Would be it be considered relevant to add a section on the flow of resources and labor through imperialism, unfair treaties, and genocide (either through murder, disease, displacement or economic hardship). Exploitation and bigotry (racism, anti-Semitism, the Holocaust, persecution of homosexuals, religious conflict) should also be included.
Canislupisbarca ( talk) 15:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The original was something like "Humanism, Secularism, Rationalism and Empiricism, as opposed to traditional Catholicism and Protestant Christianity", someone changed it by "Humanism, Secularism, Rationalism and Empiricism, as opposed to traditional Catholicism and Protestant Christianity", and think that's incomplete, and doesn't show the full nature and motivations of these tendence and movement, nowadays so influencial in our societies, and being an important factor of reducing any dependence from traditional religions, and Catholic and Protestant Christian moral, dochtrines and autorities, which plays an important role among free-thinking and scientist community and its develop and exchanging of new and revolutionary ideas. If there is a reason for someone to contradict this, or considere this wrong, please, state it here, exposing your reasons before completely changing what previously written, or, if you can, "add" or "contrast" new information, rather than erasing and misinforming the one stated. I've made some clarifications at the end of the statement, to clarify the point, and to avoid further doubts and polemics, so the final version, as I've left it, would be:
signed DeepQuasar
Someone modified and set this: "Humanism, Secularism, Rationalism, Empiricism, in one hand, as well as traditional Catholicism and Protestant Christianity religious and moral doctrines, on the other. These new ideas may appeare to be in opposition later were partly adopted by church.". I've then again found it too vague or inexact, hiding the true spirit of the new ideas, and a endless debate or opposition from or toward the old ones, that had lasted until nowadays, of course, not making impossible for a part of them to merge, specially that critic or progressive sector into churches and religious communities; as well as a part of the new ideals supporters didn't got fully against the old ones (but another part did). I want to express such more complex situation, such duality, that have formed a part of our Western societies or culture, in a way or other, until nowadays. So, if you considere it valid, I add this, respecting the old puctualizations: "Humanism, Secularism, Rationalism, Empiricism, in one hand, as well as traditional Catholicism and Protestant Christianity religious and moral doctrines, on the other. These new ideas appeared in opposition to the religious and moral preeminent doctrines and lifestyle in society, setting the basis for a new critic attitude and open questioning toward them among various progressive sectors of society, favouring freethinking, questioning of Church as authority and its traditional immovilism, resulting into an open-minded and reformist spirit inside, through ideas such as Liberation Theology, that partly adopted these currents, and secular and political tendences such as Laicism, Agnosticism, Anti-confessionalism, Materialism and Atheism, outside, among most critic sectors, increasingly influencial in society in our days." (increasingly influencial, maybe more in European continent than in other regions, if you agree that) signed Avinash kumar
I've made some impliations in content and background to the part referring to 'Similarities', in 'Contemporary Western culture', that was too brief, simplified and poor. I've also clarified some concepts, and added some current debate, referring to Democracy as 'preferred forms of government'. I paste here the complete paragraphs that I've added information to, the way they'd look after doing so, in their final form:
«Western cultures tend to emphasize the individual, as resulted from a large influence derived from romanticism. However, most of Western societies have traditionally been, and often keep being, at some degree, socially collective, giving a major importance to social majority traditions or tendencies (such as customs, protocols, believes or fashion), that often tend to be prescripted over minority or individual ones, specially when hardly divergent, what can at times derive on ways of intolerance, prejudices and social exclusion. In general, western cultures tend to emphasize consensus over any kind of minority or individual solution. This has developed, in a further stage, into democratic ideas, that, added to typically romantic individualist and liberal ones, have merged into some major, increasing degree of respect and tolerance toward differences (especially in thought or opinion), understood as a matter of diversity, rather than as a source of threat or conflict, and coming even to respect for other cultural realities, and interest for them to be studied and learn from, driving to new academic tendencies, as well as subcultural and countercultural ones, such as orientalism or New Age.
The preferred forms of government in western society are multi-partyist parliamentary or congressional systems, frequently referred to as Democracy, which also favors, through liberal ideas, the concept of individualism, as well as some sort of majority consensus when coming to adopt collective decisions. These systems are, however, becoming increasingly questioned and criticized by some sectors of society, concerning a debate around whether they are or not actually democratic. Some of the points to think this are that most population get no effective access to power, but just a chance through vote to decide or change the party or branch that will instead, that generally tends, as it approaches to power, to seek for its own interests rather than interests of people who have voted them, that they say to represent, so nothing actually guarantees they'll excercize power in the way it was promised or expected; plus the fact that decision of the part resulting higher in number (especially in a referendum) tends to impose over those or that one of that part which isn't, so it would actually become some kind of 'dictatorship', or despotism, from a part of society over other, without that last one being represented when final decision adopted. Due to these reasons, these critic sectors of society tend to bet for some kind alternative system which implies some further or real degree of accessing and participation of population in power, as a matter of 'real democracy'. Common criticisms to these points are that they can be non-realistic or utopian, or that they require some further degree of social consciousness of compromise, implication, responsibility and 'collective leadership', that has not been yet developed by most of society who should take part into it.»
I've changed "economically collective" for "socialy collective" as I understood it was what meant to be, or made more sense, when referring to cultural issues; otherwise, I would thank for it to be explained what it was meant by "though some societies are or have been economically collective", because it's not a clear statement, but questionable. If it was referred to the 'political/economical infrastructures' typical from soviet systems or socialization processes, I think it's a different issue that would fit better in the 'political paragraph' (second), than cultural one. signed by DeepQuasar
Also the information under section "Beyond art and politics" is very progressive but probably should be moved under the title "Liberalism". However one agrees with what it states, these qualities are rather universal but not nesessarily "Western". One should look at what UK prime minister says and does to understand that stating these qualities as "Western" are at least doubtful. And is G.W.Bush the man of the Western culture? Hmm. Maybe we shall stop generalizing things and shall start to look at people according to their individual merits...
