@ ArtemisOfMars: In answer to the question you asked here about opening a SPI. Yes you can open a SPI into those users. InstantSnapFeedback has already admitted to previously editing as Salivasnapshot. You can find the diff at BLPN just after I outlined why I thought you both had a COI. If you can prove that they are not Braunden Reed you can get the RichardBrandonReed account blocked for username impersonation. If you can link all three you might be able to have an admin take some kind of action against ISF. My guess is you will need to go through WP:OTRS to avoid WP:OUTING issues.
Before you open the SPI you need to read and understand what evidence is needed then collect the diffs. Without diffs a SOCK accusation is a personal attack. If you have off-wiki evidence you need to go through OTRS.With ISF the SOCKing seems to be a smaller issue to me than the possible impersonation issue. JBH ( talk) 21:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
For both of you, since we seem to be communicating ok here, please allow me to make a comment on the SPIs. Both Wiki-culture in general, and I in particular, tend to be very forgiving of past transgressions on-wiki. The policy here is that blocks are preventative not punitive. We have editors here who have made major missteps and are still editing here. If you have been SOCKing admit to it, list all of your previous accounts on your user page and promise not to do it again (and don't). COI and even limited impersonation can be handled all that is needed is to admit it, say "sorry I did not understand the policies - I do now and I will follow them from now on". It is best, in my opinion, to ask an admin to block the old accounts and I would say it is required for an impersonation account. After that you are an editor in good standing and you will have gained credibility with the community because you backed away from the cliff.
ArtemisOfMars, I know you deny being a SOCK, that is what SPI is for. If they clear you I will apologize, that is why I did not accuse you and just let the accusation hang. InstantSnapFeedback when I asked if you edited as Salivasnapshot you said yes, that got you a lot of respect in my book so I will just ask; Did you edit under RichardBrandonReed?
Cleaning up the Polaroid Kiss mess be much easier with the two of you working with me than with than having out-of-policy editors working against me. So neither of you are taken aback I will tell you the next thing I am going to do is nominate Polaroid Kiss for deletion at AfD. It was my opinion from my first edit at BLPN that it was non-notable. I can not PROD it until the page protection expires but I will let you see the deletion proposal so you have a few more days to look for viable sources to improve the article. I spent a lot of time looking for good sources because I know this article means a lot to you and others but the sources just are not there. JBH ( talk) 00:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
The Polaroid Kiss article languished in obscurity until you brought it to BLPN because InstantSnapFeedback wanted to remove unsourced BLP content. The way they went about is was very wrong but what they asked was correct. Have you read all those blue links to policies? I do not type all that extra crap because I like the color blue, I do it so you can easily get to the information - so you can read it and understand it.
Let me be very very clear about something. With statements like "and if you delete the article, I, or anyone who knows the band, will write it back."
and
"Can we control the contributions of different users before they appear... "
from your French Wikipedia account you brought up
here at SPI you are setting yourself up for a
WP:BLOCK or ultimately even a
WP:BAN. That means that any edit you, as a person, under any account name or IP address make can be deleted by any editor whether it is a good edit or not. That would be a sad outcome and the way to avoid it is to work with the community not disrupt it. At
WP:AFD you can argue why my position it should be deleted is wrong. I spent several hours looking for good sources to support the article and I am convinced they simply are not there. Make sure you base your arguments on policy and reliable sources. Wikipedia is not a dictatorship it works on consensus. If the consensus is to keep the article then we keep the article no matter what I think.
JBH (
talk) 16:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
What I wrote on this article is official, so the truth. It's written everywhere on the official websites of the band.
Now you're threatening me? Telling me that I will be blocked or banned for telling the truth? That's good, do what you want.
And about the other user who placed the names of band members on their articles, nobody said anything about that. The edits are visible and can be read on the clean version of the article. Those who know the artists and the band knew that the info were right that's why they didn't edit it.
Oh, and the day, in a very very near future, Polaroid Kiss will become a huge band, you will remember all these "conversations" and see that I was right and you were manipulated by ISF and your "rules".
