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The way this is phrased is ambiguous, and does not reflect the phrasing of the source. In the source, it talks about "naive biology" as a field of study that is conducted by young children. This would translate to (naive biological) theories. The way it reads right now however, it seems to say naive (biological theories). Not only is this a gross misrepresentation of the source, it's does so in violation of NPOV. Starting the sentence with "more recently" is a clever lie designed to imply that those theories which rely on vitalism have largely been abandoned across the board, which is simply untrue (Ref: TCM, Homeopathy, Naturopathy). Further, the words don't add anything to the sentence.
I'm going to remove the "more recently" immediately, because it doesn't add anything to the article, and represents an inappropriate use of wikipedia. I'm going to leave the rest as is for a week or so, to see if anyone has thoughts, but if nobody does, I'm changing it to something along the lines of "Vitalism is common within naive biology (children's understanding of biology)" --Dove
Well, this is a bad article. Perhaps the worst ever. Tell me, did the writer[s] consider the possibility that the reader is interested in vitalism? Or in learning about the history and ideas of biological vitalism? No, of course not. What the reader hopes to find, when he types "vitalism" into the search box is yet more tiresome rants about pseudoscience, bioenergy, phlogiston, homeopathy, the definition of science, Popperism, falsifiability, Mesmerism, acupuncture, New Age, etc. - those hot topics skeptics like to think about when they are masturbating. What does phlogiston have to do with vitalism, I know not, but there is a nice fat paragraph about it here. But let us examine one of the very first statements of "fact" in this article:
It was argued that the essential difference between the two forms of matter was the "vital force", present only in organic material.
If the author knows of a vitalist who has claimed that crystals of urea or chunks of roast beef have "vital force", I would like to hear about it. Lionel Beale was a notable proponent of vitalism in the late 1800s (and I notice he is not mentioned in the article, nor are his opinions given, but no matter, we have Daniel Dennett!! What more need we?). Beale says (Protoplasm, 1874): The most earnest vitalist will no more deny that albumen may some day be made artificially, than that phosphate of soda may be produced in the laboratory. All he maintains is that the formation of albumen, &c., in the organism is not due to the same circumstances, or effected in the same way as would obtain, if it were possible to form it in the laboratory... It seems almost puerile on the part of opponents to what they term a vital principle to go on reiterating such statements...
It is an ill omen when an article about vitalism begins with an assertion that vitalists denied, and then ends with an assertion that vitalists absolutely denied...
Vitalism, or bioenergy, is often explained as being an electromagnetic(EM) field and is supported by the theory of quantum physics.
This is absolutely contrary to what biological vitalism was. "EM fields", bioenergy, and all that are physicalism. Vitalists maintained the diametric opposite position, that 'vital force' is not physical energies, fields, forces, etc. If there is a statement more opposed to biological vitalism than what is written above, I can't think of it.
I recommend that this article be split into two - an article about vitalism, and another article where interested parties can rave about qi, prana, UFOs, astrology, parapsychology, new age, Reiki, witches, goblins, witchdoctors, the Inquisition, Popperism, 'magical thinking', Hollow Earth, pyramid-energy, Kirilian fields, and whatever else they like. The first can be put up on Wikipedia, the second article can be tossed in the dumpster, or maybe put up on talk.origins. Korkscru 09:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems like "the humours" in the second paragraph should link to
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_four_humours
rather than the page on "
Humour"
It seems to me this article is mis-categorized. The thing that distinguishes this topic from science is the lack of the rigorous application of the Scientific Method, and a lack of of peer review by recognized experts in the associated scientific disciplines. I am not sure which other Wiki category this article belongs in, but Science or Biology is not correct, IMHO. SailorfromNH 03:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I think this passage is a bit weird:
AFAIK, despite of proposing emergent phenomena, it does not states that it is due to something like a special "vital principle", but it is yet totally mechanistic. Actually, seems to me that the idea of life being an emergent process, rather than "something by itself" is much more mechanist than vitalist. What would be a non-vitalist vision of a life that also is not an emergent process? -- Extremophile 19:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This has go t to be the most over - wiki ed article I ' ve ever seen on Wikipedia . A link for ATTENTION ? ? ? WTF ? - - dreish ~ talk 15 : 18 , 2 June 2006 ( UTC )
Paul, you have done an excellent job restructuring and clarifying this article and concept. Thank you! -- Dematt 11:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a clear confusion here in this article about emergent behaviour; emergent behaviour is not a controversial phenomenon as far as I am aware, but a simple consequence of complexity in non-linear dynamical systems. The controversy is only about whether things like intelligence are "emergent properties" of a complex system, and possibly whether life itself is. The relevance here is simply that not all phenomena at a high level can be explained in lower level terms, so exactly what is meant by vitalism must be clearly specified if it is not to include clearly conventional "high level" concepts. Gleng 12:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Not aware that it's controversial; the current explosive growth in "systems biology" in molecular biology, and in cognitive neuroscience (but pretty well all neuroscience) is predicated on the knowledge that, above a certain level of complexity, the behaviour of non-linear systems cannot be solved analytically but must be studied empirically through simulation. The goal to achieve wiring diagrams, of cells and circuitries are not blueprints for direct understanding, but blueprints for understanding through subsequent simulation; they are intermediate goals not final goals. If you are interested, then Eric Bonabeau has written a number of popular articles as well as his technical contributions in PNAS and elsewhere, and Burggren WW, Monticino MG. "Assessing physiological complexity". J Exp Biol. 2005 Sep;208(Pt 17):3221-32. Review. PMID 16109885 is one starting point. In the UK, the major challenge in biology is seen as "integration across levels" -this theme is prominent in the missions of the MRC and BBSRC; and is evident in the establishment of many new research centres in Integrative Biology or Systems Biology (including the one I work in). Phrased most simply, the general problem is that while strict reductionism has found low level answers for low level problems, relating these to higher level problems has not been conspicuously successful because of the complexity problem. This is apparent perhaps most strikingly in molecular biology, where the focus is now shifting to studying gene networks as complex systems with emergent behaviour as a way to understand gene function. Whether you call it holism, or integrative biology, or systems biology, the names are different but the ethos is not so different, it is the recognition that complex and interesting behaviours are often the properties of intact systems but not readily recognisable if at all in the behaviour or properties of the component parts. Nobody would call it holism because of mystical connotations; strip away the mysticism and its not so much controversial as conventional. As far as chiropractic is concerned, probably the article here on WP is a good an entry as anything, as it's a very well and carefully sourced article. Gleng 12:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Rise and Fall of British Emergentism, Berlin, Chiropractic! Of course. I always use them in the same sentence. NOT!
Sounds like a lot of gum-flapping to me, KV. It seems to me that you are revealing your usual hatred for all things holistic/alternative/chiropractic and you are just trying to spray your sticky scent in a new corner of WP.
Gleng, who has an exemplary record and the credentials, not to mention a few barnstars (I have one myself, you know), is much more credible as an editor. Unfortunately you, I am sorry to have to remind our audience, has a history of deceptive subterfuge in order to soapbox your severely biased POV. Yet you dismiss Gleng's very polite replys with a wave of your tongue and state your opinion as fact and as everyone's view.
For example, you seem to throw around Williams as you used Ford over in Pseudoscience (remember?) So if you lied to us then, how do we know you are not lying to us now? You see what I mean, KV? Others in Pseudoscience have questioned your use of Williams. With your documented history of lying, we don't have to assume good faith anymore you know. So maybe Gleng has some good points and edits. What do you think? Steth 05:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I created a criticism section for those who want to argue against the validity of vitalism and KrishnaVindaloo takes and runs... They turned it into the "vitalism in alternative medicine" section that included several well respected professions, homeopathy, naturopathy, acupuncture, anthroposophy, biodynamic agriculture and chiropractic in between the critical citations. A Blatant lack of collaborative intent. These actions are not beneficial to the spirit of WP. Or should I say the vitality of it? KrishnaVindaloo should be encouraged to "collaborate" with the fellow editors and learn to discuss controversial edits on the discussion pages. Thanks! -- Travisthurston 04:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems that Krishna Vindaloo has a history of not playing well with others. Perhaps you are familiar with how he crashed the Pseudoscience article and wore out all the editors:
-- Steth 05:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's be brutal. I have published over 300 reviews, papers, articles and book chapters. Of these, only about 150 are in international, peer-reviewed journals, and I wouldn't recommend that anyone cite anything of mine from an unreviewed source if thre is a reviewed alternative. If you're now citing an authored chapter within Williams as a source, at least give the chapter source and the chapter author. My biggest problem with this is verifiability, exactly who says exactly what and in exactly what context. My second question is, if the source is authoritative, why there isn't a peer reviewed alternative? We scientists after all invented, own and operate the peer review system, we can at least use it. Gleng 09:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Finally I note the attempt by KV to smear me (and others) by accusing me and others of POV pushing. I won't speak for the others, they can do so for themselves if they wish, but if they are wiser than me they will rise above it.