The different complaints presented above all make sense to me, and all seem to have some merit. The conflicting visions of what an article on Western Culture ought to be both seem correct. This leads me to suppose that the article needs to be split in two separate articles:
It seems that the issue about points of view is wrapped up with the differences between what a "Western" point of view was and what it now is, both of which are muddy issues anyway. I'm not sure how to deal with how is over here as opposed to over there, where-ever "here" and "there" might be, but then and now might be fixable by a split. Tom Lougheed 19:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I really believe the worldview tag posted on the talk page should also be put at the top of the article itself. Readers should be informed that this article is potentially biased before they read it. The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake { Prophesize) 02:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't agree with the recent deletions. It seems like a violation of the Npov#Pseudoscience rule. To make an article npov, all povs have to be included without making a judgement. Michel Foucault had a very clear view about the western culture and he is very popular around the world. It is not for nothing that his article became featured due to the enthusiasm of the editors who contributed on his page. Also, I think that Edward Saids view about the west should be kept into this article. My opinion is that a right-wing purge has occured to this page. I hope that future changes will be made after a debate in this talk page. I suggest that the recent deletions should be reverted.-- Daanschr 14:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have no problems with the deletions in the introduction.
Foucault was (besides philosopher) a historian, so i think that his view should be in the history of western culture. Edward Said 'sharply criticized Western scholarship of the East', to quote the introduction of his article. You deleted his views on the difference between east and west.
I will add some references as well.-- Daanschr 15:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The intro is better indeed.
Here is a summary of your last edits [1]. you deleted all references to east west differences from the description. There is no reference to Said, but the text refers to orientalism, which was critizised by Said. I think that the deconstruction of the term western should be kept into the article.
I don't agree with you about Foucault. My pov is that the text of Foucault and Elias should be kept entirely. I don't know exactly what you mean with the right place. Many people here on this talk page have complained about the overemphasis on western achievements throughout the ages, but they didn't delete the edits.-- Daanschr 17:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
A sentence in the wikipedia article of Norbert Elias is: Elias traced how post-medieval European standards regarding violence, sexual behaviour, bodily functions, table manners and forms of speech were gradually transformed by increasing thresholds of shame and repugnance, working outward from a nucleus in court etiquette. The internalized "self-restraint" imposed by increasingly complex networks of social connections... The word discipline hasn't been mentioned in his article, but these sentences are referring to it. It would be strange if it isn't mentioned in one of his books as a main theme.
I have the impression that you (DonSiano) are not an expert on these subjects, since you didn't know anything about Said. I think it is not appropriate to delete edits based on the main theme of worldwide famous writers, while you don't know about them. Both Said, Elias and Foucault have written about the western culture and not something else, so it would be good to include them into this article. I will search for some footnotes, to make the claims stronger.-- Daanschr 09:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Military drill is a Dutch invention. I am Dutch, so i am very proud of it. I learned it during a introduction course of military history on Leiden university. The Dutch were rebels of the Spanish empire in the late 16th century. The Spanish had an at that time invincible army, which was much larger then the Dutch forces. Prince Maurice of Orange, commander of the Dutch army decided to use everything to led the Dutch freedom and the protestant religion survive. Many scientists of Leiden University helped him in his attempt to create an army that would defeat the Spanish. They read old handbooks from the Greek and Roman antiquity and tried to adapt the knowledge into the time of musqeteers and cannons. The Dutch army became a proffesional army, meaning that it trained every day and tried out all kinds of new tactics, which were made up by Maurice and his brother and by scientists. This was a new practise, nobody before them trained an army all year long. Before prince Maurice, shouting was used at the onset of a battle to get rid of the fear. After prince Maurice shouting became a regular part of military drill. He also introduced parading on a daily basis. The Dutch tactics were succesful at the Battle of Nieuwpoort and in the campaigns of Gustavus Adolphus. After Gustavus Adolphus, it was taken over by all european countries, especially the Prussian discipline is notorious, which started after the continuous pillaging of neutral Brandenburg by both protestant and catholic armies during the Thirty Years War.-- Daanschr 10:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
3,000 British troops defeated 50,000 Bengali during the Battle of Plassey, this is only one of many examples of western military dominance.-- Daanschr 09:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Beyond art and politics: Deleted line that stated homosexuality is an accepted alternative lifestyle and includes acceptance of homosexual marriage. This is a recent phenomena of controversy that is not wide spread enough (or sufficiently enduring) to list as an attribute of Western civilization. Particularly homosexual marriage, the first of which was performed in the Netherlands 2001, and which is legal only in 5 countries, and a couple U.S. states. It would be best if the issue were not mentioned at all, but if it must be discussed the wording should read something like: "Trending toward acceptance of homosexuality as an aspect of individual civil liberties." Darien_McLean 20:03, 2 October 2006
I don't agree with the reference with this title. The term decadence has been used from the onset of the western culture in 1500. The term was used to describe the vices elite culture and the lack of will to defend once country with military force in the 16th century. It has also been used to describe citylife in the 18th century after the attempts to get rid of the paupers was a failure. Romantics were decadent on purpose. The 19th century saw the birth of the decadent movement. It would be silly only to mention decadence to describe the contemporary western culture. It could be that it has been described in this book, but the version 'dawn to decadence' implies that this is not the case.
