very least, this should be mentioned in each article. --
Ynhockey(
Talk)21:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
IDF
Hi, man!
According to User:Ynhockey, the Northern Gaza Territorial Brigade called "Gefen" and the Southern Gaza Territorial Brigade is called "Katif". It would be nice to put it in.
Flayer (
talk)
12:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok - listen don't give me every tima a unit - make a list tell me all, as I don't want to open file - change file - upload file - have to read there is something else to do, make the list. i will be back in 2 haours and update the graphics than. --
noclador (
talk)
14:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll just put here everything I manage find.
If the graphics became too wide, you can cut and paste the 3 rightmost units of southern command somewhere beneath Edom Ter.Div, and also rearrange the homefront by deleting the repeating reserve NBC Defence btn + Rescue btn of each district.
Flayer (
talk)
14:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
OK. C4I Corps Command with its subunits taken back from Ground Forces Command to Computer Services Directorate. That's all for now.
Flayer (
talk)
07:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Israel Air & Space Arm
Well, lets try to form a structure, before it's too late. ;-)
Air & Space Arm
Chief of Arm Staff Group // the term Group is used here instead of Directorate
Air Group
Air Group for Helicopters
Intelligence Group
Technical Service for Intelligence Unit // VISINT unit
Equipment Group
Unit #22 - Air Maintenance Unit
"Ofeq/Horizon" unit // C4I of the air force
Manpower Group
Air Defense Command
5 Air Defense Regiments (167th - 171th), consist of at least 25-26 heavy SAM batteries (17 I-HAWK, 6 Patriot, including some PAC3, 2-3 Arrow) and ~70 light SAM launchers overall.
Air Defense School
Control Units Command
Special Air Forces Command
"Shaldag/Kingfisher" unit - special commando unit of the air force
Unit #669 - heliborne rescue and combat medevac unit
Chief Medical Officer Command
Air Medicine Unit // flight fitness of anyone who flies
Ramat David (1st air-wing)
109th Squadron ("The Valley Squadron") - operating F-16D
110th Squadron ("The Knights of North Squadron") - operating F-16C
117th Squadron ("The 1st Jet Squadron") - operating F-16C
193th Squadron ("The Defenders of th West") - operating Eurocopter Panther // joint command with the navy
Sdot Micha (2nd air-wing) - According to unofficial publications only, we can't really know what is there, if any.
150th Squadron of IRBM missiles
199th Squadron of IRBM missiles
248th Squadron of IRBM missiles
Hatzor (4th air-wing)
101th Squadron ("The 1st Combat Squadron") operating F-16C
105th Squadron ("The Scorpion Squadron") operating F-16D
144th res. Squadron ("The Phoenix Squadron") - capable of operating F-16A/B
147th res. Squadron ("The Goring Ram Squadron") - capable of operating A-4
149th res. Squadron ("The Crushing Parrot Squadron") - capable of operating Kfir
254th res. Squadron ("The Midland Squadron") - capable of operating Kfir
113th Squadron ("The Hornet Squadron") - operating AH-64D
Hatzerim (6th air-base)
69th Squadron ("The Hammers Squadron") - operating F-15I
102th Squadron ("The Flying Tiger Squadron") - operating A-4 and various trainer aircraft // Flight Training School
Aerobatics Team operating AMIT Fouga Magister
107th Squadron ("The Knights of the Orange Tail Squadron") - operating F-16I
123th Squadron ("The Desert Birds Squadron") - operating S-70
Air force Infantry School // light infantry to defend the IAF bases
Tel-Nof (8th air-base)
106th Squadron ("The Head of the Spear Squadron") operating F-15B/C/D
133th Squadron ("The Twin-Tail Knights Squadron") - operating F-15A/B/D
114th Squadron ("The Night Guides Squadron") - operating CH-53
118th Squadron ("The Nocturnal Owls Squadron") - operating CH-53
601th Squadron (Flight Testing Center Squadron) - testing F-15, F-16
Uvda (10th air-base)
115th Squadron ("The Flying Dragon Squadron") operating F-16A, AH-1, and more // Aggressor emulation squadron
Aviation School // for flight inspectors, controllers... not pilots.