I have noted, that many advocates of "alternative medicine" here on WP, often advocates of views that I personally consider not to be well founded, complain that their opponents hold "double standards". In particular, they claim that the standards of V RS demanded of claims on behalf of alternative practice are high, but the standards of V RS for derogatory views are low. I cannot defend this, and will never try to; I see no excuse for "scientists" ever to be less than meticulous and rigorous in their sources for what they insert into articles, choosing the very strongest, and citing them carefully and accurately. I have also noted, that advocates of a pro-science position sometimes seem to regard it as dishonourable to present an argument with which you might disagree in a clear lucid and coherent form, as though "making an argument sound plausible" is somehow itself POV. I am so deeply a part of the scientific and medical establishment that I might hardly be expected to dissent, but again I do dissent, and indeed I cannot dissent too strongly from this. It seems to me that as scientists we have a duty to address not some strawman cariicature of a position with which we disagree, but have a duty to address the most compelling and coherent version of that argument that can be phrased. Our duty therefore is first to "write for the enemy", in WP terms, in expressing their arguments in a serious form. If we cannot counter these, the best arguments, then we should indeed pause for thought, but if we can, then with Popper our views have withstood a determined assault and have survived. Gleng 10:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Trying to verify KVs reference to McClaughlin. McClaughlin is a distinguished philosopher of science and historian, writing apparently mainly about "emergentism" in early 20th century views. Haven't found the original source (book, not available online), but it's widely cited and discussed. This is what the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says about it: "Still, the apparent independence of various confirmed high-level principles and the practical impossibility of deriving them from fundamental principles suggest that Brian McLaughlin's (1992) claim that there is ‘not a scintilla of evidence’ in favor of any sort of ontological emergence is overstated or at least highly misleading." [5]. So it seems that "emergentism" is controversial in some quarters, even if it is accepted in science; although maybe philosophers find everything controversial - this is their job after all. To be honest I'd never even come across the term emergentism, I don't think it's one that scientists commonly use. Emergent behaviour really hit the biology radar after Kauffman's work on complexity in the 1990s and after the shock of finding that the human genome contained many fewer genes than expected. Gleng 11:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
For example, look carefully at your recent edits, and now look exactly at what Keating says: he summarises in the Introduction, and then expands, but the introduction is a good preview:
What are we to think of Innate Intelligence? Is this a legitimate metaphysical proposition, a worthy basis for the science and art of chiropractic? Is there a justifiable place for concepts like innate intelligence in a discipline which seeks advancement in knowledge by means of critical thinking and empirical evidence? The answer I suggest, depends on what is meant by innate intelligence, and at least four meanings (and several derivatives) are available to us
The bold for emphasis is mine. KV, is there any sense in which your edit is true to the source it cites?
"...vitalism is pseudoscientific, untestable doctrine, and metaphysical..." Well this depends on what you mean by vitalism. Vitalist concepts that do not pretend to be scientific can hardly be called pseudoscientific. Nobody would sensibly call a religious concept pseudoscientific. Whether vitalist concepts are untestable depends on what you mean by vitalist concepts; if you do define vitalism in a way that goes beyond mysticism to encompass all high level descriptions, and this encompasses for instance motivational states (anger, fear, stress etc) or emergent behaviours, whether in computational systems or biological systems, then the ideas either that there are no testable predictions or that the concepts are not wholly scientific must be met with utter bemusement. If you go on to call it a doctrine (presumably with literal not merely perjorative intent), then find the lines of the doctrine in the doctrine as laid down, not in what it you assume to be.
If you want to know how chiropractors mean by innate, and don't wish to find out yourself by reading, then you could after all always ask them, there are several editors here who are chiropractors after all, and I would have thought that chiropractors are the best people to explain what chiropractors mean, and I'm not sure what they might have to gain by lying. So let's ask them.
Dear chiropractor, when you use the term "innate intelligence" do you use it literally, in the sense that Palmer did, of an internal mystical intelligence separate from the body but overseeing its health, a kind of "Gaia" of the body? Or are you using the concept metaphorically, to "stand for" the physiological systems of self repair as regulated by the nervous system, some of which are well understood and others of which are known to exist but which are as yet very poorly understood?
One thing that distinguishes chiropractic from conventional medicine, for good or bad, is that chiropractors talk to their patients more, and talk in simple terms to try to give the patient the sense that they understand what the chiropractor is trying to achieve - the Science and Technology Committee Report into Alternative Medicine in the UK specifically addresses this, and you can find this citation in chiropractic. Whether it's a good thing to make the patient feel they understand, or whether it's a bad thing that things are oversimplified or expressed in what seem to be woolly terms, is a matter of opinion. But not to understand how terms are used, why and in what context and what sense, and to then simply assert a misrepresentation, is a failing of scholarship Gleng 09:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
KV, Gleng, Steth, what the heck are arguing about all the time? Can you please re-state the hotly debated dissens in a short, accessable form, so that latecomers can learn, what's the problem here? -- Pjacobi 09:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Sympathies. The allegations, and they are serious ones (hence the heat) are these:
A) That KV is using WP to assert an opinion of what he believes to be true, and appearing to support it by weak references that are not easy to verify, and that when they are checked they do not say what they have been claimed to say. The allegation is thus one of intellectual dishonesty in the use of sources.
My advice is to first find V RS and then build an article reporting what these actually say, explaining the context and meaning with care and balance.
B) KV's allegation is that I and others are using this argument as a screen to promote our own POV, and that what he is asserting is self evidently true, whereas chiropractors for instance are not "legitimate" editors and cannot be expected to be able to present issues in a balanced way. I am, according to KV, clearly biased because I have supported their arguuments on some issues, and so anything I say should be discounted similarly.
Specifically, KV seems concerned to represent chiropractic (inter alia) as a pseudoscience because it uses vitalistic concepts like innate intelligence. This argument requires characterising innate as a vitalistic concept, which depends on a) what you mean by vitalism, b) what is meant by innate and c) what is meant by pseudoscience. What is apparent in all the above is a) that innate is used in many different ways now and different ways again in the past; b) that the concept of vitalism needs to be "precised" whenever it is used because different people mean different things by it in different contexts, and there is a sense in which many minstream science concepts can be described as essentially "vitalist"; c) that the use of the word pseudoscience is essentially derogatory, and many believe that it should be strictly and carefully applied to subjects that appear to be scientific but which in fact are not , so excluding mysticism for instance, which cannot plausibly be confused with real science. Because of the inherently derogatory use of the term we believe that discussion on pseudoscience should be carefully confined to reporting how it is used in V RS. Gleng 10:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Good question; it was of course, long ago now, and long settled. The discussions on the pseudoscience page have been ground down by the same conflict, now transported here because KV wants to associate vitalism with pseudoscience in a generalised form. But it clearly isn't just about chiropractic, but seems to be about everything. What I want is this to be an article about vitalsim, how it has been used in V RS, what people meant by it, the nature of the disputes etc all through V RS and avoiding POV. What KV seems to want is to use this article to pass judgement - vitalism is bad, vitalism is pseudoscience, XYZ have vitalist elements, therefore they are bad and pseudoscientific. Chiropractic is merely an example here of an approach that permeates this article, and an approach bolstered by misleading use of citations.
So what would I like to see. Strip out every disputed assertion that isn't backed by a V RS that has been verified; why I press that they must be actually verified not just verifiable, you can find out on pseudoscience Talk. I would like every mention of vitalism qualified by the context in which it is used - in what sense was X using it, and when? I would like mention of specific examples to be qualified to specify the context and meaning. I would like assertions that can be taken as derogatory to be declared as opinion (not as fact), and identified as the opinion of a notable source, and given V RS for that opinion, and enough context given for the opinion to be understood in the context in which it was stated. Why I can't do this here myself , again see the PS Talk page. But this strategy for building a good article needs the clear will of the editors here to back the kind of rigorous revision that is needed. Gleng 13:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Restored homeopathy specifying historical vitalist elements, referenced fully in homeopathy so think the wikilink is adequate here. Gleng 10:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I've edited generally as an illustration to remove material that I think is badly sourced, logically unsound, or opinionated without source for the opinion.
Falsification: this edit needs some explanation. Curiously, this section contradicted an earlier section claiming that vitalism was not falsifiable and had no predictions by displaying an example both of prediction and falsifiability. I edited this section because "Vitalism" is not A Theory, but a characterisation of many different ideas.
Dawkins is an excellent source for opinion of courcse; it needs only to be clear what he actually said about what, enough to understand exactly what he meant by vitalism and exactly what he meant by pseudoscience, and exactly where to find his words in the book.
The children quote was moved simply because it was a non-sequitur as placed, and moved to the lead. Whether their ideas are in fact misleading or whether they are at that age valuable guides to understanding the world I don't know - what did the authors say? Pro tem I deleted a suspected inference beyond the authors conclusions, but it may have been the authors' own inference
Finally removed the "wiring diagram" account for reasons discussed previously. Not because biologists like myself are not trying to construct wiring diagrams through reductionist approaches, of course we are. But we don't necessarily expect these to constitute an explanation, because of the issues of complexity and emergent behaviours. They are however necessary steps towards developing models that might lead to an explanation, by simulation of complexity and emergent properties.
Gleng 13:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
? If I took that out it was a mistake, sorry? Gleng 15:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC) Found it and restored it.
OK williams - I've restored this as source for the contention that vitalism is not testable, but cannot verify this myself directly. I have found no other source that makes this claim, so I can't substitute any better (or indeed any other) source; it looks as though this might be a unique claim; please give exact words and author name?
Gleng 22:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Cat: Agree, cat no problem for the article as it is at present as I can't see any derogatory implications in the article itself. Gleng 23:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the ref; I've removed it from where it was a clear non-sequitur to replace a duplicate reference that I was unable to verify as Talk. Could you now lease verify this as it is not available on-line by stating the exact words with which they declare vitalism to be untestable?