Since i have the impression that this discussion will take on longer, it would be better to analyse the npov rules in order to be sure that we will come to an agreement. Important is to come to a majority scientific worldview. That will be impossible with this topic. So, we have to consider what could be considered as the majority scientific worldviews.-- Daanschr 18:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I will edit an introduction to the book, to get the bias out of it in accordance to the Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Attributing_and_substantiating_biased_statements policy.-- Daanschr 09:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Aren't civilization and culture overlapping terms? In my opinion they are at least to such an extent connected that it is impossible to have non-overlapping pages. It would also put some defining characteristics, which are currently disputed, in a context. Sijo Ripa 07:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
(Reply to: Daanschr 13:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)): Civilization isn't or doesn't have to be larger or different than culture. Civilization is always about a specific culture. For instance, when Samuel P. Huntington divided the world into civilizations he named N-America, W-Europe and Australia and New Zealand the "Western civilization" and you call the same area "Western culture". Huntington also added that it was possible that the Latin-American and the Slavic-Orthodox civilizations (and even Turkey) could become part of this Western civilization (or already are) as they are to a very large extent similar to Western civilization. This is then again similar to what others call the definition of "Western culture". Therefore, it depends on the definition one uses whether it can be one page. --Describing the "Western culture" and the "Western civilization" will always be POV, as there is no consensus about which countries should be included in either one of them (if the terms are already different). Therefore I think it would be better to have one consensus page, which highlights the evolution and the different definitions and can link to subpages for more detailed discriptions/geographical or timebound subcultures. For instance: "Western civilization (Ancient)", "Western civilization (Middle Ages)", "Western civilization (Colonization)", etc. and contemporary "European culture", "American culture", etc. --A last note: I think the Western cultural world ("civilization") and the Western political world (political, economical and military "cooperation": NATO, ANZUS, EU, etc.) are different. However remember that you can fight wars or eradicate eachother (WW I, WW II, etc.), and still have a similar culture. Both "worlds" should therefore not be confused. Sijo Ripa 20:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Western civilization could become a disambiguation page, linking to both Western culture and Western world. Maurreen 15:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the statement that "Japan has largely adopted Western culture." I find this at best an extremely superficial and simplistic "observation" and at worst an ethnocentric overgeneralization. The fact that people of Japan drive cars or wear suits only proves that there has been some material cultural transference. Americans literally eat tons of maize, tomatoes and potatoes. Have Americans "largely adopted Indigenous Native American culture?" I suggest you ask someone from Japan what they think of your statement. In my experience, Christianity, a fundamental and basic element of Western Civilization is still foreign to the average Japanese person from Japan. Shinto and Buddhism are preeminent. People of Japan speak Japanese, primarily eat traditional Japanese food, and write using the (originally Chinese) system that has been used in Japan for over 1000 years. Where is the "largely adopted Western culture?" The example given above regarding an adopted Chinese writing system is an excellent example. Japan has adopted technology and methodology from many places. And they made it just as Japanese as anything else they do. I have edited the picture caption accordingly.-- AnthroLibrarian 01:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this goes to show the difficulty in defining "Western". Is Australia "Western?" Not geographically. Culturally though, Australia is quite similar to the United Kingdom and is therefore normally thought of as Western. How about Bolivia? Geographically it is “Western” but culturally is quite different from any European culture normally thought of as "Western."
Saying that the majority of Western Europeans are agnostic or atheist is rather hyperbolic, so I just changed "the majority of" to "many" - it is certainly not a majority of the %s cited are accurate and indicadive of a trend across the whole area. It is, however, a VERY significant minority. LupusCanis 13:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
This article makes several mistakes. I'm taking out information that I feel does not apply to the western world defined as "cultures of the people of European origin and their descendants". If someone wants to reinclude the information with a quality citation, I won't object. Most of the cutting is from the "Beyond art and politics" section.-- Dr.Worm 02:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Feminism and the rights of homosexuals have absolutely nothing to do with socialism and to link them in a single sentence is very misleading.
I tend to think that the whole point of view of the so-called "western culture" seems very confusing and oriented in a American-centred point of view.
The basic confusion is, in my opinion, as it is made in usual language between "western culture" as refering to European christian cultures (with the huge cultural differences, like beetween latin/catholic-based cultures and Anglo/Protestant-based cultures for exemple) with "modernity" (social modernity, technological modernity, fashions, etc.) and with "American civilisation". I think that in the USA these three concepts overlap and make the American society. The consequence of this overlaping is that from an American point of view (in this article) a lot of characteristics which are basically American, or caracteristics which are modern societies caracteristics are all put in this whole "western culture" group. As if all of these elements were basically common traditional elements of all western countries; Which is completly wrong. A lot of these caracteristics (such as consumerism, lost of honor codes, society oriented to personal development and material improvement, nuclear-family based society, etc. Are things that were completly inexistant in most western European countries only 40 years ago. I'm from France, my parents were born in a society which was part of the western civilisation since thousands of years, but without a lot of these tipical things of the "modern civilisation". It was before the modernization/Americanisation of the sixties (and excuse me also the tem "americanisation", because it was also in big part made with cultural things of American origins, musics, fashions, etc.)
I thing that calling these "modern global culture of American origin" "western culture" can be very confusing because it is not basically a caracteristic of all countries of western culture (even in western Europe a lot of people continue to live following a more "traditional way of life (which is western by the way)".
This confusion with of the two different concepts can lead some "sociologists" such as huttington to draw maps of "civilisation" made on an exclusive USA's point of view, in which "western" means more or less "in the sphere of influence of the modern American civilisation and way of life". which would mean that to be "western" a country is supposed to be rich, democratic, consumerist, practicing all these modern values, enjoying "international" fashion such as hip-hop culture or fast foods and leisure parks, etc. Which would mean that all the countries that does not share these "modern" caracteristics are not supposed to be of "western culture", which is of course wrong. Myself I am shoked to see that latin-America is excluded from huntington's "western civilisation", since these countries, despite being generally poor, share much more of lot of traditional values and cultural caracteristics that are present in my own western country than in the USA, through the latin herency and the catholic values.