IAF Officers School // after completing BAHAD 1
Sde-Dov (15th air-wing)
125th res. Squadron ("The Light Choppers Squadron") - capable of operating Bell-206
100th Squadron ("The Flying Camel Squadron") - operating Beechcraft King Air
135th Squadron ("The Kings of the Air Squadron") - operating Beechcraft King Air and Beechcraft Bonanza
192th res. Squadron ("The Hawk Eye Squadron") - capable of operating E-2
Haifa (21th air-base)
Technical School
IAF Technological College //main campus
Ramon (25th air-wing)
119th Squadron ("The Bat Squadron") - operating F-16I
201th Squadron ("The One Squadron") - operating F-16I
253th Squadron ("The Negev Squadron") - operating F-16I
190th Squadron ("The Magic Touch Squadron) - operating AH-64
Nevatim (28th air-base)
116th Squadron ("The Defenders of the South Squadron") - operating F-16A/B
140th Squadron ("The Golden Eagle") - operating F-16A/B
103th Squadron ("The Elephants Squadron") - operating C-130
120th Squadron ("The International Squadron") - operating Boeing 707 and SeaScan (SeaScan may be pulled out)
122th Squadron ("The Nahshon Squadron") - operating Gulfstream G550
131th Squadron ("The Knights of the Yellow Bird") - operating C-130
Palmachim (30th air-base)
124th Squadron ("The Rolling Sword Squadron") - operating S-70
160th Squadron ("The 1st Helicopter Gunships Squadron") - operating AH-1
161th res. Squadron ("The Northern Cobras Squadron") - capable of operating AH-1
200th Squadron ("The 1st UAV Squadron") - operating Heron UAV and maybe other UAVs
4 yellow stars should represent IDF CoS, 3 stars represent
Aluf, 2 stars represent brigadier general, single star for colonel (just like in IDF land-based structure). The one-and-only aluf in IAF is the IAF commander, so all groups should have only 2 stars. Air-defense command should have 2 stars, but other commands should have only one star. Air-base and air-wing are not exactly the same term here. Generally speaking, air-wing may have only flight squadrons and an airfield, but air-base definitely has more then that (maybe special forces, maybe special hangars, maybe SAM batteries...). Ramat David (1st air-wing), Sdot Micha (2nd air-wing), Hatzor (4th air-wing), Hatzerim (6th air-base) and so on should be kept. You can't say that 6th air-wing is located in Hatzerim airbase, because there is no 6th air-wing there - Hatzerim itself is a 6th airbase.
Hatzerim (6th air-base), Tel-Nof (8th air-base), Uvda (10th air-base), Nevatim (28th air-base), and Palmachim (30th air-base) definitely have more then just squadrons. They are headed by brigadier generals and should have two stars. All the other are air-wings headed by colonels and should stay with one star. Haifa (21th air-base) is an exception - it isn't an air-wing, it has no squadrons, I assume it is headed by a colonel. Ah, and there is another reserve airbase, called Machanaim, located in
Ben Ya'akov Airport. It has no squadrons, and probably headed by a colonel or less.
IMHO, names of cities and towns in brackets doesn't help to understand where do these airbases stand. Neither Hazerim nor Nevatim are in
Beer Sheva. Nevatim actually closer to
Dimona, and Ramon is far away from
Beer Sheva in a middle-of-nowhere in the desert. Palmachim is not in
Yavne, actually it is very much larger then town of Yavne (BTW, Palmachim itself has a spaceport! Worth to notice? We are talking about "Air and Space Arm", remember? :-) ). Ramat David is obviously much closer to tiny
Ramat David than to well-known city of Haifa, just like Hatzor is located near tiny
Hatzor, and so on...
122nd sqn. uses their specially modified Gulfstream aircraft for ELINT and AEW&C (not for transportation of troops or supplies). Worth to notice? 192nd res. sqn. is also for AEW&C only.
193rd sqn. helicopters are capable of landing on Israeli missile corvettes and perform in anti-ship / anti-submarine role. When they do so, they subordinate to the navy. Worth to notice?