I have removed your account of Keating's cite for the reasons given above; the direct quote I listed above shows that Keating describes several different ways in which "innate has and is used; by selecting just one you are distorting what he said and unbalancing the article by selecting a single POV. However, I have already called upon any chiropractors to clarify exactl;y in what sense innate is used today, so I'll repeat that call for their advice on what is after all their area of expertise:
Dear chiropractor, when you use the term "innate intelligence" do you use it literally, in the sense that Palmer did, of an internal mystical intelligence separate from the body but overseeing its health, a kind of "Gaia" of the body? Or are you using the concept metaphorically, to "stand for" the physiological systems of self repair as regulated by the nervous system, some of which are well understood and others of which are known to exist but which are as yet very poorly understood?
I'm happy to follow their advice on whatever they mean by a term that they use. Or do you think that you know better than them what they mean by what they say?
Not sure why you removed the distinction between hard and soft vitalism; don't know weho wrote that but seems OK, though it does lack V RS, so if you dispute its accuracy I won't argue but will delete it or find a V RS.
Finally, still awaiting the exact words from a Williams chapter and McLaughlin; can't proceed on these without verification of words and context.... Gleng 06:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Not clear exactly what vitalist concepts are in homeopathy? They postulate a purely physico-chemical basis for the efficacy; might or mightnot be nonsense, but it's not vitalism. Checking the others Gleng 06:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Added detail with references, used reviews in peer reviewed journals where at least the abstracts are available on line mainly, though there are one or two primary sources there too. The originalreference to a review on "Molecular Vitalism" wasn't immediately recognised as authoritative by KV; as his understanding of what constitutes V RS and mine differ I guess the significance of this must be judged by others. Its relevance seems to be displayed by the title, it is a review, the quality of a journal can always be questioned but Cell is often described as the leading molecular biology journal, and as its impact factor is consistently (and considerably) greater than that of either Science or Nature so they probably have a case. In all the disagreement lets not lose sight of what we have agreed on; KV has clearly agreed that emergent behaviour is a modern form of vitalism, as indeed expressed in the Cell review. So the status of this modern form of vitalism as scientific or not seems relevant to oher issues of disputed wording in the article. Had I found any V RS proposing that "emergent behaviour" is a currently disputed concept I would be delighted to have included it. Gleng 08:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Last two paras- I've not included V RS within these as the Wiki likks are themselves well referenced sources, but if there's anything that needs a V RS still let me know, it's not a problem Gleng 09:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Trying to verify the Bechtel cite and see the context, but I came across this [6]; seems to be the same Bechtel, but a rather different argument? Won't include as not a V RS; not peer reviewed. Gleng 12:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah! found "Discovering Complexity: Decomposition and Localization as Strategies in Scientific Research William Bechtel and Robert C. Richardson. [7] To quote: The book examines in detail the usefulness of these heuristics in biological science, but also discusses their fallibility: underlying their use is the sometimes false assumption that nature is significantly decomposable and hierarchical. When a system does not appear to be decomposable, a classic response has been to abandon the pursuit of mechanistic explanation and to settle for accurate descriptions of phenomena. More recently, with advances in mathematical modeling, an alternative has emerged. Described in this work is an approach to explanation that appeals to interactions between simple components, rather than assigning functions to individual components.
OK, let's look closely at what words are put in their mouth in this article. Gleng 12:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Here is the cite as inserted by KV: Vitalism now has no credibility (Bechtel and Williamson 1998) because vitalism is often viewed as unfalsifiable, and therefore a pernicious metaphysical doctrine.
OK, I really think we need to see here exactly what they said, because in this source, they seem to be saying pretty well the exact opposite (the sometimes false assumption that nature is significantly decomposable and hierarchical. Gleng 12:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Not really the same. I have now found the reference, and the wording given by KV is accurate, it is the context that explains the contradiction between the two quotes. In the Encyclopedia article, B and W are strictly talking abot mystical vitalism - i,e, the literal view, in their own words, that "vitalism holds that living entities contain some fluid, or a distinctive ‘spirit’". In this limited definition what they are quoted as saying is not controversial. When it is attached to a generalised or wider notion of vitalism, stripped of its overt mystical connotations, then it becomes nonsense, and thus when B and W talk of emergent properties they clearly regard these as normal science, but do not call them vitalist. In the narrow sense then, theirs is an opinion, held about obsolete vitalist notions that have been superceded or refuted. If the article extends beyond this literal definition then the quotes are clearly incompatible. So it's an honest mistake, just needed attention to context. Gleng 17:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm saying that the source quoted as calling it iunscientific was explicitly talking about mystical literal vitalism. The same source, when talking about emergent behaviors, is clearly (very) supportive of their scientific nature. Now, as the article makes clear, many paople use vitalism in a brioad sense to encompass all "holoistic" theories that involve higher level properties, forces or phenomena, phenomena not reducible to the properties of component parts. This is clearly not what B and R were tallking about - they don't use "vitalism" in this sense at all.
As far as testability is concerned, clearly most early vitalist theories were testable - they were indeed tested and falsified, and this is true of mesmerism, the phlogiston theory in particular. Although they were mystical, they nevertheless had concrete predictions. In this sense therefore they are scientific.
Today we would not consider any theory that invoked a spirit or mystic entity as being scientific - but not because they aren't testable, but because they a) go beyond parsimony in invoking more than strictly needed and b) because they are overtly religious, and in these aspects are outside the remit of science
Gleng 21:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Not about my beliefs, this is not a matter of belief at all but of sourced fact if you care to read the article. Not only were Mesmerism and the phlogiston theory testab;le, they were tested and falsified. Now if you want the article to include a named opinion as stating that vitalism is not testable I'll be delighted to place this in the relevant place; it will make them look stupid, but I'm afraid I can hardly take responsibility for that. Gleng 13:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Gleng, I'm having trouble deciding how this experiment was supposed to work. Can you clarify it a little:
See what I mean? IOW, I think if we can exlain what was supposed to happen, then the conclusion would be clearer. -- Dematt 18:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, this was an early example of "blind" testing; one cup of water was "mesmerised" but the subject was misled into thinking that a different one had been, similarly with the trees. The experiment showed that it was the suggestion that was effective, and not the actual supposed "mesmerising" . I'll clarify tomorrow. thanks Gleng 21:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dematt, I found a better reference available free in full text online which describes the experiments in detail; added to text.
Gleng 18:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a few thoughts about where to place vitalism on the scientific spectra:
"Prescientific" is a term that can be used to judge the historical significance of a phenomena, whether it be a body of alleged knowledge, methodology, belief or practice. As such its usefulness as a term is limited to discussing the history of a phenomena, and does not accurately describe the phenomena's present day status.
A prescientific phenomena can follow at least one of three paths leading to extremely different conclusions:
Translation: Vitalism was a prescientific concept, and for those who continue to espouse it, it is a pseudoscientific idea, and makes them vulnerable to being labeled with the pejorative term "vitalist." -- Fyslee 19:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
many thanks, tired now, will return when I can and digest this, but quickly (and perhaps inaccurately), no I think that historically the vitalist theories were thought to be perfectly scientific, and indeed were proposed by some of the greatest scientists of the time - these are not fringe loonies, but the Newtons etc of their age Gleng 21:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
As always Fyslee, you are wise and thoughtful; I've added a quote at the end from Mayr as his opinion seems to be worthy of being thought notable.
I'm a little shaky about "pre-scientific" because this depends upon when you date the start of science, or how you define the threshold for consideration of something as scientific, and these seem to be moving targets. Some would date the start to Aristotle, and it might be worth adding here his concept of ultimate causes as the first recorded expression of vitalist concepts in scientific (or pre scientific) thought.
I guess it's important to be clear about the historical nature of theories, like the phlogiston theory, and not inadvertently imply that they would be considered scientific today. Maybe a discussion on historicism would be appropriate as a separate section to make the point you raise if there is any danger in the article as written at present of indicating that obsolete theories would be regarded as scientific if proposed in the same form today.?
On perjorative use, of course there are some distinguished (and entertaining) examples of very high profile "spats" between very distinguished authorities that might be worth referencing here, certainly will do so if there is any dispute about whether it is indeed used in a perjorative sense. Might be right to do so anyway?
We have focused on vitalist ideas in biology, and obviously I selected examples from biology through familiarity with my own spheres of expertise, but I do recall a seventeenth century philosopher, name I forget, proposing unseen "forces" inherent in physical bodies that acted invisibly on other bodies at a distance, pretty untestable but maybe worth a mention? Should I chase the sources and refresh my memory, which is probably unreliable? Or should we stick to biology? Gleng 16:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. I know it may be fun to formulate arguments for defunct notions, but this is Wikipedia and OR is not allowed. The chiropractic bias may be inducing people here to create reality out of nothing in a postmodernistic sort of way. Lets stop writing argumentitive lines in the article please, and if you could, please stop "interpreting" skeptics to make them look like supporters. Nowhere in Keatings writings does he say that chiropractic has rejected all non-scientific notions of vitalism. On the contrary, the literature says that it is very much maintained today in many alternative medicine followings. Emergentism as it is commonly known, rejects the notion of vitalism. It is discredited by all but the fringe. KrishnaVindaloo 03:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I wonder where I heard this? Sorry Steth, emergentism is controversial. The quantum mechanical explanation of chemical bonding and the enusing successes of molecular biology led to the almost complete demise of emergentist views of chemistry and biology. (McLauchlin 1992). KV, it does appear that having argued that emergentism is indeed vitalism in a modern form (as indeed argued in the Cell review, and an argument I'nve always agreed with), you now seem to have decided that as emergentism is perfectly respectable it can't after all be vitalism. Have I got you right here?