I am also disturbed with the confusion wich is made between "modern civilisation" and the Greco-Roman civilisation. If Grego-Roman was one the the foundations (bringing christianity with it) of the European civilisation, it was not the only one. Germanic civilisation for exemple is another, especially important for northen European civilisation, which have developped their own version of christianity, quite different from the Roman catholic one. But put Greek and Roman civilisation as the fathers of the "modern consumerist civilisation" is just wrong; These civilisations have influenced much more the mediterranean Europe (which curiously is less "westernized" (in the "modern" meaning), or is since less time. Which is the symbol of western civillisation and which has more link to greco-roman world: the modern the "fast-food", or the Italian "slow-food" ? The problem is, with all the confusion with the term "western culture", when thinking of westernization most people would think more "fast-food" than the traditional family social meal of the mediterranean regions. Another point is that linking the "modern western culture" with "greek" herency, is too forget that greek civilisation can be as much a point of reference for European culture than for eastern mediterranean cultures. Especially for the arabo-muslim civilisation who took a lot in greek (and Roman too) culture, wich was present ont he mediterranean regions before the arrival of the Arabs. Greek philosophy, Greek science astronomy, poetry, mathematics have been one of the main foundations of the Islamic civilisation. The Greco-roman urbanity and architecture (introverted patio-based architecture, baths, etc) had also much more influence on islamic cities than on European ones (especially on north American and northern European ones). we could find much more other exemples.
I think the whole concept of "western" has become too much incaccurate in its modern meaning that the role of an encyclopedia (especially an international and global one) is precisely to stop the confusion and should be less American-centred. This article should avoid to use the word "western" in the cold-war political meaning and in the same time put the accent just in the historical meaning that include European cultures, and explain why it is hasardous to use "western" as synomym of "modern societies".
I discovered that personal freedom is continuously deleted from the list of Western culture#Beyond art and politics. In the netherlands, personal freedom is the primary value. This means that the central value of one of the countries of the western culture apparently doesn't belong to this article.
Last years i am getting more and more the impression that the western culture doesn't exist. At the moment the two main cultures mentioned in this article are seperate. I am talking about the American culture and the European culture. There are several reasons for thinking that the American culture and the European culture are very different. 1) Europe is secular and America christian, 2) Europe is in favour of international cooperation personified in the European Union, and America is in favour of schisma and war, 3) America likes to break international law and international agreements and Europe want to uphold these old traditions of the western culture, 4) America has an anti-social policy of exploiting its poor population, while Europe tries to be humane to those who live in Europe, 5) America tries to control the entire world by filling everybodies minds with irrational fears, while Europe is in favour of letting reality speak for itself through science and act upon it politically, 6) America thinks that politics is only about money and power, while in (Northern) Europe, politics is primarily for helping the common people and society, without having a ratrace for survival. Therefore, i request that this article should be merged with Western World. I don't belong to a culture that includes the United States of America.-- Daanschr 14:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
It was wrong indeed that far-right political parties were treated with disrespect. This has considerably changed though. Geert Wilders, Rita Verdonk and Marco Pastors are respectable members of the political community. Minister Rita Verdonk is trying to solve the immigration problem, thereby actively helped by Ahmed Aboutaleb. This is unique in the world, i guess, that someone like Verdonk can get such a level of respect. It is not possible in Belgium that Filip Dewinter becomes the minister of integration and is able to solve the problem of integration thereby helped by a prominent member of the most difficult groups of immigrants.
In the USA this would be completely impossible. There the politics estranges itself from the population, trying to rule by cheating and lying. No wonder that that country is suffering from a major disillusionment. Despite being left, i am confident with the Dutch politics, and i assume that the right and even the far right is confident in my country as well. A major difference between Europe and the USA is that Europeans try to solve problems by talking and trying to understand eachother, while Americans, especially the Republicans try to solve problems by creating unnecassary fears, suspicions and by lying and cheating. This kind of policy considerably reduces personal freedom in the USA. As John Stuart Mill wrote, people shouldn't be able to sell themselves into slavery.-- Daanschr 20:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
There were nice graphics on crime and immigrants in the newspapers. It was very clear that the Antillian and Moroccan immigrants represented the largest amount of criminals and the Dutch ethnic population the least. It is also known that the muslim population takes many brides and grooms from their native countries. Especially the male muslims do this, because they think that the female muslims in the Netherlands are too independent.
Nowadays, all politicians in the Netherlands need bodyguards, which is not surprising given the many death threats from both the left and the right.
Minister Winsemius of housing said that the immigrant problem is about to explode in the same way as in France, so emergency measures have to be taken to turn the tide. At the moment the borders are closed. Only refugees are excepted.
Verdonk may be soft in your view, but in the Netherlands she is regarded as too hard. The VVD was split in two camps regarding the treatment of immigrants, which nearly destroyed this political party. Verdonk lost her election to Rutte, which can give you an indication that the kind of language she uses is regarded as negative by a considerable amount of conservative liberals. The CDA had problems especially with the treatment of immigrants thanks to the policy of Verdonk. The whole CDA department of the province of Friesland threatened to split if the top of the party wouldn't implement a more social policy towards the poor and the immigrants. Prime minister Balkenende had to hurry to Friesland and other parts of the country to try to keep the party from falling apart. D66 was part of the coalition government, but left only because of the anti-immigrant policy of Verdonk. Now, D66 tries to fight as best as it can to marginalize Verdonk and other anti-immigrant politicians. Wilders and Pastors can only get 5 seats out of 150 at least.