601st sqn. (flight test center) doesn't necessarily tests (fly on) F-16s, but any IAF aircraft. Just keep it blank.
131st sqn. - typo (bracket).
133rd sqn. - typo (F-15A/B/D).
115th sqn. (opposing forces emulation squadron) has some ground installation for their role - modifiable fake SAM batteries or something like that (emulation of opposing forces' air defense).
Each active airbase (not necessarily each air-wing) has 3 additional no-fly squadrons: 'maintaining squadron', 'aviation squadron', and 'administration squadron'.
Hi, according to the feedback I get, airwings (and Haifa airbase) also has maintaining squadrons, aviation squadrons, and administration squadrons. Except 2nd airwing (it's a kind of area 51, nobody can tell what is there).
Flayer (
talk)
13:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
You know, Israel has never officially admitted to having nuclear weapons and also never seriously denied the claim. Personally, I strongly believe it is nuclear.
Flayer (
talk)
21:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, again. I still have some negative feedback about some details.
Those 7 reserve squadrons (125th, 144th, 147th, 149th, 161st, 254th, and 192nd) seem to be somewhere between totally inactive and completely disbanded, and in in any case no way tied to its former aircraft and bases, though they may be revived in any IAF base with any kind of aircraft that Israel would purchase someday. Therefore they might be presented in the structure image in some way (in a single branch, maybe) without mentioning its base or its aircraft.
It seems like only three air-defense regiment remained in the Air-Defense Command: Northern, Central, and Southern/air-defense school. Sorry about the mess.
Flayer (
talk)
21:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Excellent! I also been thinking, maybe the right image for 'aviation squadrons' would be the one with a radar-like icon. Not sure.
Flayer (
talk)
08:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Noclador! Wikipedia 0.7 will soon be out on DVD, and the IDF main article has been selected to be part of it, which means it will almost certainly include your detailed structure. I am asking, if you have time, to fix some mistakes. Here are the ones I found so far:
Manpower Directorate: The Medical Corps is now part of the Technological and Logistics Directorate, and not the Manpower Directorate
Manpower Directorate: There's no corps called NCO Corps, instead it is called Adjutant Corps (and Adjutant School)
Manpower Directorate: The Military Police School (Bahad 13) is a battalion-level unit, not a brigade-level. Prison Four and Prison Six are also battalion-level. The Investigations Unit (please change to either Criminal Investigations Division or Investigating Military Police) is a brigade-level unit, while the Yamlam is battalion-level. The Yamlat (traffic supervision) is between company-level and battalion-level (not sure what the international equivalent is - it has 2 companies and the commander is a major).
Regional commands: The Logistics Regiment (should be Logistics Support Unit) is reservist-only (should be clarified) brigade-level (one star) unit, and all units in it are only active during an emergency (war). There are three (3) Logistics Support Units in the Northern Command (Northern Golan - 5001st Unit; Lebanon - 5002nd Unit; Southern Golan - 5003rd Unit), one (1) in the Central Command (5004th Unit), and two (2) in the Southern Command (Gaza - 5005th Unit; South - 5006th Unit).
GOC Army Headquarters: Havat HaShomer is subordinate to the Education and Youth Corps, not Magal
Lastly, the commander symbols you used seem incorrect on the whole - you have 1 star for brigade-level, 3 lines for regiment-level, 2 lines for battalion-level, and 1 line for company-level. However, there are no regiments in the IDF, and there is a level between battalion and company. Some of the regiment-level units you listed are actually brigade-level (like the Logistics Support Unit), while some (like Sayeret Matkal) are battalion-level. I can help you with identifying some of those.
Please try to fix these :) if you can't do this anytime soon, let me know and I will try to emulate your entire chart in CorelDRAW and make the necessary changes.
Ynhockey, are you sure about the Medical Corps? Medical Corps was a part of AKA/AMASH, then in became a part ATAL/ALRAM, but ALRAM became ATAL back again and the corps moved back. Are you sure that Medical corps remained in ATAL? Adjutant Corps - agreed, MP - agreed, 6 new ALMARs - agreed, Havat HaShomer - agreed, medium/low level commander symbols - agreed (artillery brigades still called regiments :-P).