Alternative medicine uses a great deal of vitalism concepts, and that is the majority definition of vitalism. I repeat, the majority sees vitalism as anti-reductionist, anti-science, and pseudoscientific. We are talking about qi, prana, odic force, mana, innate, vital force etc. There may well be vitalism theories floating around but they are either fringe or just metaphysical, or maybe things that look a bit like "vitalism" in inverted commas. But that is outside the scope of alternative medicine, and the scientific method prevails. So far there is no better method than the scientific method, which uses reductionism and positivism. That is the majority view. KrishnaVindaloo 03:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
KV. Just present your sources. We're not excluding any well sourced notable opinion or fact from this. Feel free to question the credibility or accuracy of any source that I have inserted here on the Talk page, or to request further V RS in case you think that I have inadvertently included anything that needs a source; all the sources that I have inserted are available on line to make this easy for any reader to do this for himself or herself. Gleng 13:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't aware that Louis Pasteur was a vitalist. He would be a good addition. Gleng, do you know anything about him that is worth mentioning? We could get a good picture of him as well. I didn't realize that he died in 1895. -- Dematt 23:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello Gleng especially. The main thesis of your POV laden argument for emergentism being vitalistic was based upon an erroneous use of the "biochemical vitalism" article. They state that they use the term in a lighthearted way. It is not serious. Please don't waste editor's time in checking up on umpteen references that don't even mention vitalism at all. Now I am not calling you a liar, but lets face it, in the light of accusations made against myself by a certain group, your recent edits have turned out to be far more than a bit ironic. If you have any evidence at all that vitalism (with a serious definition) is used in modern science, then please present it on the talk page and we can talk it through. KrishnaVindaloo 03:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi again. The only evidence I can find for vitalism being present in modern science is that of the laughably light hearted "biochemical vitalism" review. It does not warrant a section on vitalism as a part of modern science. It may be mentioned in the context of ridicule (Mayr). Otherwise, such information should not be placed in the article in such a misleading way. KrishnaVindaloo 03:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, lets try to make a good article. Here are some suggestions:
I'm not trying to be difficult here, its just that I see a lot of very odd or spurious editing going on. Thank you KrishnaVindaloo 04:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Our discussion illustrates the nature of biological organization and explores the potential chemical principles behind them. Although the units we consider, proteins, cells, and embryos are manifestly the products of genes, the mechanisms that promote their function are often far removed from sequence information. In a light-hearted, millennial vein we might call research into this kind of integrated cell and organismal physiology “molecular vitalism.”
The references that you deleted all exemplify explicitly modern conceptions in biology, that focus on "integrative", "holistic", "systems biology views of biological phenomena that are emergent properties of complex organisms, not amenable to explanation by reductionism alone.
What is apparent is that even in the 17th century "vitalists" were using vitalist concepts not literally as invoking supernatural causes, but metaphorically as representing higher level principles that were not understood. Some of these ideas look essentially (and indeed are essentially indistinguishable from current ideas of epigenesis for example. But don't take my word for it, look at what Mayr says for instance.
So personally, I don't think your argument has any merit. The references that you have deleted all strictly apply to modern intellectual concepts that, were they only given mystical names, would be indistinguishable from vitalism, which is Kirchner's point. The connection of these ideas to vitalism is made explicit in several of the references, those that don't explicitly mention vitalism except for instance in referring to vitalism are elaborations of those emergent behaviours which motivate the parallel drawn by Kirchner and others, so demonstrating that this contemporary biological thinking is neither marginal nor controversial, but indeed is the new orthodoxy. I'm afraid that modern biology is in the process of rejecting reductionism (as a panacea, not as a methodology) but embracing something that looks rather like vitalism, minus of course the occult. Either way, the references are there all linked, and they allow the reader to judge.
I suggest though that deleting V RS additions without prior discussion and agreement on an established controversial topic is vandalism. I won't revert your changes myself, but if anyone else thinks that agreement should be achieved on KV's wholesale deletions first, on these pages, then I would support that reversion. I'll take the Keating point separately Gleng 08:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Good. Meantime, citing you earlier Thank you Gleng. Emergentism is very controversial. If you have evidence or sources that show that chiropractic proponents have that view (not all phenomena at high level can be explained in low level terms), then that will be useful for the article as an example. KrishnaVindaloo 05:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC) It is difficult not to think that you are changing your grounds as to what constitutes vitalism according to whether the evidence supports your opinion about it or not. However, the definition of vitalism in the article at present is as given by Merriam at present; two meanings; B and W confine their opinions about vitalism to their opinions strictly of the first sense in which it can be used, and when talking of obsolete vitalist theories; clearly they are not opposed to vitalism in the second sense, as proponents of emergentism themselves. Gleng 16:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello Gleng.
That will do for now. KrishnaVindaloo 09:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed this, it's hardly encyclopaedic
•Jim62sch• 09:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Think you need to consider exactly what constitutes a V RS; but you are right, a single review, even in the best journal in science, is just one review; which is why I detailed the suport for the ideas of emergent properties and systems biology across a wide range of areas of biology, papers that cite Kirschner, explicitly link with vitalism, or make congruent arguments about emergent behaviour. You have to distinguish between the name and that which the name stands for, Kirschner's mischief was in recognising that although the name was obsolete, not all the ideas that it named were. Gleng 16:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, it seems that in quoting Keating above I stopped a sentence short for KV. That sentence is now added in bold.
What are we to think of Innate Intelligence? Is this a legitimate metaphysical proposition, a worthy basis for the science and art of chiropractic? Is there a justifiable place for concepts like innate intelligence in a discipline which seeks advancement in knowledge by means of critical thinking and empirical evidence? The answer I suggest, depends on what is meant by innate intelligence, and at least four meanings (and several derivatives) are available to us These include II as a synonym for homeostasis, II as a label for our ignorance, II as a vitalist explanation of life, and II as a metaphysical concept
Now look at KV’s insertion: According to Keating, in chiropractic, vitalism "innate intelligence" has several variants; the belief in the unseen Innate spirit; the fraction of universal intelligence or God; vital force; and an “aspiritual spirit”, and less theologically; likening the vital force to electricity or substituting the idea of “nerve force”; and the belief in “Infinite Oneness.
Again, in what sense is KV’s insertion true to the context of the original? So what is Keating saying: He is rejecting ”a tradition in biology which proposes that life is sustained by an unmeasurable, intelligent force or entity”.
His is an opinion; but expressed in these terms it is an opinion shared by I think most contemporary scientists including myself, if the word “intelligent” is taken at face value. But if “vitalist” notions are used metaphorically not literally, then you take away the implication of an occult or mystical invocation of a guiding deity, (which is rejected by science not because of its lack of testability but because it fails the principle of parsimony). When you do so, then theories of the vitalists, who included many of the very greatest names in the history of Science, are simply predecessors of current thinking in biology.
What Keating is not doing is crudely denigrating chiropractic; indeed he is a chiropractor himself. What he is doing is arguing his case for one strand in chiropractic philosophy that seeks to actively purge any content that might even be read as mystical, however mistaken that reading of it might be; he clearly has a case, because it is too easy to make fun of a name like innate intelligence.
But it is worth pondering on another scientist of the seventeenth century who invoked an untestable assumption of an unseen force that permeated the universe, by which any one body could act upon any other body instantaneously, invisibly and mysteriously, over any distance, and with no intervening physical medium. He called it "gravity". Let us be thankful that he didn’t call it "attractive intelligence". And let us not let these articles on WP become part of the crude and casual derogation of men and ideas by mere association.
So I’d favour modifying the Keating reference to include the extended quote from him as above. Any support? Gleng 09:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
To KV on innate, Absolutely. My objection was to you classifying innate as vitalism when this is mainly a historical usage, and so gratuitously intoducing a pejorative inference about current usage in chiropractic.
Howwever clearly there is a decision time for the direction of this article, with two very different courses for it:
a) to restrict the article strictly to vitalism as explicitly invoking a clearly mystical or supernatural agency. This interpretation would eliminate most of the current content, and it would need to be made clear that opinions about vitalism are understood as strictly applying to this limited definition. The content would be mainly historical, with the only contemporary applications I think being in fringe mysticism.
b) to also discuss the intellectual ideas that were posed in vitalist terms, and their successors, derivatives and equivalents in modern science. This takes the broad "vitalist" theme that biological phenomena are not in general, accessible to reductionism, as argued by Mayr, but involve emergent properties of complex systems that give rise to feature at a high level that are not reflected in the individual properties of lower level components. This after all was the great philosophical debate of the time of vitalism; in their time, vitalist ideas were attacked as not being amenable to reductionism; now, reductionism itself is under attack (actually, I'm not sure that this would be a fair representation f the current state of biology; it would probably be fair to say that reductionism is retained as a central and essential part of the methodology of modern biology, but that its limitations are now pretty universally acknowledged, and its claim to generalised explanatory power for higher level phenomena is discredited).
I am uninterested in the former direction for the article, (except in WP interests to see that it is based in V RS, that the references are true to context, and that the article does not fall into ahistorical fallacies or draw gratuitous judgements. The latter to me is more interesting, in considering the vitalist theories for their intellectual content. However; what do editors want to see? Roll back all my contributions, by all means, if that's the way that others feel is appropriate; I'm a democrat by instinct, and I'll probably publish them independently in some form. Just don't roll them back in part please to leave a muddled, illogical, incoherent and opinionated article, I have no interest in being associated with that. Gleng 10:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I definitely agree, it's all so interesting. -- Dematt 21:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"and the Lord has delivered him into my hands"
Again, and again, and again, and again, the complaint of other editors about KV's edits is that they are poorly sourced, misquoted, or quoted out of context, or quoted in a misleading way. Let us see now KV's latest addition It reads, in full
“A popular anecdote often told to introduce chemistry courses at universities, is that the birth of chemistry was the death of vitalism [8].”