A poll on the opinion of the Dutch population has proven that more then 2/3 of the populatian wants to make an end to the discussion on immigrants and want other issues to become more important. Filip Dewinter said about it that the Dutch population is tired and that the policy of Verdonk of the last years was good. Do you really think that Dewinter is a radical when he says something like that? The Belgians should end the cordon sanitaire and except the opinion of a million Flemish. For me, discriminating rascists is a kind of rascism in itself.-- Daanschr 10:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I think your change of the article is right, but only partly. The economy of the entire western world has not grown as much in the last 30 years as it did in the 1950s and 1960s, so a more liberal (instead of socialist) economy had to be implemented. However, you are right that former left-wing people are now voting right-wing due to the immigrant problem. At the moment i still vote left, but i am doubting wether i should vote Eén NL at the moment instead of Groen Links. You are partly right, but i think your views are too one-sided. There are more things in life then immigrants.-- Daanschr 10:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There is a expression among Dutch social workers that poverty can be smelled. There are many families in the Netherlands who can't buy toothpaste, shampoo, meat and can't pay the rent. whole families became homeless because they couldn't pay the rent. It wasn't possible in the 1970s, but it is today. This happens all over the western world. You are right that most of the Dutch society exist out of middle class nowadays, but most of them have to spend all their money for being able to live comfortably.
The shift to the right didn't happen from left-wing political parties to right-wing. The official left-wing has never ever won a majority in the elections, but the right-wing political parties were very moderate by tradition. Christian political parties were conservative in family values but divided in social-economic policy. The liberals were conservative in the social-economic policy and moderate regarding morale issues. The liberals supported the abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage laws of the 1990s and 2000s.
The shift to the right slowly occured through all the political parties. The Labour Party was extreme left-wing in the early 1980s but cradually changed position and supported huge tax cuts in the 1990s. 1992 was an important year for the beginning of strict regulation for immigrants. I know lots about it, because i wrote a paper on the Ghanaian community in the Netherlands. In 1992, a huge criminal organization was discovered who smuggled illegal immigrants into the Netherlands, who could easily become Dutch citizens. These immigrants had to take several kinds of welfare of the government. This got huge press coverage and the illegals were more and more marginalized from 1992 onwards. Morrocan immigrants became fanatic religious and started terrorizing neighbourhoods and haressed girls for dressing too naked.
In the late 1990s, a cultural shift took place, which started with left-wing politicians and left-wing comedians. Suddenly it became acceptable for left-wing comedians to make cruel jokes about immigrants. Left-wing politicians and journalists started giving attention to conservative thinkers with new ideas on ethics and morale. In 2000 and 2001, the integration of foreigners was an important agenda in the politics. The idea was that the integration was no succes and measures had to be taken, like making it is hard as possible for immigrants to come into the Netherlands. Even refugees had to have a very good story with all the paperwork correct in order to become a Dutch citizen.
2001 was the year when Leefbaar Nederland was founded. It was left-wing and wanted to blow the other parties away. What they were lacking was a good leader. They introduced the right-wing Pim Fortuyn, who made it into a huge party. Fortuyn said in january 2002 that the islam is a backward culture. He was ousted from Leefbaar Nederland and started a new political party, LPF. Leefbaar Nederland lost the election with only 2 seats, but LPF came into the parliament with 26 seats. Fortuyn was seen as a nazi by both the left-wing and the right-wing. He was killed by a left-wing extremist, still he could win the elections. At that time in june 2002, the anti right-wing spell was broken. Since 2002, it has become accepted for people to express anti-foreigner sentiments. I know that many left-wingers really don't like this, but it is true. Journalists treat all right-wingers with respect nowadays, even the neo-nazis. NOVA had a half hour long press coverage of the leader of the NVU, which was without any critics regarding his views.-- Daanschr 18:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
How are neo-NAZI's "right wing"? The NAZI's were socialists.
Are you sure? Who do you think collect Nazi memorabilia this days?
"An emphasis on technological innovation and science coupled with a belief in progress, and orientation towards the future, rather than on the past, such as ancestory and presumed glorious episodes in the past and, in spite of institutional and systemetic racial segragation in places such as the US and South Africa under Apartheid, there is relatively less tribalism and other ethnocentrism. [1]"
Does anybody else find this statement to be somewhat subjective at the very least, or completely ridiculous at the worst... I'm not sure any source can really verify that the "West" is any less 'tribal' or especially ethnocentric. If nobody disagrees, then I will leave the part about science and progress but will remove the rest as I am not sure it is verifiable enough to leave in an encyclopedic article. Basser g 01:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Basser. Also the information under section "Beyond art and politics" is very progressive but probably should be moved under the title "Liberalism". However one agrees with what it states, these qualities are rather universal but not nesessarily "Western". One should look at what UK prime minister says and does to understand that stating these qualities as "Western" are at least doubtful. And is G.W.Bush the man of the Western culture? Hmm. Maybe we shall stop generalizing things and shall start to look at people according to their individual merits...
I know this may sound a bit biased but technically speaking how much of western culture and achievements were made without influence from the Middle East? With the exception of the Grecco-Roman ideals, didn't most of the thinking of the Judeo-Christian values, Scientific advancements, social movements, business practices and other things originate from the Middle East? (think Moorish Spain and the history of European Jews as a couple of examples)
Also, when you think about the New World (the Americas) you can't really ignore some of the influences made by non-western cultures (such as the African techniques in music or Native Amerindian practices in Hispanic cultures) I realized that several people have already mention this about this page. I also believe that some things aren't essentially "western" in regards to the casual sex. Since the history between carious cultures are so intertwined, should this even be an issue or a case for a seperate article?
