Ireland Template‑class

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Edward (Ned) Daly is unique in this template for having brackets in his name. What about Patrick (Pádraig) Pearse, William (Willie) Pearse, Thomas J. (Tom) Clarke, Cornelius (Con) Colbert and Seán Mac Diarmada (McDermott)? On the last one, I was under the impression that McDermott was the accepted version of his name, but this seems to have changed recently. Was there a discussion about this somewhere? Scolaire 08:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC) reply

I just went by the names here and piped where needed. I've absolutely no objections to anything being changed, so make whatever changes you deem necessary. One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 08:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC) reply

I have opted for having no brackets and using the names by which the men were/are most commonly known. I have left Mac Diamada alone for the moment in the hope that someone else can enlighten me on the current consensus. Scolaire 09:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC) reply

There's a discussion here about it. I have no preference either way. One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 09:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC) reply

Thanks for that. I missed that discussion/move completely! I disagree with the change but there's no point stirring it up again. Scolaire 09:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC) reply

Re your question on my talk page, it might be worth adding "People sentenced to death but not executed." This would include, but need not be confined to, Eamon de Valera and Constance Markiewicz. Scolaire 09:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC) reply

While I've no objections to something like that, I'd prefer something more inclusive so that The O'Rahilly can be added to the template, in addition to some/all of the following, and possibly more: Eoin MacNeill, John Maxwell (general), Eamon Bulfin, Cathal Brugha, Liam Mellows, Seán MacEntee, Tomás Mac Curtain, Thomas Ashe, Martin Savage. One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 09:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC) reply

Possibly you want four sections, then. I would suggest first of all that "men executed" be divided into Signatories of the Proclamation (who were all shot) and "others executed in 1916." The other two sections then would be "central figures: Irish" and "central figures: British" – the latter to include the likes of Augustine Birrell, Matthew Nathan, Maj. Gen. L. W. Friend and John French, 1st Earl of Ypres as well as Maxwell.

One little hobby-horse of mine, though — no way should Michael Collins be in the template! Although people are going to insist on putting him in, he was strictly a foot-soldier in 1916.

Scolaire 15:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC) reply

Done. I've left out "central" as I felt it was slightly redundant plus my knowledge of the Rising isn't that great so I didn't want to overemphasise anyone that shouldn't really be on there, so feel free to change anything you think needs doing. As it's designed to be a navigation template I've left off Friend as he doesn't have an article, the template is designed to navigate to articles that exist not document every person involved. But obviously if an article is written he should be added. One minor thing, Birrell and Nathan's articles don't really make clear their significance with regard to the Rising, is this something you can possibly address? For that reason I'm wary of including the template on their pages at present. One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 16:33, 26 May 2007 (UTC) reply

I've put almost identical sentences into the opening paragraph of each of the two articles, saying that they were responsible for co-ordinating the British response. I have found, to my horror, that neither of them even gets a mention in the Easter Rising article! This is someting that will have to be addressed (along with a number of other things in that article). Scolaire 10:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC) reply

Any thoughts on the possible addition of Richard Mulcahy? One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 04:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC) reply

I was going to suggest him myself. He was Ashe's 2-IC in Ashbourne, although again he's missing from the article. Scolaire 07:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC) reply

Added him. One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 07:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC) reply

Charles Carrigan? Not sure how prominent he was, but we have an article on him. One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 05:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC) reply

Never heard of him, I'm afraid. Definitely doesn't belong on the template. Scolaire 06:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC) reply

Eamon Martin seems slightly more prominent? One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 18:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC) reply

Not a name that immediately springs to mind. I would suggest waiting to see how the article pans out, then we'll have a better idea if anybody else needs added. Scolaire 06:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC) reply

Could we get a look-in for adding Kit Poole? He's become quite a prominent figure in recent developments in the history of the ICA being names as one of its leaders Saxisonfire 23:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC) reply

At the risk of expanding the template still further, do we need Irish Volunteers, Irish Citizen Army, Irish Republican Brotherhood, British Army and Royal Irish Constabulary adding? One Night In Hackney ₃₀₃ 15:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC) reply

I'm inclined to say no. Leave it with just people. Scolaire 17:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC) reply

As I have stated on the relevant talk pages, I believe these two name changes were a mistake. The following books, most of which are listed in the bibliography of the Easter Rising article, all give the men’s names as “Tom Clarke” and “Seán MacDermott”, not “Thomas Clarke” or “Seán Mac Diarmada”:

• Max Caulfield, The Easter Rebellion, Dublin 1916
• Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: The Easter Rising
• Michael Foy and Brian Barton, The Easter Rising
• C Desmond Greaves The Life and Times of James Connolly
• Robert Kee, Ireland: A History
• Charles Townshend, Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion
• Seán Mc Mahon, Rebel Ireland
• Annie Ryan, Witnesses: Inside the Easter Rising
• Kathleen Clarke, Revolutionary Woman
• Desmond Fitzgerald, Desmond’s Rising

The last three are especially important as they are the words of the people who actually knew and worked with these men. Kathleen Clarke was married to Tom, and a close friend of MacDermott. The only time, apparently, that they used the names “Thomas J. Clarke” and “Seán Mac Diarmada” was when they signed the Proclamation. Strangely, Patrick Pearse, who also signed his name in Irish, has never been referred to in English as “Pádraig Mac Piarais,” although he was referred to for many years as “Pádraig Pearse.”
For these reasons, and because I am involved in an effort to improve the Easter Rising article, I propose to change these back to the original names. Scolaire 14:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC) reply

Tom Clarke, but not Seán Mac Diarmada, has been renamed following a request at WP:RM. Scolaire 17:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC) reply