Flayer (
talk)
20:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain that it's part of Atal right now. Since the recent mumbo-jumbo in the IDF's organization though (Halutz vs. Ashkenazi - moving everything, then moving it back), it's hard to certainly confirm or source this. I could ask a friend from the corps if you don't trust my current knowledge :) On a side note, you are both invited to check my
IDF idea box - I am especially interested in Noclador's opinion, as someone who has not been personally close to the IDF. --
Ynhockey(
Talk)20:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I won't ask for a source. :-D 99% of the trash sites around IDF never heard of the recent moving/removing-naming/renaming mess. Now I'll take a look on the idea.
Flayer (
talk)
21:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I also found something. Desert recon. btn. and probably "Caracal" light infantry btn. use wheeled transportation.
Flayer (
talk)
20:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the update and the e-mail! There's still a problem with the Logistics Supprt Units - the ones I told you about are the only ones that exist (there are no non-reserve logistics support units), so putting them near the command's main box, and then putting another one at the bottom, gives the impression that there are logistics support units in the regular service under the commands. The 5005th unit is actually called "Southwest" by the way (but operates in Gaza); apologies for not making it clear earlier. By the way, you can send the PSD (although I was hoping for a vector format) to ynhockey at gmail dot com. Cheers,
Ynhockey(
Talk)18:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Due to the new placement for the Logistics Support Units, it seems like there are no space constraints, so you can add 'territorial' (i.e. Territorial Logistics Support Unit). On a side note, when I have time I'll check for you about other reserve units - can't remember them off the top of my head, but it's likely that quite a few other units on your chart are actually reservist. --
Ynhockey(
Talk)19:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
P.P.S. The Hebrew Wikipedia says that the Alpinist Unit is battalion-level. Of course, we can't be sure. However, if you don't have a source saying otherwise, I think HeWiki is believable in this regard. Also, the Caracal Battalion is surobdinate to the Sagi Territorial Brigade in the Southern Command. --
Ynhockey(
Talk)21:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Orbat graphics (again)
Hi again! You gave me a link a while ago to the legend to your OrBat graphics, but I can't find it in my talk archives :( can you please give the link again? Thanks! --
Ynhockey(
Talk)22:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I think you linked me to a PDF last time, but
APP-6A is pretty much exactly what I was looking for :) Thanks! I hope you don't take offense to this, but I'm trying to replicate your IDF graphic in vector format (no idea how you work on this stuff in raster format...), so that I'll be able to fix mistakes more easily (which I already found quite a bit of, doing some research). If you want, I'll send you what I've done so far. Cheers,
Ynhockey(
Talk)10:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
IDF Southern Command
I,
Flayer, hereby award you the IDF Wikipedia corps tag for your sincere devotion and your personal commitment to the mazy structural graphics of the Israel Defense Forces and the related subordinated units.
Flayer (
talk)
21:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, man!
I have some additional information about IDF Southern Command:
585th battalion actually belongs to "Katif" territorial Brigade.
366th Division's Signal Battalion is 373rd bat. ("Ra'am/"Thunder")
366th Division also has 10th res. armored brigade ("Har'el")
80th Division also has 7489 res. Art.Rgt ("Shaham")
Hi noclador! Sorry to be bothering you again, but I've resumed work on my IDF schematic (it's indeed taking much longer than I had hoped), and would like to include the navy and air force. Unfortunately, I still don't fully understand the color scheme you used for the IDF, and can't copy the navy part because I haven't found any of your OrBat graphics related to navies. Can you please tell me what color to use for naval formations? A full explanation of the color scheme would be more helpful, but you probably don't have time for this if it's not ready in a document. You e-mailed me some files a while ago, but they don't seem to explain the color scheme, just the App-6 symbols. Cheers,
Ynhockey(
Talk)09:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I followed your advice. Not much of a difference IMO, but maybe it did become more clear to those unfamiliar with the subject. Cheers! --
Ynhockey(
Talk)15:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)