Now, ban me, block me, I don't care. ArtemisOfMars ( talk) 17:44, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
If you think "... the day, in a very very near future, Polaroid Kiss will become a huge band, you will remember all these "conversations" and see that I was right and you were manipulated by ISF and your "rules"."
you simply have not been listening. If that happened there would good sources and I would hapily help write the article.
The policies of Wikipedia are as they are being indignant about them serves no purpose. If you are indeed not a COI editor try taking all that passion you have and work to improve some more established bands like Apoptygma Berzerk, VNV Nation, Blutengel, Covenant, Funker Vogt or Icon of Coil until Polaroid Kiss "makes it big". Those are all established bands, in the same genre and, in my opinion, are also quite good. JBH ( talk) 19:20, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
@ Jbhunley: After not getting their way with the Polaroid Kiss page, Artifice of Mars has now decided to focus their energies into making malicious edits to the Sneaker Pimps page. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ArtemisOfMars InstantSnapFeedback ( talk)
Hello,
I'm afraid there have been a series of edits to this article as runoff from the Polaroid Kiss drama. ArtemisofMars edited out information regarding a band member that has never before been disputed (I am guessing it is because ArtemisofMars [whether as Brandun Reed/a proxy of Brandun Reed/other current member of Polaroid Kiss] is upset that they were told they needed more reliable sources to back up claims made on their Wiki page.
I edited back the information, and cited two references, which ArtemisofMars has again deleted and claimed photographs are not reliable sources, also claimed it was self-promotion (the reference website is not run by any member of the band and certainly no one is using it as self-promotion, so that is another made up claim on the part of ArtemisofMars). It would appear they would be quite reliable as they show this band member on stage with the other band members during a concert. It is not the only webpage with photos from that tour, but one that did have three different sources of photographs so it seemed strongest to cite.
I am guessing this has become more of a headache than anything for you, and the only reason I am bringing these edits to your attention is because it seems clearly "punitive" and "revenge-minded" on the part of ArtemisofMars. Basically: a user having a hissy fit over what has happened on their page and taking it out on another.
Thank you for your time.
It makes perfect sense that the Sneaker Pimps have a Wikipedia page as they have sold hundreds of thousands of records, had three major label releases, and have toured the world extensively. Polaroid Kiss still has yet to release a "debut" album, has never been signed to a major label, and have not played a live gig in nearly a decade. Any edits made by Polaroid Kiss Crusaders to the Sneaker Pimps Wikipedia page are questionable in motive at the very least.
Demeritus ( talk) 13:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Demeritus ( talk) 07:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
@ Jbhunley: I will be upfront and say last year, during a time when Brandun Reed had been proven a liar and con man, and had three musicians publicly cut ties with him within the space of a month, I edited the Polaroid Kiss page under RichardBrandonReed. I used that name because he had denied that was his full name at the time. But after that bit of childishness I never did any other edits, and created a new user name as I do not wish to post as RichardBrandonReed, as well as having no clue what the password for that account is anymore. The edit I made to the Sneaker Pimps page included references, and reinstating what had already been written and known to be true for years - undisturbed until ArtemisofMars decided to make changes. I am none of the other users included in the SPI and investigation will prove that. I have changed nothing on the Polaroid Kiss page during this, nor care to, as I believe they are and will continue to be quite obscure, even if their years-delayed album ever does manage to be released. But I do believe editing out a proven and known member of a still popular band, and changing a Wikipedia page that has had correct information on it for years out of malice, to be against Wikipedia guidelines. It would be better to delete the Sneaker Pimps Wikipedia altogether, rather than allowed it to remain butchered by ArtemisofMars, as the information listed on the Wikipedia page can be, and is easily found elsewhere online and in print. Demeritus
@ Jbhunley: Thanks for your help on the SPI. I contacted one of the admin (Mike V) to ask them to check what I did wrong and edit it so the request will appear on the main page. ArtemisOfMars ( talk) 21:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