..... and now read on, in that very reference, what KV left out but which reverses the very implication of his insertion
... In fact, contemporary accounts do not support the claim that vitalism died when Wöhler made urea.
... and on... The Wöhler Myth, as historian of science Peter J. Ramberg calls it, originates from one account by Bernard Jaffe, the author of a popular history of chemistry in 1931 that is still in print today. Ignoring all pretense of historical accuracy, Jaffe turned Wöhler into a crusader who made attempt after attempt to synthesize a natural product that would refute vitalism and lift the veil of ignorance, until ‘one afternoon the miracle happened’” (Ramberg, 2000, p. 170-195).
... and on, we find in this very example a recognition of parallels between modern biology and vitalism this very point that KV is resisting so hard... Historically, even scientists have not universally accepted the death of vitalism. Since the beginning of modern biology, there have been those who see in the increasing complexity of our understanding of life a multiplication of ways for vitalism to fit into our beliefs.
KV asks for a citation to a statement (pejorative use) that is given an explicit, sourced and quoted example after his request; in fact an example that in his recent edit he put it into the text a second time, duplicating it, so it is hard to see exactly how he missed it. Finally KV asks for a reference to support the dual use of the term vitalism; the two definitions open the article, they are at the top of the page.
I am accordingly reverting all KVs edits. In future I suggest that KV places his proposed edits on this page first before disrupting the text. If any other editor sees any merit in his suggestion, then I will be happy to consider the points he has made. But chasing poorly sourced and mis-cited edits is something that now wearies me. Give me a reason to accord any of his edits credibility and I will look at it seriously.
The source that he has found does give an interesting light on the Wohler story, and so I think does merit inclusion, if quoted accurately. For the moment I've inserted this ref as a holding stage; it doesn't look like a great journal so I'll try to find a better source, but am guessing that the quote it gives is accurate
Gleng 08:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Gleng. I must remind you that argumentative writing is not one of Wikipedia's policies and it reflects extremely badly upon you as an editor. It make you look bullying and argumentative. You have presented multiple arguments and promotions in the article using argumentative language throughout. Please stop. KrishnaVindaloo 10:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
More specifically, stop it with putting all the buts and howevers all over the place. You are clearly making one view look preferable to another. Its a particularly crappy way of pushing your own POV. Stop doing it.
KrishnaVindaloo 10:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Cheng is a sophomore at the University of Penn writing in an undergraduate University magazine. As I said, the factual information is probably correct (and I provisioally included the source for that) but even the facts will need better sources. However, this fails V RS. Gleng 10:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
A lot of the criticisms section seems to be original research to me. It also appears to contain very little criticism. Jefffire 18:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe misnamed. Not sure what you think is OR. What else do you think needs V RS exactly? Gleng 20:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
KV.
1) Have you read the Cell article? How do you square your representation of this with the paper as a whole, but especially the last section? To me at least it looks like a travesty of what the authors actually say; perhaps it’s better to quote their conclusions verbatim? I’d be happy to replace my paraphrase with that.
2) Cheng: the journal is an undergraduate Penn State University journal, not international, not listed in Index Medicus or on PubMed. The information was fine, the source was weak, I located the same information from a strong source and inserted that, making the Cheng cite redundant as a source of fact. As a source of opinion, it can’t be replaced in this way, the only issue is whether you consider the opinion of an undergraduate writing in this journal as notable. You do, I don’t. (The author is identified as a sophomore).
3) Let’s get this done. KV, having repeatedly attacked my personal integrity now declares my actions as crimes. These are serious personal attack, directed at me personally not my edits; I am not anonymous and if they were given any credibility they would be libellous.
This was the state of the article on 22nd September 2006 after KV’s contributions and before any involvement of mine. [10]
It contained exactly 5 references, none of which had an internet link, only one of which was given with full access details. One was to a 1966 non peer reviewed Conference proceedings article not available on line, and one to an encyclopedia, no further details given of where exactly.
Yes, I raised concerns about sources and about the accuracy of the content, and argued extensively on the Talk pages that this article should be rebuilt from V RS with information available and checkable on line for verification. KV resisted, and though I have better things to do, I thought the only way to get a decent article here would be to show by example.
This was the article five days later, on September 27th 2006 [11], not only with my changes; Dematt in particular provided the illustrations.
This version of the article has 36 references linked to the text and the text includes another 5 that are not yet linked as refs; in all cases the access details are complete, all are available for checking on line, I think all are strong V RS, most I got through PubMed with keyword searches choosing reviews, others outside medicine through Google Scholar searching for keywords with pdf availability of text. All I’ve read, from beginning to end.
The main text of the article, excluding the lead sense which is a direct dictionary quote, has about 2600 words on my counter of which about 250 are direct attributed verbatim quotes. The 40 references, together with about 100 unique wikilinks, reference about 2,400 words of text: an average of one on-line V RS and 2.5 wikilinks for every 60 words of text. The direct relevance of each citation to the text that precedes it is open for inspection as all are linked electronically. Is this a record for the most densely sourced article on WP?
I am busy with other things (very), but have detailed my positions rather fully on this Talk page. I provided a clear summary of my POV here [12] and [13], or anyone can find what I have written in the public domain (or has been written about me) elsewhere for themselves.
Clearly I have had repeated concerns about the unreliability of KVs references, here on this page and on the pseudoscience Talk page; I have spent a large amount of time tracking them down, with results that have indicated that this is an essential task if anything he writes is to remain in WP. I am now reverting all KVs edits; it is my view that he has reinserted weak sources, disturbed the flow of the article, and that despite requests to do so he has made edits, knowing that they would be controversial, before explaining his rationale here on the Talk page and first gaining some support for specific changes. I don’t know about procedural routes etc; it seems to me that the community must decide what to do here because KVs editing is not compatible with my participation on WP. In my view his editing has been disruptive, tendentious, badly researched, and his comments rich with personal attacks on the motives and integrity of many editors, including myself. I don’t know about processes, but if anyone wants to transport this to an RfA then please do so. For now I am gone with other things, at least for a while Gleng 09:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
If you'll pardon me for sticking to the topic, I've remove quite a large chunk of text which I reckon is not only OR, but incorrect as well, namely the section citing chaos theory as support for vitalism. Jefffire 10:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I can't insert the V RS I used for accuracy of the paraphrasing of butterfly effect statements for obvious reasons, but Dematt can if he chooses, as he has the full pdf.
The wording didn't imply support for vitalism from chaos theory, but for the unpredictability and irreducibility of complex systems
The thread on emergent behaviours was introduced first by KV, referenced and corrected by me
Gleng 10:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Gleng 10:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Trouble is the real historical debates about vitalism were about vitalism vs reductionism, this was the intellectual debate, and explicitly so, the appearance of supernatural elements wasn't really the issue. After the apparent triumph of reductionism, the nature of this argument was largely lost and vitalism merely derided, in the public mind, for the apparent superstitious nature. But the argument about reductionism is alive again, and the issues are essentially the same as those of the historical intellectual argument. Strip away the appearance of superstition, and the structure of vitalist theories is identical with the structure of modern theories of emergent behaviour - (not my argument, see the cited refs) Gleng 12:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Jeffire; I think that where a statement is disputed then the process as I understand it is to ask for V RS before concluding that it is OR. As exactly what was disputed was not clear and is not clear still, but here are the words of an editorial that I paraphrased; you can judge if I paraphrased accurately. You might dispute the opinions or the facts given, nut that I am not going to get into as WP is about verifiability not truth. So as not to overburden this page I insert the text and then delete it from the talk page so you can see it in the history [14] Gleng 11:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, absolutely, I think that the author would agree that there is no way that chaos or emergence is contradictory to mechanism, and would agree that it is wholly wrong to think otherwise. But vitalism always proposed mechanisms also, the key historical issue was whether the mechanism was reducible or not - but I thought your edit summary queried the link between CT and holism, not that between holism and vitalism? Gleng 12:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
So where are we? I hadn't sourced the statements you saw as OR as I did not consider them controversial, but have now shown the source. Happy not OR? I see you're happy that they link CT and holism in contrast to reductionism.
The question then is are you happy with presenting the view that modern "holistic" and "anti-reductionist" theories in biology as being structurally similar to the holistic anti reductionist historical approach of vitalists, as argued through the philosophy of science articles and in the Cell review? If so this section, on modern "versions" of vitalism seems OK, but might need more expansion and clarifcation? I had thought it better to be compact so that it would be a relatively small proportion of the whole. What do you think? Could cite the Cell conclusions more fully and verbatim of course as a way to develop? Gleng 13:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Beginning with the status of emergence and emergent behaviour. This discussion began before my entry on this page and KV’s view then that this was basically vitalism minus mysticism. This is a common view and one I share, along with as far as I can see current philosophy of science generally and as referenced in the article. It is a view that KV appeared to drop because he decided that emergent behaviour was after all mainstream.
Here is the early exponent of emergentism, J.S. Mill:, quoted in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy All organised bodies are composed of parts, similar to those composing inorganic nature, and which have even themselves existed in an inorganic state; but the phenomena of life, which result from the juxtaposition of those parts in a certain manner, bear no analogy to any of the effects which would be produced by the action of the component substances considered as mere physical agents. To whatever degree we might imagine our knowledge of the properties of the several ingredients of a living body to be extended and perfected, it is certain that no mere summing up of the separate actions of those elements will ever amount to the action of the living body itself.