I read all the article but the funniest section was "Western scientific and technological achievements". :) My comment is that, because here is not a comedy site, someone should re-write whole article or at least this section.
I am not convinced whether popular historical terminology is relevant in this article, esp. regarding that it is a definite mistake to exclude Central Europe from the West as far as civilisation is concerned. In this sense, even Russia is probably to be considered as part of the West, as it has the definitive Greek/Roman/Christian heritage. The random nature of the political division is well demonstrated by the division of Germany or the separation of Estonia from Finland, which have a fair common share in culture and language.
If the statement is to remain, IMHO there should be a clarification suggesting that from the perspective of this article, there has never been a spectacular *cultural* border between Western and Eastern Europe. A separate article could discuss the finer points between Western (as in civilisation) Capitalism and Communism and their effects on culture. 81.182.216.192 21:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
"Beyond art, politics and sexuality" should be removed for the following reasons.
1. This section is very subjective. 2. All cultures believe and want progress and Human rights. 3. All cultures have a strong affiliation to the nuclear family.
Further, the contents of this section suggests that this section was added to reflect an American view point, a view that is not necessarily practiced in the USA. For instance, the very same people who believe in Democracy and freedom are the very same people who practiced slavery and segregation laws (Jim Crow Laws) and it was practiced as recently as 1968, which is less than 40 years from today. If we applied basic math, that is 192 years (from 1776 till 1968) of the 231 of years (from 1776 till 2007), which is, 83% of USA's existence, systematic (constitutional) segregation had been the way of life, which contradicts the principle of democracy, freedom and human rights. Further, prisons, such as Guantanomo bay, where suspects and minors are held without charges against them contradicts the fundamental principle of human rights. These acts are condoned by the people of the USA. Moreover, if we looked at the Greeks and the Romans, they were also a slave owning society, along with the Americans in modern time. Therefore, we observe a pattern in the belief of slave ownership and disregard for human rights among Western cultures. A society that believes in Human rights cannot have these value system as part of their culture and history.
"Attitudes to sexuality" should be removed for the following reasons.
1. Casual sex had always been part of the culture of India as evidenced by "Temples of Love" and literature such as Kama Sutra. Further, Middle Eastern cultures practiced casual sex for a very long time. Probably till the time of Islam.
Many other sections are also very subjective and should be cleansed to meet encyclopedic standards.
==I agree on the suggested removal--the section is is unreferenced, and doubtful to boot. DonSiano 13:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I would advise that this article on Western culture should be split into two sections, One section explaining the American culture and the other explaining Western European culture. I say this for the following reasons:
First of all the article does not concretely define what culture is and for most people, the definition of their culture is deeply rooted in their history and how the various episodes in their history has shaped their nation states. However, the Americas and Australia/New Zealand, do not have sufficient history to define a particular culture as their cultures are continuously evolving. The people who live in these new societies cannot really relate to the definition of culture as understood by people who live in established countries of Europe, Middle East, Asia or Africa. Therefore, they have a tendency to associate political system of these nations as their cultural beliefs and we all know through out history, politics of any given nation has changed from time to time. Politics and culture should be separate from one another.
Moreover, this article seem to have been written from an American point of view. The American culture is heavily influenced by the African, Native Indian and Jewish traditions. As a matter of fact, it is safe to say that the African slaves and the Jewish people combined to create what could be considered "American Culture". I have read this article over a period of time and found that for the most part, the African influence on American culture has been greatly ignored, while Yuri Gagarin has been incorporated into the Western World. I find this to be very strange. The only logical reason for this is from my point of view is that, in the USA, skin colour is identified as culture. So the American individual who writes on Western culture, defines culture in terms of Skin colour and thus includes Yuri Gagarin and excludes the African influence. Watching movies such as 300 would give you a better perspective on how an American views various people and their culture and thus an American perspective on Western culture.
This article is like a person of East Indian origin, who is born and raised in North America writing about "Indian Culture". We all know there is one "Indian Culture" in North America and there are many cultures within the political entity of India. A good example of would be a person of Indian Origin from North America visiting South India and asking the locals to cook "Tandoori Chicken". We all know that most people in South India would not know what Tandoori chicken is.
My question was: if you can call someone a Westerner, simply because that person was the first space traveler, a monumental achievement in human history, then why can’t communism be a Western European ideology? The fact is that Marx’s theories spread to various countries and they took various forms in different parts of the world should not be overlooked. Further, communism as an ideology is not all that young in comparison to Democracy as an ideology. In fact, social security and universal medicare that exist in most industrialized countries today are principles of Marxsim.
You asked a good question, “Would you say fascism is a pilar of Western culture?” I say yes.
Wikipedia defines Fascism as follows:
“Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, and religious attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism.”