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Too Much Advocacy and Too Little Neutral Point of View The Euromaidan article is extremely problematic. It fails to conform to the three basic article policies: (1) no original research, (2) neutral point of view, and (3) verifiability. The article covers a highly politicized issue on which there are several sides of the story, and none of the sides appear to comport well with verifiable facts. Recently I deleted two paragraphs that contained a narrative that advocates just one of the several non-factual versions of this issue. The text in question was completely unsupported by references. I also made two minor editorial corrections where I could see that point of view could be easily removed by simple word changes. For instance, the original text said "Many protesters joined because of the violent dispersal of protesters..." Calling the police action violent is pejorative and reflects one side of the story. Another side would say that the police were responding to a provocation and were seeking to restore law and order. I thought that a POV-neutral way of describing the incident would be to use the term "forceful dispersal" instead of violent dispersal. Similarly, a sentence beginning with "Escalating violence from government forces..." seemed to reflect the same point of view that is in contention. For the sake of neutrality, I changed that to "Escalating use of physical control by government forces..." In both cases, my edits maintained the undisputed description of the events, but without the pejorative words used originally. And, finally, in a later section the narrative discusses an action of the parliament. It said that the body "allegedly impeached the president." That suggests that there has been no authoritative determination made about whether the president was really impeached or not. But this is an instance where there is irrefutable evidence that the president was not impeached. I modified the text accordingly, and provided references to reliable sources. After having done all that, Volunteer Marek, citing "POV pushing, weasel-ing and removal of relevant text," undid all of my editorial corrections. In my opinion this article in its present state is an affront to the facts of the matter. It is a narrative of advocacy. The article needs to be more factual and less partisan. One of the challenges in achieving that is the unfortunate amount of media bias that has manifested in covering the topic. There are vast differences in media storylines depending upon which country's media is doing the reporting. This mainstream bias means that simply citing media reports will not establish something as factual. The media reports themselves would have to be fact checked before they could be relied upon. But if there is some reasonable way to move toward fixing the present article's problems, I'd be glad to help in a modest way. (Although, I must say that I have no appetite for going back and forth with individuals like Volunteer Marek who apparently wish to preserve a distorted description of the issue.) But are there others who might be motivated to join in to remove POV rhetoric from this article? If not, perhaps Wikipedia readers would be better served if this article were deleted entirely. Comments please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tikva2009 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC) Following the above Talk post of January 14, and having heard nothing in response to my invitation for comments on the policy violations after more than a week, it seemed to me that there was no controversy over the suggested deletion. Subsequently, I posted a notice for deletion. Then at 03:41, 23 January 2015 Jbhunley deleted my proposed deletion saying "No, Just no. This is an improper use of PROD." Jbhunley did not address the policy violations that I asserted. I also received a notice from Jbhunley that said, "The template you used is for non-controversial deletions only. I have removed it from the Euromaidan article. This is a reminder that Euromaidan is subject to the discretionary sanctions you were previously notified of. JBH (talk) 04:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)" Can someone tell me whether Jbhunldy is also subject to discretionary sanctions for deleting a legitimate deletion notice? Tikva2009 (talk) 04:25, 23 January 2015 (UTC)tikva2009 BoldItalic Signature and timestampLinkEmbedded file AdvancedSpecial charactersHelpCite == Too Much Advocacy and Too Little Neutral Point of View == The Euromaidan article is extremely problematic. It fails to conform to the three basic article policies: (1) no original research, (2) neutral point of view, and (3) verifiability. The article covers a highly politicized issue on which there are several sides of the story, and none of the sides appear to comport well with verifiable facts. Recently I deleted two paragraphs that contained a narrative that advocates just one of the several non-factual versions of this issue. The text in question was completely unsupported by references. I also made two minor editorial corrections where I could see that point of view could be easily removed by simple word changes. For instance, the original text said "Many protesters joined because of the violent dispersal of protesters..." Calling the police action violent is pejorative and reflects one side of the story. Another side would say that the police were responding to a provocation and were seeking to restore law and order. I thought that a POV-neutral way of describing the incident would be to use the term "forceful dispersal" instead of violent dispersal. Similarly, a sentence beginning with "Escalating violence from government forces..." seemed to reflect the same point of view that is in contention. For the sake of neutrality, I changed that to "Escalating use of physical control by government forces..." In both cases, my edits maintained the undisputed description of the events, but without the pejorative words used originally. And, finally, in a later section the narrative discusses an action of the parliament. It said that the body "allegedly impeached the president." That suggests that there has been no authoritative