The link between emergent properties and (vitalism-mysticism) is the basis for the (cited)philosophical analysis that structurally they are equivalent. Modern theories of emergent behaviour express a mathematical foundation for emergence, and this indeed has little to do with chaos theory, and it’s a mistake to confuse these. However vitalism, historically was seen as in intellectual opposition to reductionism, as in many of the cited refs. This was the central debate through the nineteenth century, and vitalism lost essentially because it was seen as inferior to reductionism.
However through the late twentieth century, biology has seen many notably outspoken anti-reductionists, (Gould and Mayr are oddly on the same side here against Dawkins; a key quote from Mayr was deleted in Kvs edits). The key thesis of reductionism has been the promise of what has been called a “predictive biology”, and here’s where CT upset the apple cart, because it showed that reductionist models aren’t necessarily going to be predictive. This raises a second problem, because if they’re not predictive, how can they be falsifiable (as explanations of higher level phenomena). This really screws things, because reductionism itself looks now as though it might be unscientific (in Popper’s sense) as an explanation for higher level phenomena. Hence now the rush to networks, complexity, systems biology, emergent behaviours etc etc in an attempt to develop a fresh basis for understanding higher level phenomena.
Thus the revival of emergence is part of the questioning (and rejection by some) of reductionism, which itself had superceded vitalism, the analogue of emergence.
This is of course merely my paraphrasing of the arguments raised in the cited articles, you'll have to judge for yourself whether it's an accurate paraphrase of a pretty universal contemparary argument. I am not aware of any dissent from it, except in the sense that many may feel that reductionism will in practice have a lot of explanatory power. The new theories don't imply the rejection of reductionism, only acknowledge its limitations.
I noticed incidentally that one of my links wasn’t working (former ref 9) It was to Schultz SG. A century of (epithelial) transport physiology: from vitalism to molecular cloning. Am J Physiol. 1998 Jan;274(1 Pt 1):C13-23. PMID 9458708 This contains the following account, interesting in light of the discussion about the pejorative nature of vitalism as an epithet. Reid had clearly and, to the best of my knowledge, for the first time unambiguously demonstrated and recognized "active transport" by an in vitro preparation; that is, the flow of matter in the absence of an external (conjugate) driving force that was dependent upon a source of metabolic energy! ...However, what should have been a clarion call heralding a major conceptual breakthrough in epithelial biology turned out to be barely a whimper. ... Why? Could it be because he used the phrase "vital force" to describe his observations, a phrase that was perhaps the naughtiest in the naturalist's lexicon during that era?
OK, I'm done for now, I have other things to do. Frankly, I'd rather you roll back to KVs version of a week ago than sustain what I honestly think is a POV hybrid. The POV that I see in KVs version is simply a wish to conclude that vitalist theories were foolish, untestable, and have been discarded as pseudoscientific. It's a popular view, but not in academic circles, and not one I've seen in V RS, except where the context restricts the inference to mystical vitalism. Instead you'll find in V RS that the popular view, promoted by KV as the majority view, is full of canards; vitalism was hugely influential, many of the great scientists were vitalists, the theories forged much of modern science, and the successors are alive and well. So far from being untestable and unfalsifiable, tests of vitalist theories are textbook examples of test and falsification. The name has gone, because of its derogatory implications. The mysticism has gone. But the mysticism went long ago, even when the mystical names stayed. It does rather depend on whether WP articles are about promoting popular misconceptions or take the science'academic POV as the majority in this context. But actually there isn't much opinion in this article, it's pretty well all sourced fact and quoted opinion Gleng 15:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Chaos theory etc (specifically, the lack of predictability of complex deterministic non-linear dynamical systems) is part of the reason for a return of interest in emergence/modern "vitalist" explanations, certainly not part of those explanations. I think a separate section on "popular" conceptions/misconceptions/descriptions of vitalism would be a good idea and wouldn't need V RS as it would focus on what the mass internet sites/"popular" books say about it, maybe kept apart from what academics/historians/philosophers say. Vitalism, structurally, declares that high level phenomena needs high level modes of explanation. There is always a potential problem, paraphrasing academic arguments can look like OR, but if that's OR then what are we doing here? The issue is, is the paraphrasing accurate? In this case I didn't cite the source because the (direct) source was mine and I was waiting to see if it was disputed. The article content is expanded incidentally in a full review, (The Jacques Benoit Lecture) published this year and in a review in Nature Neuroscience Reviews, also this yearbut the editorial is more direct and gives the butterfly link explicitly. I'm not suggesting that these should be cited and rather steer clear of any citation of my work. However I mention them as presumably evidence that any paraphrasing of them is accurate for these. Gleng 19:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it's funny that people who don't believe in vitalism are taking over this page. And it's pretty sad that those who really do believe in it have to check in daily to make sure the page is properly represented and accurate. People will be coming to this page to learn about vitalism, the concept, the philosophy. Now they have to wade through some skeptic pov. It's gotten out of hand. -- RealDefender 03:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I am pretty much new to this article and was invited here to here to put my two-cents in. I just read through the article and I think the editors here are all to be commended. For the most part, this seems to be a very informative, well-written article. The section that seemed to stick out the most to me in terms of poor craftsmanship of languange and inadequate information and general confused point is: Vitalist notions in alternative medicine. I hope I am not stepping on anyone's toes, I am just unsure what point is trying to be made here. I see one skeptic's (Williams) view of vitalistism presented sort of disjointly and then Hahnemann's theories of vitalism and homeopathy's movement away from those theories. I guess this section just leaves me confused. I'm not sure if it needs to be flushed out and written better or if it should just get removed.
Anyhow, like I said, I'm new here so I'll just sit back and watch for a while until I get a handle on where you all are at here. Levine2112 05:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I think RealDefender is absolutely on the money. I also think that Jeffire is absolutely right when he says the article has suffered from to-ing and fro-ing. I suggest that the article cannot be rebuilt from the present state, but should either revert to the version before I was involved, or the version at the point I left. What KV has essentially done is to vandalise an article in order to use it to expound a POV. My basic premise is you don't start with an opinion and try to fit the text around it, but start from the sources (the V RS) and follow where they lead, reporting the sources.
So that's my advice, revert to [15] add in the missing (failed link), and see where you want to go then. My advice on controversial articles from a starting point is that any changes that are disputable (ie introduction of disputed facts or opinions) should be agreed on the Talk page before they are implemented, not placed first and then argued about. That revert and link fix will be my last changes here. If they are sustained or not ill not be my concern; I think that every source in this article is one that I supplied, and I don't believe that this revert removes any other sourced facts. It has removed a reference that might be incorporated, I suggest that the source is read carefully for context, and that you ask whether the information given is opinion or fact, make sure it's identified, and consider whether, if it is an opinion, is it notable, and is it uncontroversial. My advice, you don't have to follow it.
This is my last post on these pages or on any article or article Talk pages. I've left a statement on my user page (and a short test for skeptics) Gleng
Gleng has put a lot of work into the history of vitalism on this page. I would like to see it mostly preserved as it is all verified with reliable sources. Let's try not to alter it too much, though adding to it is what he would expect. Hopefully, the end result will be an educational experience for all who stop by here. Do we all agree, or am I barking up a dead tree:) -- Dematt 17:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
-->Please take the time to read this: A short test for skeptics and scientists
Thanks Gleng, like others, I will miss you and your high quality edits and always professional demeanor. All the best, Steth 21:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. KY, if you lied to us in the past, how do we know you are not lying to us now? Steth 04:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I thought I was being civil. I just don't have to believe you since your fabrications have been documented and exposed in the Pseudoscience - Proof of Krishna Vindaloo's lying to the WP community article. It is a verifiable reference. Since we don't have to assume good faith from you anymore according to WP policy, I just can't be sure you are telling us the truth now. It's not about homosexuality, reparative therapy, vitalism or chiropractic. It is about you lying to us. Is that so difficult to understand?
So go ahead, post away, see if that helps your credibility index. Steth 12:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
This is the whole vitalism in science section:
This is the section that you wanted out or reworded. Can we try rewording first. What would you change?
-- Dematt 15:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I made an application for RfC. [18]. Its an RfC on Steth specifically, but it involves other editors, to be fair. Feel free to comment. KrishnaVindaloo 03:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
"it is not easy to distinguish objectively between vitalism and contemporary scientific theories of complex systems, as explicitly recognized in a review entitled Molecular 'vitalism' published in Cell" <-- please provide the exact quote from this article that explicitly says it is not easy to distinguish objectively between vitalism and a contemporary scientific theory. -- JWSchmidt 13:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
This claim was in the section above the table of contents: "In the Western tradition, these vital forces were identified as the humours". This idea is not discussed in the remaining sections of the article. -- JWSchmidt 13:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. There had been no improvements to the POV pushing OR lines that were placed in the article, so I removed or placed them in more appropriate areas of the article. If anyone finds any other similar OR lines, please feel free to delete or re-arrange. KrishnaVindaloo 07:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Here I’m placing extracts from relevant discussions on Talk pages (mine and JWS). I’m clearing my User page now as I’m leaving WP
The first sentence predates my involvement, and I didn't question it seeing it as uncontroversial. Maybe the editorial, Nat Biotechnol. 2004 Oct;22(10):1191 would do? The psychology reference related back to what had previously said in the article, and the relevant citation was [19]. This citation displays the controversy but actually presents an anti vitalist view (..the box to the article declares that it represents a POV opposite to others presented at the meeting; perhaps this reference should be flagged with the note that its views were a minority view.) On emergence etc, again the sentence refers back to things that existed/exist in the article.”
a) whether a Penn state sophomore writing for an in-house undergraduate journal [20] is a notable source of opinion [21]
b) whether a popular book entitled “Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience, from Alien abductions to Zone Therapy” is an appropriate source of fact anywhere in WP. (see [22] for a review of it from a skeptical perspective; note the last sentence of that review in particular).