Now let us look at the United States as an example. Despite the fact that most Americans would want others to think of America as a country founded on the principles of democracy and freedom, in reality it was a country that was developed on the ideals of slavery, the Jim-Crow laws and racial segregation. We may not like the truth, but I think we should accept the truth as is. The ghettoes in the US developed not because the people of Western European origins in the USA believed in the ideals of democracy, freedom, human rights, equality and justice but because of the tyranny, slavery, savagery, sadism and racism that they imposed on the black population. In 2007, police chase of black men in the USA is controversial not because the white policemen are so concerned for the safety and security of the black people, but because the white policemen’s view of serving and protecting the public is to spread xenophobia and hate towards Black population. A question that is repeatedly asked on the Democratic campaign trail is, “Is America ready for a Black president?”, a question that should never arise in this day and age unless in the post reconstruction era, the white people’s great American past time was to watch and celebrate Black men getting lynched under the pretext that they were trying to steal the White women. As a matter of fact, the Ku Klux Klan, in its hay days, had 15% of America’s population. The shear size of the clan speaks volume about the culture of the Western European people in the USA. So, as we can see, democracy and freedom are mere political concepts and not a cultural concept. For instance let’s say that tomorrow, the US adopted a totalitarian political system, the above described attitudes will not change, because that is the way that the US has developed. These attitudes are what we call culture. I am sure you’d agree that nationalism, militarism, anti-communism, corporatism and populism are pillars of the Western culture. You would also agree that race and race related issues have dominated the American society since its inception. United States also tries to unite people through religion. Born-again Christians are quite main stream in America. Would it be safe to say that American’s idea of Western culture is too be in a state of denial about their true foundations and the culture on the ground. This article has conveniently cherry picked the good things of Western culture and had denied the true of attitudes, practices and beliefs of the people, which most people who live outside North America would consider culture. Eilangko ( talk) 20:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
If we plan on writing articles on Western culture from an American view point, it is also imperative that we explain the "Culture of Fear" that is prevalent in the USA. "Fear of the Black Man", Fear of people living in far of lands and imaginary threats that Americans face on a regular basis has to be defining social norms and thus influencing culture. After all there are references to cold war in this article, isn't it?
The description and subsequent sections ommit reference Communism completeley. As we all know this ideology had great impact on our times. Further, in the "Western scientific and technological inventions" section, reference to first man going to space has been stated as a Westerner. Is Yuri Gagarin a Westerner? Does former Soviet Union fall under the Western World. If USSR can fall under the Western World, then how is it possible to ommit Communism as an ideology as having been originated in the West?
The section "Contemporary Western culture" should be expanded. Does Contemporary Western culture same as the Western culture of the 1500s. I do not think so. It has many elements of African and other cultures. Yet these influences are conveniently avoided in this article.
This section seems to have been drafted by someone ignorant of history - it would be tedious to go through each point, but not one of them is true. If cites can't be found, the section should be removed. PiCo 02:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Characteristic features of Western sexual morality:
* A strict legal requirement for monogamous and consensual marriage[citation needed] * An association of sex with love and because of this a belief in the idea of romance, romantic love and sexual love.[citation needed] * An expectation of marriage as a source of personal fulfilment through romance, rather than as a practical domestic arrangement[citation needed]
And nowadays, although not in the past:
* Reduced or no legal enforcement of social bans on adultery * More tolerance of homosexuality * A more casual attitude toward sex between unmarried persons (one night stands) * Greater acceptance of abortion
I agree on the suggested removal. It is unreferenced and does not meet the standards of an encyclopedia. Eilangko 16:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the most important concept that has truly been missed out on this article is that the belief in slavery in the Western society. If the Western culture is a by product of Greco-Roman ideals, it must me remembered that these societies were slave owning cultures. Roman economy heavily dependent on slaves. The new world, founded by the Europeans were nothing but slave owning societies and have had strong belief system in slave ownership. As a matter of Americas were founded on slavery. Despite the fact that this article places heavy emphasis on democracy and freedom as the corner stone of the Western culture and Westerner's as defined by this article as people who believe in the institution of democracy and freedom, those of us who live in these Western world very clearly know that the societies of the Americas, especially the United States of America has not developed along the lines of democracy and freedom, rather it has developed on the foundations of slavery and the Jim Crow laws (segregation laws.) Let's look at the example of Barrack Obama running for the US presidency. In year 2007, almost, all media outlets and general conversation among people is that, is America ready for a "Black" president? If the founding culture of United States was democratic, free and if the American society has developed along these ideals, then this question would not arise in Year 2007 either among the general populace or among the media outlets. However, if the foundation is slavery, belief in racial segregation and an entire society has developed along the lines of slavery and belief in segregation laws, then this would be the only question that would be repeatedly asked by the general poluace and media outlets in Year 2007. This clearly underscores the strong belief in slavery and exploitation of others among Westerners. Not only historical references point to strong belief in the institution of slavery, but modern social attitudes among Westerners point to strong beliefs in the exploitation of others. The social attitudes and belief systems in a country is called the culture of that country and ideas such as democracy, communism and capitalism are political ideologies. Thus, I believe, we should carefully review this article and try to explain the Western "Culture" and not the Western "Politics". Eilangko 17:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the section titled "Attitudes to sexuality". This section is unreferenced and does not meet the standards of an encyclopedia. Further, this section does not contrast the Western culture with other cultures and completely ignores human history. Most importantly though, this section has been in this article for a long time and would deceive people who read this article. Eilangko 14:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This sentence, "Therefore, the impact of "modernisation" and "modern" technology may not merely be "scientific" (that is, physical) but may possibly be closely linked with a certain culture, that of the West, such that without such technology, Western culture today would have been dramatically different from how it is known in actual historical and contemporary times." is unacceptable. It seems to be presenting a theory ("may possibly...) and is unacceptable for an encyclopedia. It is also ungrammatical or self-contradictory--"today"..."contemporary times. I'm therefore deleting it. DonSiano 17:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Isn't this somewhat impossible to define? It seems a bit hypocritical to classify capitalism and free trade as part of "Western culture," but then completely ignore totalitarianism (which was also a Western creation). North Korea, Vietnam, Saddam's Iraq, Syria and Saddat's Egypt all have either Nationalist Secular governments or a Communist