determination made about whether the president was really impeached or not. But this is an instance where there is irrefutable evidence that the president was not impeached. I modified the text accordingly, and provided references to reliable sources. After having done all that, Volunteer Marek, citing "POV pushing, weasel-ing and removal of relevant text," undid all of my editorial corrections. In my opinion this article in its present state is an affront to the facts of the matter. It is a narrative of advocacy. The article needs to be more factual and less partisan. One of the challenges in achieving that is the unfortunate amount of media bias that has manifested in covering the topic. There are vast differences in media storylines depending upon which country's media is doing the reporting. This mainstream bias means that simply citing media reports will not establish something as factual. The media reports themselves would have to be fact checked before they could be relied upon. But if there is some reasonable way to move toward fixing the present article's problems, I'd be glad to help in a modest way. (Although, I must say that I have no appetite for going back and forth with individuals like Volunteer Marek who apparently wish to preserve a distorted description of the issue.) But are there others who might be motivated to join in to remove POV rhetoric from this article? If not, perhaps Wikipedia readers would be better served if this article were deleted entirely. Comments please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tikva2009 ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC) Following the above Talk post of January 14, and having heard nothing in response to my invitation for comments on the policy violations after more than a week, it seemed to me that there was no controversy over the suggested deletion. Subsequently, I posted a notice for deletion. Then at 03:41, 23 January 2015 Jbhunley deleted my proposed deletion saying "No, Just no. This is an improper use of PROD." Jbhunley did not address the policy violations that I asserted. I also received a notice from Jbhunley that said, "The template you used is for non-controversial deletions only. I have removed it from the Euromaidan article. This is a reminder that Euromaidan is subject to the discretionary sanctions you were previously notified of. JBH (talk) 04:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)" Can someone tell me whether Jbhunldy is also subject to discretionary sanctions for deleting a legitimate deletion notice? Tikva2009 ( talk) 04:25, 23 January 2015 (UTC)tikva2009 |
Jbhunley, please explain yourself. Thanks. Tikva2009 ( talk) 05:31, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
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tikva2009 – — ° ′ ″ ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · § Sign your posts on talk pages:
Tikva2009 (
talk) 05:31, 23 January 2015 (UTC) Cite your sources: Cite error: There are
Edit summary (Briefly describe your changes) Preview of edit summary: (→Too Much Advocacy and Too Little Neutral Point of View) This is a minor edit Watch this page By clicking the "Save page" button, you agree to the Terms of Use and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL with the understanding that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient for CC BY-SA 3.0 attribution. |
To answer your question about the sanctions; Yes I, with my whole 1 edit in the area, am subject to the same discretionary sanctions. Being subject to sanctions and being sanctioned are two very different things. Again, I strongly suggest that you become familiar with Wikipedia policies and guidelines before editing in such a controversial area and that you approach editing in a collaborative manner. If you do this you will make a positive contribution to the encyclopedia and help shape the articles you work on. If you do not your input and point of view will be lost to us and no one will ever know the point of view you wish to document. JBH ( talk) 06:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Jbhunley: Thank you for the conciliatory note that you posted to my Talk page ( /info/en/?search=User_talk:Tikva2009#Follow-up). You are correct that I am unfamiliar with the process of making diffs. But I will look into the link that you provided. Certainly yesterday I had no intention of doing anything that would be perceived as being rude. So now we are left with the disposition of the two articles that I believe presently serve to seriously mislead the readers. They also appear to violate the basic article policies. I'm talking about the Euromaidan and Alexander Litvinenko articles. I tried and failed at inviting discourse and working toward a consensus. Are you willing to join in an effort rectify the currently misleading state of those articles? If so, perhaps you can suggest a reasonable and manageable way in which we may proceed. Thanks. Tikva2009 ( talk) 02:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)tikva2009
When talking about a user link their account like this: [[User:Jbhunley|JBH]]
If you want to address them you can use: {{ping|Jbhunley}} or {{reply to|Jbhunley}}
When you are replying to someone indent one level greater than the text you are replying to using : like this -
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To link a WikiPage enclose it in double brackets; [[Alexander Litvenenko]]
To make a diff get its URL from the article history or a user's contribution page and enclose it in single brackets you can add optional text after the URL and before the closing bracket.