The editorial in Nature Biotechnology begins with a quote from Sydney Brenner "In one way, you could say all the genetic and molecular biological work of the last 60 years could be considered a long interlude...We have come full circle—back to the problems left behind unsolved. How does a wounded organism regenerate exactly the same structure it had before? How does the egg form the organism? In the next 25 years, we are going to have to teach biologists another language...I don't know what it's called yet; nobody knows..."
and goes on to say
Delivered over 30 years ago, Brenner's cautionary words resound even more forcefully today. Although we may now have a term, 'systems biology,' for his 'language' (the focus of this issue), the central problem remains: how to transform molecular knowledge into an understanding of complex phenomena in cells, tissues, organs and organisms? In the intervening decades, we have become spectacularly successful at creating inventories of genes, proteins and metabolites, but remained spectacularly average at pinpointing key points for medical intervention in disease pathways or determining which recombinant gene(s) to add to generate a complex trait. There is no clear connection between molecular description and such 'systems' phenomena.
Gleng 09:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm just wondering how justified it is to essentialy claim that Driesch's decline in reputation was a direct result of being a vitalist. The cite is of the opinion that it is, but I'm not sure if it could be considered entirely authoritive on this exact topic, as it doesn't seem to have much to reference that statement. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just worried about our certainty given the previous wording. If it could be substantiated from anouther source that would be grand. In the meantime I've reworded it so that the switch to vitalism and decline in reputation are juxtaposed, but not exclicately linked. Jefffire 16:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I doubt Dennett repeated the word "some" in the quote of his about elan vital. Some some typo, most likely. Accordingly, I just deleted the duplicate. In general about the section, though: Since the opinions here are all negative, shouldn't the section be called something more appropriate, like "Critics of...."? -- Christofurio 14:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I like that title for that section. Thanks, KV. -- Dematt 01:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
There was a jumbled mess of thrust and parry in the criticism section obviously argued by a vitalism proponent against the criticism. The main thrust is that where vitalism has been able to be subject to tests and has been tested it is falsified, but nonetheless, there exist supporters of vitalism which retain belief in these aspects despite falsification in a fashion that is essentially a pseudoscientific rejection of falsifiability. This makes those features of vitalism essentially "unfalsifiable" in that the supporters keep moving the testability bar in order to maintain their belief (a hallmark of pseudoscience). -- ScienceApologist 19:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, thanks SA. I also removed a lot of Glengs old OR from the relation to emergentism section. Emergentism is associated with vitalism, but only in that some researchers say that emergentism sometimes goes the way of vitalism in that it works against the scientific method and objective measures, and moves towards postmodern new age belief systems. KrishnaVindaloo 16:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Source | Specific term |
---|---|
Ancient Egypt | Ankh |
Ancient Greece | Pneuma |
Anthroposophical medicine | Formative force, ether body, astral body |
Ayurvedic medicine (Hindu) | Prana |
Chiropractic | Innate intelligence |
Druidry | Awen |
Energy medicine | Energy body, aura, Kirlian effect, etc. |
Homeopathy | Vital energy |
Magnetic healing (Mesmerism) | Animal magnetism |
Naturopathy | Vis Medicatrix Naturae |
Primitive medicine | Mana, orenda, tane, gana, sila, oki, etc. |
Radiesthesia/Medical | Dowsing Radiation |
Reichian psychotherapy | Orgone energy |
Scientology | Life force |
Therapeutic touch | Prana |
Traditional Chinese Medicine/Taoism | Chi, Qi, Ki (Qi Gong "Master" healers) |
Wicca (ancient fertility religion) | Unspecified (use "pranic healing" ritual) |
This table isn't perfect yet, but let's work on it. I've been working on it for awhile. It's a recreation of something I found here. It was probably made by Dr. William Jarvis (now retired), who is - along with Stephen Barrett - one of the world's leading experts on quackery and health fraud. We can adapt and add to this table, using wording that is easily wikilinked. It will be a great addition to the article.
Some headings need centering, and I'm not sure if the other contents should be centered or left-aligned. -- Fyslee 20:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Levine2112. Are you trying to solve a problem, or are you just trying to boot the table? I will make some really easy adjustments. KrishnaVindaloo 11:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Source | Specific Term |
---|---|
Ancient Egypt | Ankh |
Ancient Greece | Pneuma |
Anthroposophical medicine | Formative force, ether body, astral body |
Ayurvedic medicine ( Hindu) | Prana |
Traditional Chinese Medicine/ Taoism | Chi, Qi, Ki ( Qi Gong "Master" healers) |
Primitive medicine/ Traditional medicine | Mana, orenda, tane, gana, sila, oki, etc. |
Wicca (ancient fertility religion) | Unspecified (use " pranic healing" ritual) |
Druidry | Awen |
Energy medicine | Energy body, aura, Kirlian effect, etc. |
Radiesthesia | Dowsing/ Pendulum Radiation |
Magnetic healing ( Mesmerism) | Animal magnetism |
Naturopathy | Vis Medicatrix Naturae |
Homeopathy | Vital energy |
Chiropractic | Innate intelligence |
Reichian therapy | Orgone energy |
Scientology | Life force |
Therapeutic touch | Prana |
I have copied it here for us to work on, and just begun to do a bit. -- Fyslee 16:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Good point. Vitalism isn't just about healing, but has been an element in many things throughout history. Here are some more topics of relevance. Some of them could be added to the table:
This article could be the main article (!!!!) for a new category - [[Category:Vitalism]]. There are quite a few articles here that could be part of that category. This means that this article suddenly takes a very central and defining role here. A number of them are probably already listed here. -- Fyslee 19:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The category is in place and functioning. The link is at the bottom of the article.
The next task is to make sure that all those subjects are somehow linked to this article. They nearly always contain words that can be wikilinked to this article. -- Fyslee 09:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
If we put the name first, it may be easier to keep in chronological order. Okay? -- Dematt 02:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Term | Period | Origin |
---|---|---|
Chi, Qi, Ki, Yin and Yang | 5000 BC | Traditional Chinese Medicine/ Taoism |
3000 BC | Ancient Egypt | |
Pneuma, |
Ancient Greece | |
Formative force, etheric body, astral body | Anthroposophical medicine | |
Chakra, Dosha, Prana, Humours (Ayurveda) | Ayurvedic medicine ( Hindu) | |
Mana, |
Primitive medicine/ Traditional medicine | |
Unspecified (use " pranic healing" ritual) | Wicca (ancient fertility religion) | |
Awen | Druidry | |
Energy (healing or psychic or spiritual), Aura (paranormal), Biofield, etc. | Energy medicine/ Alternative medicine | |
Animal magnetism | 1750 | Magnetic healing ( Mesmerism) |
Vital energy | 1800 | Homeopathy |
Innate Intelligence | 1906 | Chiropractic |
Vis medicatrix naturae | 1900s | Naturopathy |
Orgone energy | 1930 | Reichian therapy |
Life force | 1952 | Scientology |
Prana | 1970s | Therapeutic touch |
I put some dates preliminary dates in to see what it would look like. -- Dematt 02:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The following list includes several terms from the table above, has eliminate some of them as they are to actual "things" (gods, personages, etc..), and includes a number of terms not found in the table, but found here at Wikipedia. I have deliberately eliminated words that only redirect to this article.
Feel free to add comments and more concepts. If you feel a concept doesn't belong here, then strike it out and explain why (a few words). The list also needs time periods and Origins, so some new items can be incorporated in the table above. --
Fyslee 20:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Animal magnetism - included above
Astral body - included
Aura (paranormal) - included
Awen - included
Biofield - included
Chi - included
Chakra - included
Dosha - included
Élan vital or Vital Force
Energy (healing or psychic or spiritual) - included
Etheric body - included
Humours (Ayurveda) - included
Innate Intelligence - included
Ki - included
Life force - included
Mana - included
Orgone energy - included
Pneuma - included
Prana - included
Qi - included
Yin and Yang - included
I am unsure if this warrants two separate articles with disambiguation or if there is room for this in just one article. A distinction can be drawn between the "classical vitalism" described already in this article and a "modern vitalism" that can be accommodated by conventional biomedical science. This modern vitalism is best described by the phrase vis medicatrix naturae – the healing power of nature. The truth of this proposition is indisputable. Nature, or more specifically, the body's natural healing mechanisms, is the principle mechanism by which any healing process occurs. Without these natural mechanisms (our immune system, our wound healing capacity, and countless other regulatory and corrective systems) life itself is barely possible.