government - all of these are Western government models. If we are going to say countries like Japan are Western because they are industrialized, then it's only fair that we include all fascist and communist states as Western as well?? After all, Fascism and Communism are both Western idealogies. The term is further complicated by the fact that Southwest Asia and North Africa would have both been considered "Western" during classical antiquity, even though today Westerners have disowned them both as "Middle Eastern." Similarly, Russia would have been considered "Western" all the way through the 19th century, even though today it has also been disowned as a "Non-Western" culture. Or an even more interesting example would be the Jews. The Jews, prior to the 20th century, were always seen as an "Other," yet today they are now considered "Western." I think this article does a fine job at cherry-picking the glorious aspects of Western culture, which, by no means, should they be belitted. Western civilization has been by far the most pivotal civilization in shaping the modern world, but it seems that this thread does a very good job at pretending "Eastern" cultures are irreconcilably different from the modern world, and so the only way they can modernize is by becoming "Western" (which is clearly a lie, and Japan is NOT Western). I could believe that South Korea and the Phillipines are Western. But you aren't going to be able to convince me that Japan, India, etc. are Western simply because they are industrial powers. Simply because a nation has been integrated into the world economy and actively trades with Western powers doesn't mean that they are culturally Western. As a side note, one of the pioneers of the MRI was an Iranian American, so it seems bizarre how that could be considered a "Western" invention. I don't necessarily think Western inventions are products of the culture, so much as they are a product of the wealth and education that have emerged within Western society ever since the Industrial Revolution. Obviously, most inventions prior to the Industrial Revolution took place in the East - that doesn't mean there was an intrinsic factor within Eastern cultures that allowed learning and innovation to thrive. Shouldn't the entire inventions section be separated into a different article focused on inventions within the Western World? Or an article on Western accomplishments? Placing it under a "cultural" article seems deceiving and inappropriate. Further on that... All European alphabet systems (Greek, Cryllic, Latin) are descendents of the Phoenician alphabet ("Middle Eastern" alphabet), and the European number system is of Indian origin ("Eastern" number system). Western innovation, from its very foundation, has been heavily influenced by the pre-Industrial Revolution accomplishments of Asia and North Africa. This article fails to touch on that. The point being, it is misleading to consider innovativeness and the hunger for knowledge as "cultural values." The hunger for knowledge is fundamental to the human condition, regardless of which "culture" one is a part of. 68.43.58.42 04:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
--On your "side note" on MRI, Damadian, whom I think you are referring to, was born in New York, of Armenian descent, educated in America and did his ground breaking work there, and is a Christian. Other contributors, two of whom won the Nobel Prize in 2002 for it, were all also Westerners. Its first manufacture, sales and use all took place in the West as well. Thus, it seems only reasonable to me to put it in a list of Western accomplishments. As for your other remarks, this is only an encyclopedia, which certainly requires an entry on Western culture. Like many articles in wikipedia it can be improved. DonSiano 18:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Section: Music, art, story-telling and architecture
I changed the following sentence from:
"Many forms of popular music have been derived from African-Americans' folklore and music during 20th and 19th centuries, initially by themselves, but later played and further developed by Americans..."
To:
"Many forms of popular music have been derived from African-Americans' folklore and music during 20th and 19th centuries, initially by themselves, but later played and further developed by White Americans..."
It seems to be logical to change it from Americans to White Americans as this section seem indicate that African-Americans are not part of the Western culture, however, the music that they developed is. Therefore, it is important to distinguish between Americans who are part of the Western society and who are not. Eilangko ( talk) 22:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I have added the sentence below to give a better picture to an audience, who may read this article. Since this article has been written from an American perspective, which I see avoids explaining the Western culture and places great importance on political systems such as democracy may mislead people from other parts of the world in trying to understand what Western culture is. Therefore, the sentence below would give others an insight into the psyche of the authors of this article and what their definition of Western culture is.
From an American point of view, the Western culture does not include, people who have some level of African, Asian or other non-European ancestry, except in the case, where a person with such ancestry may visually be appear to be closer to "European-Looking."Eilangko (talk) 17:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I changed the following sentence in the introduction From:
"...American culture, materialism, industrialism, capitalism, commercialism, hedonism, imperialism or modernism."
To:
"...American culture, materialism, industrialism, capitalism, commercialism, hedonism, imperialism, communism, Nazism, fascism, racism or modernism."
The article conveniently avoids communist ideology, the Nazi ideology, Fascist ideology and the high level of racism present in Western societies.
It would be useful to have a hybrid of this article and popular culture. Currently, there's no such article as Western popular culture, and yet there are many volumes of secondary sources written on the topic. - Harmil ( talk) 18:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I give up. Entering civilisation redirects you to civilization which entry begins with the statement, "A civilization or civilisation is..." This statement says to me that the two words are alternative spellings for a common term. The article goes on to use both spellings throughout without any differentiation of their meaning. In fact the contexts of the different spellings reinforce the implication that they are simply alternate spellings. I'm guessing that the variations reflect multiple contributors from US and British commonwealth editing the article.
O.K. So why then when I enter western civilization am I redirected to western culture while western civilisation redirects me to western world. The fourth paragraph of the western culture entry then goes on to make a statement, "The concept of western culture is generally linked to the classical definition of Western world." The reference to " classical definition of Western world" is a link to a curently non-existent section of the western world entry. I am now left wondering whether western civilisation actually is not a variant spelling of western civilization, but rather does actually refer to western world, whereas western civilization refers only to the western culture. Grapeguy ( talk) 02:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
In the definition it is said that the origins of western culture are feudalism and Christianity. If such, why the image of Socrates here?-- Dojarca ( talk) 18:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The western culture refers to the North Americas, not Europe. Therefore, I will be updating the 'lede' paragraph as we speak. Thank you! Viper55 ( talk) 10:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The opening text of this § is bolixed. Also this talk needs to be archived. Lycurgus ( talk) 09:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The "Western achievements" section opens with the words "A distinctive feature of the Western culture is its focus on science and technology".... the section proceeds to examine only the scientific and technological achievements of the west. Since the section only concerns science and technology, the section should be renamed as to reflect that. The current section title suggests that the section will account for, say, artistic achievements or philosophical achievements in addition to science.