My first edit [//en.wikipedia.org/?title=Arabic_language&diff=prev&oldid=415175260]
My [//en.wikipedia.org/?title=Arabic_language&diff=prev&oldid=415175260 first] edit
<p>Starts a paragraph. End a paragraph with </p><p>And continue writing another until you end it with</p>
And the last thing you should do is sign your comment with: ~~~~
The above text will look like this on the talk page:
When talking about a user link their account like this: JBH If you want to address them you can use: @ Jbhunley: or @ Jbhunley: When you are replying to someone indent one level greater than the text you are replying to using : like this -
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To link a WikiPage enclose it in double brackets; Alexander Litvinenko To make a diff get its URL from the article history or a user's contribution page and enclose it in single brackets you can add optional text after the URL and before the closing bracket. My first edit [2] My first edit
Starts a paragraph. End a paragraph with
And continue writing another until you end it with
And the last thing you should do is sign your comment with: JBH ( talk) 18:09, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Earlier I said it would be hard to bring the Russian perspective to these articles, essentially it comes down to reliable sources. Both articles reflect pretty well what the non-Russian media and much of the English language Russian media, that meet Wikipedia's RS criteria, has to say. Russian media has two big problems, 1) it is in Russian and very few Wikipedians speak Russian, this is not insurmountable but it makes things harder. 2) English language Russian media is perceived in the West as at best self-censoring and at worst a propaganda organ of the state, particularly when they are reporting on issues dear to the state or very powerful people. I am not saying Western media is neither of these things just that they are not perceived that way by most writers.
The next issue is both of these articles deal with issues that are the subject of massive propaganda and disinformation campaigns by both Western and Russian intelligence services. In the case of Alexander Litvinenko my opinion is that he was running a disinformation campaign on his own behalf and/or on the behalf of a third party as well. (But that would never go into the article that is what WP:OR is.) So the facts have been purposely muddled by several parties who are extremely good at creating 'halls of mirrors'. The truth of these matters will not be known for many years, if ever. All we can do is report what good sources say.
This brings be to the last issue. You need to carefully read Wikipedia's policies on Reliable Sources, Neutral Point of View and Original Research. Neutral Point of View (NPOV) and Original Research (OR), in particular, do not mean what you think they mean. Here is a quick overview but please read the policies for your self.
It seems that, apairently through no falt of your own, you ticked those boxes simply through being unfamiliar with processes here and other editors reacted based on that perception. I am very sorry about that.
What you need to remember is that Wikipedia has developed a culture and policies over the years to create a serviceable encyclopedia while still upholding the principal that "anyone can edit". This means that editors here are very wary of particular behaviors that have lead to disruption in the past and tend to be rather short when responding to those behaviors. Not an ideal situation but there is not much to be done about it other than try to remember to look out for the exceptions.
On to the Euromaiden article - First, I actually have no opinion yet on the use of the word violent in that context. I was not the person who reverted it, if it was reverted. I just saw it while looking through your contributions and used it as an example. Before making changes to the article I need to read it through carefully and also read through some of the archives (links are on the right of the talk page). I would strongly suggest you do the same. Likely many of the issues you see have been discussed in the archives and it is best to know where the land mines are.
Speaking of - here is at least one discussion in the archives on police violence. Let us carry on over at the article talk page as you suggested. It is likely we will disagree on much but maybe, if there is an ongoing conversation, some of the other article contributors will join in. JBH ( talk) 00:17, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding Eastern Europe, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.
Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.
This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.@ Tikva2009: I posted the Discretionary Sanctions notice to my talk page so people know I am aware of the ArbCom sanctions in the area we will be working in. (Before an admin can block a person under discretionary sanctions they are supposed to have been officially notified. Since you have already been notified and I am aware of the sanctions it is just a bureaucratic/procedural thing but fair is fair.) JBH ( talk) 01:14, 6 February 2015 (UTC)