In terms of chiropractic - the field which I feel most comfortable speaking about - the vitalist notion of Innate intelligence is truly this modern version of vitalism. Other than in a historical sense, I have never learned that Innate intelligence does not refers to any quasi-religious force, but rather just the body's innate ability to heal itself. This is one of the distinct qualities which defines living tissue from the dead or inorganic. This is modern vitalism... and I am sure it is not only limited to chiropractic, but in many healing disciplines including modern medicine. I think a distinction needs to be made to disambiguate between the two concepts... classical vitalism being unverifiable and modern vitalism being indisputable. I realize that this distinction is touched upon, but I think it can be made more clear. I certainly think it is unfair to place something that is entirely real under an umbrella which includes terms such as pseudoscience and obsolete scientific theories. Levine2112 02:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
While there is some amazing information in this new section, I think it breaks the "no essays" policies of Wikipedia. It seems to take Carey's points about the scientific method and be applying it to information about Vitalism (and then coming to the conclusion that therefore Vitalism is pseudoscience), thus creating a WP:OR. It would be one thing if Carey was making this evaluation of Vitalism (or some other second-party source), but to me - and I may very well be wrong - it appears that the editor who made this edit is applying Carey's verifiable views to the verifiable concepts of Vitalism. Thus a WP:OR violation is created. While I would hate to delete it all, it would seem that this is warranted.
Also, I don't think using bold on the article mainspace is a good idea. Levine2112 19:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Megsherer, thanks for the large volume of information:) It looks like it took a lot of work and I, for one, apprectiate your efforts. I am concerned that there is a lot of: X is baloney and X is vitalism, therefore all vitalism is baloney. That in itself would be considered a logical fallacy. That is not insurmountable and we may be able to work it in. However, the bigger problem is the use of the "guidelines for distinguishing between pseudoscience (which is a large gray area mass;) and correctly applied sciences." For instance, no one knows how may of these guidelines a particular science has to fit in before it qualifies. It is very subjective and is not for us to decide. For something as pejorative as the PS label, WP cannot make judgements. We have to rely on verifiable and reliable sources and even then should state it as opinion as we have done in the critiques section. Otherwise it is WP:OR. When using this type of format, we could create anything we wanted and that is not our job as editors, no matter what we think we know.
Anyway, since there is so much, maybe we need to work with it here. The first step is getting rid of the bold as per WP guidelines format. -- Dematt 04:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Stephen Carey provides a guideline for distinguishing between pseudoscience and correctly applied sciences.
[2] Vitalism can be critically evaluated in terms of Carey's criteria as follows:
1. Pseudosciences often use flawed reasoning in an attempt to explain their theories.
[2] Examples that can be interpreted as fallacious reasoning are below.
: a. The use of well established theory to strengthen a theory that has yet to gain any scientific acceptance can lead to a fallacy that Carey describes as an unsupported analogy or similarity.
[2] Vitalism, or bioenergy, is often explained as being an electromagnetic(EM) field and is supported by the theory of quantum physics.
[3] Joanne Stefanatos states that "The principles of energy medicine originate in quantum physics."
[4] Victor Stenger
[5] offers several explanations as to why this line of reasoning may be misplaced. He explains that energy is recognized as matter and exists in discrete packets called quanta. The quanta of EM fields are known to be photons. Energy fields are composed of their componet parts and so only exist when quanta are present. Therefor energy fields are not holistic, but are rather a system of discreet parts that must obey by the laws of physics. This also means that energy fields are not instantaneous. These facts of quantum physics place limitations on the infinite, continuous field that is used by some theorists to describe so-called "human energy fields".
[6] Stenger continues, explaining that the effects of EM forces have been measured by physicists as accurately as one part in a billion and there is yet to be any evidence that living organisms emit a unique field.
[5]
: b. Arguments by elimination occur when two explanations are offered, one is rejected and so the second explanation is assumed to be correct. However, showing that an explanation is false does not provide evidence for the validity of the second explanation. The explanations provided are necessarily encompassing and there may be an untested explanation that better describes the phenomenon.
[2] Rubik admits that most research on biofield therapies test the effectiveness of reduced anxiety and pain in patients.
[3] These qualitative experiments often do not take into account other factors, and so reduced pain may occur when biofield therapies are applied, but this is not empirical evidence for the existance of a vital force. Carey points out that many ailments go away within 90 days even when untreated.
[2]
: c. The appearance of a desired effect or anomaly can be created when certain facts are omitted, content is distorted, or the claim relies heavily on anecdotal evidence.
[2] A product called VitalForce claims to infuse other products such as salt or Kava Kava with energy patterns that are described as subtle energy. This range of energies is claimed to produce varied beneficial results that can be applied to humans, animals, or agriculture. The research portion of their website begins with a lengthy letter from a veterinarian professing the effectiveness of the VitalForce product. In one experiment test subjects (humans) are exposed to energy patterns by drinkind water infused with subtle energy and their
auras are interpreted using
Kirlian photography.
[7] However, "auras" may actually be the result of thermal movement of infrared rediation that all objects emit. This is known as
black body radiation(Stenger 1999). Stenger also points out that Kirlian photography is the result of corona discharge that can be effected by differences in temperature and moisture levels, which may change as a person drinks water. Given the disputed nature of the aura along with the ability to manipulate Kirlian images, the Kirlian photographs are not acceptable evidence for a scientific study. Also applying
Ockham's Razor, a known physical phenomenon of black body radiation would be a more plausible explanation than an undetected, unique energy field.
[2]
: d. Any scientific experiment must be falsifiable and reproducible.
[2] Martha Rogers, the main theorist behind the Science of Unitary Human Beings, describes the human energy field as "an irreducible, indivisible, pandimensional energy field identified by pattern and manifesting characteristics that are specific to the whole and which cannot be predicted from knowledge of the parts."
[6] This holistic approach to understanding the bioenergy field does not allow for the ability to generate a hypothesis or repeat experiments if it cannot be predicted. Also any failed attempts to test the energy field could be dismissed as not encompassing the "whole" and therefore would not be falsifiable.
2. Most pseudosciences produce little explanatory theory.
[2] This can be shown for vitalism by the lack of empirical data produced through experimentation as well as the misapplied connection to quantum theory.
[5]
3. Skepticism is often viewed as a sign of narrow-mindedness.
[2] One example is given by a blog from Deepak Chopra on October 16, 2006, "It won't satisfy the skeptics at present, but despite their iron-clad objections, a strictly materialistic view of biology, evolution, and cosmology won't hold water."
[8]
4. Pseudosciences will usually show little change in their ideas over time.
[2] Within the practices of the biofield therapies
Qi-Gong is thought to be as old as 18 century BC,
chakra has been practiced since 8th century BC, and
Reiki was introduced in the early 20th century. Therapeutic Touch incorporates aspects of each of these, and
animal magnetism, which was theorized in the 18th century, is very similar to the ideas behind bioenergetic theories.
5. & 6. Two other signs that point to a pseudoscience are that they tend to not be self-correcting and can occur within the bounds of a legitimate science. The Science of Unitary Beings promotes human energy fields and is sometimes incorporated into nurse training
[6], and although human energy fields are not quantum physics, the quantum theory is often cited to explain human energy fields.
[3] Bioenergetic research almost never appears in scientific journals and the critical review is likely to be a scientist of an opposing discipline
[5] rather than another bioenergetic theorist. The research put forth by VitalForce showed no evidence of peer review and was published by the company that produces the product.
[7]
I changed the heading on this section. I think this is the link that we are missingin this article that will connect to Fyslee's table. We need to develop this section to describe how modern medicine started out all vitalistic and then the transition into scientific medicine with some of the unexplained CAMs remaining today. Then we should have most of the fields of science covered, other than maybe physics and, god forbid, ...evolution and ID?
OK, I know it's not our fault that the dictionary we're citing uses "vital" in the definition of "vitalism," but that's really not a helpful definition. I think we can do better, and I'm willing to help improve the intro if there is support for improving it. Ante lan talk 15:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it right to include the new-age's "vitalism", along with the more-scientific vitalism? some scientists belive we can't describe the life only by chemical and physical explanation, although they don't belive "spiritual" and mystical power of life.
Having said that, the connections of Sheldrake and Steiner with new age and vitalism are obscure and unreferenced - I do not think they belong here. It would be reasonable to mention that some obsolete ideas live on in popular imagination, I think, that's all. I do not think it right to suggest there is anything in common between these two people. It would be reasonable to mention Sheldrake in the context of holism, organicism and various theories of mind, being new formulations of concepts, once associated with the obsolete term vitalism, still tenable in the life sciences. Redheylin ( talk) 00:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Here's the statement I have removed;
However, opponents of vitalism argue that it is a remnant of prescientific thinking, since its core ideas are impossible to prove or disprove using scientific method. [1]
HERE'S THE TEXT CITED:
Vitalism, Purpose, and Superstition - A YouTube Abstract
"Vitalism—the insistence that there is some big, mysterious extra ingredient in all living things—turns out to have been not a deep insight but a failure of imagination." --Daniel Dennett
Vitalism is the metaphysical doctrine that living organisms possess a non-physical inner force or energy that gives them the property of life.
Vitalists believe that the laws of physics and chemistry alone cannot explain life functions and processes. Vitalism is opposed to mechanistic materialism and its thesis that life emerges from a complex combination of organic matter.
The vitalistic principle goes by many names: chi or qi (China) prana (India and therapeutic touch), ki (Japan); Wilhelm Reich's orgone, Mesmer's animal magnetism, Bergson's élan vital (vital force), etc. American advocates much prefer the term energy. Many kinds of alternative therapies or energy medicines are based upon a belief that health is determined by the flow of this alleged energy. For examples, see acupuncture, Ayurvedic medicine, therapeutic touch, reiki, and qigong.
Energy medicine is a placebo, leading many advocates to mistake the effects of classical conditioning, expectation of relief that leads to reduction of anxiety and stress, and beliefs about the effectiveness of the medicine as effects of mythical energy.
See also magical thinking and superstition.
There is no mention of testability or pre-science in the cited source. The statement lacks citation and at present is editorial POV. Thanks Redheylin ( talk) 18:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
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